[James Bond Next level]

After the n-th post here about "I can get 7s but 8s are out of my reach" or "just marry a plain 6 and nobody will flirt with her" I thought it was time to add my insights on the subject:

Game is NOT linear, the degree of hotness of the girl is not the only factor in play to determine the level of game required to get her.

But guess what, if you still think like it, you will never get quality girls as you (subconsciously) are firing on your foot. We men like simplicity, but life especially humans are not linear.
Some personal experiences on the matter:

I was once in a nightclub and saw a legit whale, really obese and whatnot. She was dancing alone with 4 betas around her, all of them trying to get her. I'm sure each of them thought "she's ugly so I have my chance with her".
Another time, I was speaking with a really hot girl (8+ easily) and when I dig deep, I learned how alone she felt, how she hadn't been with a guy for 2 years and thought guys were either scared to talk to her or were doing bad game as they were intimidated.

As 95% of guys have low self esteem and think "she's ugly so she's easy", I believe that if we knew the reality, we would see that a lot of sub-average girls are chased like crazy and some hot girls way less than we would think.
Real game is not just learning simple tricks to bed women, otherwise they will leave sooner or later. That's why it's vital to slowly change your core and get to a level where you really believe you deserve a quality girl.

No matter who you choose, there will always be some other guys trying to get her. Work on your value, learn to deal with your insecurities and be firm from time to time if the girl is getting out of line. Remind her too that she has reason to be jealous, you're an attractive man with options after all.

Now, I'm not saying everyone can get a 10, but everyone with the right mindset can get quality girls.
Tip: It helps to see her as a normal human being, with some things you don't like but can tolerate.

Now if some guys still think it's all theory, I will finish by saying that my ex was an 8 and due to her situation, she had 2-3 new guys each day hitting on her. I never felt jealousy, but laughter and sadness by seeing all these pathetic men disrespecting themselves. I kept an eye open of course, but I felt safe and never had a problem.

[AceP]

(05-18-2018 07:08 AM)James Bond Next level Wrote:  

After the n-th post here about "I can get 7s but 8s are out of my reach" or "just marry a plain 6 and nobody will flirt with her" I thought it was time to add my insights on the subject:

Game is NOT linear, the degree of hotness of the girl is not the only factor in play to determine the level of game required to get her.

But guess what, if you still think like it, you will never get quality girls as you (subconsciously) are firing on your foot. We men like simplicity, but life especially humans are not linear.
Some personal experiences on the matter:

I was once in a nightclub and saw a legit whale, really obese and whatnot. She was dancing alone with 4 betas around her, all of them trying to get her. I'm sure each of them thought "she's ugly so I have my chance with her".
Another time, I was speaking with a really hot girl (8+ easily) and when I dig deep, I learned how alone she felt, how she hadn't been with a guy for 2 years and thought guys were either scared to talk to her or were doing bad game as they were intimidated.

As 95% of guys have low self esteem and think "she's ugly so she's easy", I believe that if we knew the reality, we would see that a lot of sub-average girls are chased like crazy and some hot girls way less than we would think.
Real game is not just learning simple tricks to bed women, otherwise they will leave sooner or later. That's why it's vital to slowly change your core and get to a level where you really believe you deserve a quality girl.

No matter who you choose, there will always be some other guys trying to get her. Work on your value, learn to deal with your insecurities and be firm from time to time if the girl is getting out of line. Remind her too that she has reason to be jealous, you're an attractive man with options after all.

Now, I'm not saying everyone can get a 10, but everyone with the right mindset can get quality girls.
Tip: It helps to see her as a normal human being, with some things you don't like but can tolerate.

Now if some guys still think it's all theory, I will finish by saying that my ex was an 8 and due to her situation, she had 2-3 new guys each day hitting on her. I never felt jealousy, but laughter and sadness by seeing all these pathetic men disrespecting themselves. I kept an eye open of course, but I felt safe and never had a problem.

Couldn't agree more.

There's also an OKC research regarding that an equally attractive women (or even a more attractive women) doesn't necessarily get the same amount of messages if other men feels they have lots of competition or (this girl will get a ton of messages each day, so I'm not even gonna try)

Great mindset share brother.

EDIT: So I've tried finding that research article blog about it, apparently the author deleted it. The feminists must've gotten to him :/

[Marmite]

Quote:

Now if some guys still think it's all theory, I will finish by saying that my ex was an 8 and due to her situation, she had 2-3 new guys each day hitting on her. I never felt jealousy, but laughter and sadness by seeing all these pathetic men disrespecting themselves. I kept an eye open of course, but I felt safe and never had a problem.

How were they being pathetic, and disrespecting themselves by hitting on her?

[James Bond Next level]

(05-18-2018 12:36 PM)Marmite Wrote:  

Quote:

Now if some guys still think it's all theory, I will finish by saying that my ex was an 8 and due to her situation, she had 2-3 new guys each day hitting on her. I never felt jealousy, but laughter and sadness by seeing all these pathetic men disrespecting themselves. I kept an eye open of course, but I felt safe and never had a problem.

How were they being pathetic, and disrespecting themselves by hitting on her?

Four guys competing for attention with an ugly girl (the kind no man should even touch) is too much, even for a beta. Having a little self respect is prefering getting nothing than this. It was like the whale had 4 puppets

[HankMoody]

Funny how it works.

When I got divorced, I figured I'd go for the 5s and 6s to "learn". I had a relatively low opinion of my ability to meet women. (This is before I got into game).

Some successes, many failures. Many failures. I felt like it almost confirmed my opinion of my ability to meet women.

Then I read every book on game I could find. After having a bit of successes, I started going after hotter chicks, and even getting them. My game got way better, and I became completely at ease around hot women. Touching them, flirting with them, asking them out. My social circle also became filled with hot women. Five years later, talking to and hitting on hot women is easy.

I found that in general, they're much more pleasant to be around. They're also surprised by men who aren't intimidated by them, and won't bend over backwards for them. (though sometimes they end up going with these total betas, and you wonder what happened). They're usually fun and easygoing.

However, I also observed that they can coast by in life because orbiters will always buy them drinks, presents, give them easy jobs, etc. Bartenders give them free drinks and clubs never charge them a cover. (some places require a certain ratio). They can also always "model" on Instagram, be a waitress, stripper, bartender, "in advertising", etc. If they own a business or are in sales, they can simply flirt (or sleep with) customers / clients. It's insane how much men will bend over for hot women that they're not even banging. That's also the reason they're usually fun and easy going -- they don't need any real responsibility.

People talk about "white male privilege?" "Hot female privilege" is an actual privilege. Men work hard jobs; hot women can do whatever they want. I don't know any voluntarily unemployed hot women, and I knew very few with jobs that are challenging.

In any event, tangent aside, you're correct -- game is not linear. I've gotten blown out by more 6s than 8s.

[pargan]

I'm wondering how credible is the statement that many seem to make that hot girls don't go hit on as much and get as much attention as ugly girls? People often say hotter girls have lower self esteem and I'm wondering if these statements have any truth to them.

[Razor Beast]

Not sure how accurate this is anymore with the advent of dating apps and social media. 18-22 yr old girls have grown up with social media from a very young age. Unless your 8+ girl lives on a farm in the middle of nowhere this just doesn't happen anymore, although this wouldn't have been unheard of 20 years ago. 8+ western girl without social media in 2018? I'd have to call that a unicorn.

[dknightbro]

Agreed that game is not linear.

You can meet a 5 who gives you a ton of BS due to delusion or an 8 or above who is into you right off the bat.

This is why you should approach any girl you find attractive. You simply do not know how she will react & you might be her type.

What game can be, however, is systematic. This is critical for hard newbies who have no intuitive sense of how to interact with women.

To mold your identity from a straight-cut, well-rounded dude to a red-pilled player takes a massive amount of patience, discipline, & tenacity. (Ironically, you're becoming a worse person to get these girls. I really don't believe game makes you a better guy. All the top players I know are some kind of messed up in the head. It does, however, make you a guy who is better able to navigate society to get what you want.)

Just because the 8 or above is into you right off the bat doesn't mean you can disregard game. In fact, you NEED game to convert that interest into a result. That's all game is really. Conversion of those who are into you + those on the fence into a close.

Extreme players who want a challenge target those who are way, way on the fence. Whether that's a good use of your time depends on your game goals.

Learning game takes an incredible amount of effort + self-awareness. Effort without self-awareness leads to plateaus & frustration. Self-awareness without effort leads to overthinking & no results. A healthy balance of both is required to continually improve at game.

[RatInTheWoods]

Attraction is a funny thing.

If you got that strange collection of quirky things that rings an 8's bell she will go for it, meanwhile a fat SMV-3 chick will brush you off because she doesn't like untattooed dudes or something else random.

Also, its tempting to game 5-6 because of laziness or fear of rejection, but once you go fishing for 6-8 and you catch a few, its no looking back!

[torridon747]

What makes leads you to think game makes you a worse person?

Id say it gives you access to more choices all with varying degrees of difficulty and short/long term repercussions. To generalize: bad choices are usually easier and more impulsive and if you have the tools to make more of them and you do it's something you should think about. I wouldn't lay the blame on game alone.

It may be just me but when speaking about strategic long term Machiavellian shit I find the more honest options easier and less stressful

[tobehero]

It was an old school way of teaching game to make it easier to understand for newbies.

There is now so much material,you could go in any direction.

[AceP]

(05-18-2018 01:03 PM)James Bond Next level Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 12:36 PM)Marmite Wrote:  

Quote:

Now if some guys still think it's all theory, I will finish by saying that my ex was an 8 and due to her situation, she had 2-3 new guys each day hitting on her. I never felt jealousy, but laughter and sadness by seeing all these pathetic men disrespecting themselves. I kept an eye open of course, but I felt safe and never had a problem.

How were they being pathetic, and disrespecting themselves by hitting on her?

Four guys competing for attention with an ugly girl (the kind no man should even touch) is too much, even for a beta. Having a little self respect is prefering getting nothing than this. It was like the whale had 4 puppets

Yeah this is probably the most depressing thing. So many thirsty beta guys giving the super ugliest their times of day. With the rise of social media and the ability for women to find the top 20% of guys (especially when hot 10 guys would date down to HB6s) it doesn't help that the other 80% only gets more thirsty.

[Saweeep]

You guys are all kidding yourselves if you think that 8s and 9s are not getting hit on a hundred times per day.

The reason for this is that the info is coming from the girls themselves...they really mean "I rarely get hit on by guys I consider good enough for me".

[James Bond Next level]

(05-18-2018 07:57 PM)Razor Beast Wrote:  

Not sure how accurate this is anymore with the advent of dating apps and social media. 18-22 yr old girls have grown up with social media from a very young age. Unless your 8+ girl lives on a farm in the middle of nowhere this just doesn't happen anymore, although this wouldn't have been unheard of 20 years ago. 8+ western girl without social media in 2018? I'd have to call that a unicorn.

Because the first mistake a lot of players make is to chase them on social media. Tinder especially is NOT designed for average looking guys no matter their game level. Put the same guy in the street/bar and make him approach an 8+ and you might be surprised sometime...

To sum up my point of this thread: forget about the competition, be it in front of you or hypothetical. Don't aim low, stay confident in yourself and flip that stone.
Don't forget that maybe 5% of guys know game. Among them, maybe 10% have decent game at least. Take into account compatibility and you would finish with a total < 0.1%. Now of course if you only flirt with sluts or social media addict, it doesn't apply. But even for a pessimist like myself, I met regularly girls like that, just forget clubs and tinder.

[AceP]

(05-20-2018 03:13 PM)James Bond Next level Wrote:  

(05-18-2018 07:57 PM)Razor Beast Wrote:  

Not sure how accurate this is anymore with the advent of dating apps and social media. 18-22 yr old girls have grown up with social media from a very young age. Unless your 8+ girl lives on a farm in the middle of nowhere this just doesn't happen anymore, although this wouldn't have been unheard of 20 years ago. 8+ western girl without social media in 2018? I'd have to call that a unicorn.

Because the first mistake a lot of players make is to chase them on social media. Tinder especially is NOT designed for average looking guys no matter their game level. Put the same guy in the street/bar and make him approach an 8+ and you might be surprised sometime...

To sum up my point of this thread: forget about the competition, be it in front of you or hypothetical. Don't aim low, stay confident in yourself and flip that stone.
Don't forget that maybe 5% of guys know game. Among them, maybe 10% have decent game at least. Take into account compatibility and you would finish with a total < 0.1%. Now of course if you only flirt with sluts or social media addict, it doesn't apply. But even for a pessimist like myself, I met regularly girls like that, just forget clubs and tinder.

Couldn't agree more.

Aim for the Stars and land on the Moon.

To add to OP's topic. Game is constantly changing, it's just like the arms race in the cold wars. The same tactics used a couple years ago will or will not work now. You always have to keep aiming high, not lowering your standards and still try to be a step ahead of the competition.

[Neo]

(05-19-2018 01:57 AM)Saweeep Wrote:  

You guys are all kidding yourselves if you think that 8s and 9s are not getting hit on a hundred times per day.

The reason for this is that the info is coming from the girls themselves...they really mean "I rarely get hit on by guys I consider good enough for me".

I agree with this. Unless she's in a remote part of the country where there is a scarcity of men she's getting hit on one way or another.

But to the original question, most guys can get high quality girls with time and effort, but they have to morph into the type of guys that these girls go for. This doesn't mean changing who you are at your core, but bringing out different parts of yourself and just working on all the things we speak about on the forum. You also have to go after 7+ who go for men like yourself. For example I don't do too well with the 7+ hair dresser types, but other guys do.
But give me a 7/8+ who likes someone intelligent who can speak with sophistication and I do much better. Of course the pipeline will never be all 7s and above.

I heard this advice a long time ago, but I haven't seen it posted here in a while. When you a see an 8+ with a guy, study the guy. What qualities does he have that are attracting her? How does he carry himself? Talk? Walk? Act?

Sometimes it's obvious, other times it isn't, but I guarantee you will learn something by doing this.

[Dalaran1991]

I can only agree that eventually, if you see a girl you like, doesn't matter a 6 or an 8, just go for her.

At this point in my game journey, I prefer to not think at all about a sittuation, and stick to a textbook program (they are all the same in the end) with minor adjustments.

There are so many factors in play, that trying to make general rules is futile.

EDITED/SNIP: Just enjoy the game and enjoy the girl.

[gework]

(05-18-2018 07:08 AM)James Bond Next level Wrote:  

Another time, I was speaking with a really hot girl (8+ easily) and when I dig deep, I learned how alone she felt, how she hadn't been with a guy for 2 years and thought guys were either scared to talk to her or were doing bad game as they were intimidated.

OKCupid messaging by attractiveness.

[James Bond Next level]

(05-20-2018 07:43 PM)gework Wrote:  

OKCupid messaging by attractiveness.

Great find gework, thanks! The left curve is exactly how I would imagine it and explain why an 8 might be easier to game than a 7. Indeed, even though the curve scale isn't like our hot scale, I would say the peak of message received is for a 7. Why? Because the 7 is for most guys approachable, sufficiently hot (cute typically) and sufficiently common so guys think they have their chance. That makes her our typical "girl being hit on day and night wherever she goes" and coincides with my experience: some of the most approached girls I knew where in that range.

Now as the girl gets hotter, some guys start to be scared off and insecure: "she wants a man who has it all", "no chance unless you're a millionaire playboy", etc. Hence the decline in the curve.

Moral of the story? Your "safe" 7 GF is maybe the worst in terms of being approached. It doesn't mean you should dump her of course.
Personally I think an 8 is the best choice: hotter, less competition, still in enough quantity and not sufficiently hot to really aim for the top 0.1% of guys. Besides you can still find down-to-earth 8 whereas 9 or higher are very few and are usually bitch.

However keep in mind these are generalities, statistics, meaning maybe 90% of girls you approach will be typical, but 10% will not. Like Krauser said, treat her at the start of the interaction like a typical girl and then refine as you progress in the interaction.