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Debate on Single-Sex Education
#1

Debate on Single-Sex Education

From: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/educat...ingle.html

Quote:Quote:

Single-Sex Education Is Assailed in ReportBy TAMAR LEWIN
Published: September 22, 2011 Single-sex education is ineffective, misguided and may actually increase gender stereotyping, a paper to be published Friday asserts.

The report, “The Pseudoscience of Single Sex Schooling,” to be published in Science magazine by eight social scientists who are founders of the nonprofit American Council for CoEducational Schooling, is likely to ignite a new round of debate and legal wrangling about the effects of single-sex education.

It asserts that “sex-segregated education is deeply misguided and often justified by weak, cherry-picked or misconstrued scientific claims rather than by valid scientific evidence.”

But the strongest argument against single-sex education, the article said, is that it reduces boys’ and girls’ opportunities to work together, and reinforces sex stereotypes. “Boys who spend more time with other boys become increasingly aggressive,” the article said. “Similarly, girls who spend more time with other girls become more sex-typed.”

The authors are psychologists and neuroscientists from several universities who have researched and written on sex differences and sex roles. The Science article is not based on new research, but rather is a review of existing research and writing.

The lead author, Diane F. Halpern, is a past president of the American Psychological Association who holds a chair in psychology at Claremont McKenna College in California. She is an expert witness in litigation in which the American Civil Liberties Union is challenging single-sex classes — which have been suspended — at a school in Vermilion Parish, La.

Arguing that no scientific evidence supports the idea that single-sex schooling results in better academic outcomes, the article calls on the Education Department to rescind its 2006 regulations weakening the Title IX prohibition against sex discrimination in education. Under those rules, single-sex classes may be permitted as long as they are voluntary, students have a substantially equal coeducational option and the school reasonably believes separation will produce better academic outcomes.

Russlynn H. Ali, the assistant secretary for civil rights at the Education Department, said it was reviewing the research. “There are case studies that have been done that show some benefit of single-sex, but like lots of other educational research, it’s mixed,” she said. “When you’re talking about separating students, treating them differently, you want to do it in a way that’s constitutional, and you want to make sure that there is adequate justification. We certainly want to safeguard against stereotyping.”

The article comes at a time when single-sex education is on the rise. There were only two single-sex public schools in the mid-1990s; today, there are more than 500 public schools in 40 states that offer some single-sex academic classes or, more rarely, are entirely single sex.

Many of them began separating the sexes because of a belief that boys and girls should be taught differently that grew out of popular books, speeches and workshops by Michael Gurian, Leonard Sax and others.

Dr. Sax, executive director of the National Association of Single Sex Public Education, was singled out for criticism in the Science article, for his teachings that boys respond better to energetic, confrontational classrooms while girls need a gentler touch.

“A loud, cold classroom where you toss balls around, like Dr. Sax thinks boys should have, might be great for some boys, and for some girls, but for some boys, it would be living hell,” Dr. Halpern said in an interview. She said that while girls are better readers and get better grades, and boys are more likely to have reading disabilities, that does not mean that educators should use the group average to design different classrooms. “It’s simply not true that boys and girls learn differently,” she said. “Advocates for single-sex education don’t like the parallel with racial segregation, but the parallels are there. We used to believe that the races learned differently, too.”

Dr. Sax criticized the article on many counts, and said it did not fairly reflect his current views. He vehemently rejected the comparison to racial segregation, and the use of the term “sex segregation.” Legally, race is a suspect category, while sex is not.

“We are not asserting that every child should be in a single-sex classroom, we are simply saying that there should be a choice,” Dr. Sax said in an interview.

The authors of the article, though, say that because there is no good scientific research backing such a choice, the government cannot lawfully offer single-sex education in public schools.

The article cites a review commissioned by the Education Department, comparing single-sex and coed outcomes, concluding that, “as in previous reviews,” the results are equivocal.

The article also said that research in other countries, and data from the Program for International Student Assessment, also found little overall difference between single-sex and coed academic outcomes.

While some studies have found better outcomes from single-sex schools, the article said, the purported advantages disappear when outcomes are corrected for pre-existing differences. For example, Chicago’s Urban Prep Charter Academy for Young Men, a school whose high college admissions rates were praised this year by Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, was subsequently criticized by the scholar Diane Ravitch as having test results that were actually lower than average on basic skills.

“This is very much a live issue, and I think it’s snowballing,” said Galen Sherwin, a staff lawyer for the Women’s Rights Project of the A.C.L.U., who is handling the Louisiana case. “I see news stories every single week about new proposals, usually based on the idea that boys and girls learn differently. Often it’s people who have attended training programs by Sax or Gurian, saying these programs will cater to boys’ and girls’ specific learning styles.”

Much of the impetus for single-sex public schooling came from popular books like Mary Pipher’s “Reviving Ophelia” and, especially, a 1992 report by the American Association of University Women, “How Schools Shortchange Girls.” But by 1998, when the association issued another report, saying that single-sex schooling was not the solution to problems of gender equity, the pendulum had swung, with boys’ difficulties in school receiving more attention, in part because of books like Dr. Sax’s “Why Gender Matters” and Mr. Gurian’s “The Wonder of Boys.”

If you read the article and the comments afterwards it starts to get pretty ridiculous. I guess it's still taboo to acknowledge that men and women have fundamentally different brains in some respects, because the article outright denies this.

Some of the comments are loaded with charged language that should have been left in the 1960s about how "loud" classroom environments favor men and reinforce gender stereotypes in the classroom and the workplace, even though women are clearly outperforming men under our current educational model.

Everyone just wants to spit out slogans they've been hearing about gender for the past several decades instead of acknowledging what's right in front of their face.
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#2

Debate on Single-Sex Education

I went to an all boys private school for high school. For an average kid, going to one of these schools sans any concept of game creates an interesting (read: fucked up) trade-off.

Assume that kid wants to learn and enjoys classes that interest him. There is no better place to learn (aged 14-18) than at a single sex high school. I was always interested in literature, language and history. I had some great teachers, a sturdy workload and - as a result of my secondary education - a good base in each of these subjects. Books-wise, the education one receives at a single sex high school is top-notch.

Unfortunately (thanks in part to the "education professionals" quoted in the article) single sex education is outdated. I won't bore you with too many details but I went to a small K-8 school (35 people in my graduating class), there weren't many girls schools near my high school, I couldn't drive....

FUCK! Being fourteen or 15 with no women nearby is not cool. Education is partially about books but, at that age, a lack of daily exposure to the opposite sex can really set an otherwise well-adjusted kid back.

Granted, there are some "naturals" that did well with the girls based on status (lacrosse was a big deal, for instance), but the vast majority of men developed that pedestalized conservative ideal about women. They wound up dating and marrying their first or second serious girlfriend. I went to a lot of classmate weddings before age 25.

I think there was a time when single sex education was the ideal. Before women were a staple on college campuses, in the workplace, and before they made false rape allegations. Unless your kid is one of these naturals, or is exposed to girls on a daily basis outside of school, single sex education in our decaying culture is not a good idea.

Last thing, I took what those Jesuits said to heart and have always tried to think for myself. Without that intellectual curiousity that they helped foster I'd have never found out about game. Needless to say, as my married school friends now turn into my overweight divorced school friends, I am very thankful for game.
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#3

Debate on Single-Sex Education

I went to an all boys school for a good chunk of my schooling. It was great in some respects though it bothered me not having anything pretty to look at in class.

Quote:Quote:

But the strongest argument against single-sex education, the article said, is that it reduces boys’ and girls’ opportunities to work together, and reinforces sex stereotypes. “Boys who spend more time with other boys become increasingly aggressive,” the article said. “Similarly, girls who spend more time with other girls become more sex-typed.”

This is bullshit. In fact, the opposite happens. Boys become more beta and the girls less girly when segregated. There was less fighting in the playground and no pressure to look good in front of the girls. When I acted up in class at my mixed school it was to catch the attention of a girl. Without girls around the classroom was calmer and it was easier to focus.

The school admitted a small number of girls for the last two years of high school. When the girls started there, most of the boys had no idea about how to interact with them. They were pulling out chairs for them, helping them with their homework without expecting anything in return, holding open doors, etc. Scarcity mentality was rife with good reason, less than 10% of my year was girls.

At a nearby girls' school girls were more likely to get into science, maths and similar masculine subjects. This has been borne out in a lot of statistics and it amazes me that feminists conveniently overlook this. Socially it was worse for the girls; I know girls who really suffered in all girls' schools because the atmosphere was bitchy. The less popular girls had an especially tough time. There is less intrigue in an all male environment. A couple of punches might get thrown but after that it was back to getting along fine. Even the social outcasts didn't have a tough time as nobody had anything to prove by being nasty to them.

It really depends on what a child is best suited for. It's insane that we have a bunch of feminist ideologues manipulating science to refuse parents that choice.

Quote:Quote:

“A loud, cold classroom where you toss balls around, like Dr. Sax thinks boys should have, might be great for some boys, and for some girls, but for some boys, it would be living hell,”

This is a complete straw man. There is an educational crisis going on and boys are being outperformed by girls. This is because the way most teachers teach is better suited to girls. Be quiet, don't ask too many questions and learn by rote. Memorize facts and let's not worry about the big picture. How did these historical facts come to be accepted as facts? Don't worry about that, just learn the dates. This just doesn't work for most boys. Boys want to look at the big picture, understand the wider context with individual details being less important. Many girls, on the other hand, are happy to fill their colour coded notebooks with facts that they conscientiously commit to memory.

Finally, a benefit that's often overlooked is that teachers could talk to us about 'man' things without worrying about girls. This can be hugely valuable, especially for guys who don't have male role models around.

"A flower can not remain in bloom for years, but a garden can be cultivated to bloom throughout seasons and years." - xsplat
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#4

Debate on Single-Sex Education

Quote: (09-23-2011 01:47 PM)Baldwin81 Wrote:  

I went to an all boys private school for high school. For an average kid, going to one of these schools sans any concept of game creates an interesting (read: fucked up) trade-off.

Assume that kid wants to learn and enjoys classes that interest him. There is no better place to learn (aged 14-18) than at a single sex high school. I was always interested in literature, language and history. I had some great teachers, a sturdy workload and - as a result of my secondary education - a good base in each of these subjects. Books-wise, the education one receives at a single sex high school is top-notch.

Unfortunately (thanks in part to the "education professionals" quoted in the article) single sex education is outdated. I won't bore you with too many details but I went to a small K-8 school (35 people in my graduating class), there weren't many girls schools near my high school, I couldn't drive....

FUCK! Being fourteen or 15 with no women nearby is not cool. Education is partially about books but, at that age, a lack of daily exposure to the opposite sex can really set an otherwise well-adjusted kid back.

Granted, there are some "naturals" that did well with the girls based on status (lacrosse was a big deal, for instance), but the vast majority of men developed that pedestalized conservative ideal about women. They wound up dating and marrying their first or second serious girlfriend. I went to a lot of classmate weddings before age 25.

I think there was a time when single sex education was the ideal. Before women were a staple on college campuses, in the workplace, and before they made false rape allegations. Unless your kid is one of these naturals, or is exposed to girls on a daily basis outside of school, single sex education in our decaying culture is not a good idea.

Last thing, I took what those Jesuits said to heart and have always tried to think for myself. Without that intellectual curiousity that they helped foster I'd have never found out about game. Needless to say, as my married school friends now turn into my overweight divorced school friends, I am very thankful for game.


Exactly, single sex education would be a nightmare for any teenage guy and would leave him with undeveloped social skills. Only the few alpha males who mack on girls from other schools would do well while other guys would become hardcore betas who would pedastalize a fat girl who talks to him.
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#5

Debate on Single-Sex Education

Quote: (09-23-2011 02:47 PM)torontokid Wrote:  

Quote: (09-23-2011 01:47 PM)Baldwin81 Wrote:  

I went to an all boys private school for high school. For an average kid, going to one of these schools sans any concept of game creates an interesting (read: fucked up) trade-off.

Assume that kid wants to learn and enjoys classes that interest him. There is no better place to learn (aged 14-18) than at a single sex high school. I was always interested in literature, language and history. I had some great teachers, a sturdy workload and - as a result of my secondary education - a good base in each of these subjects. Books-wise, the education one receives at a single sex high school is top-notch.

Unfortunately (thanks in part to the "education professionals" quoted in the article) single sex education is outdated. I won't bore you with too many details but I went to a small K-8 school (35 people in my graduating class), there weren't many girls schools near my high school, I couldn't drive....

FUCK! Being fourteen or 15 with no women nearby is not cool. Education is partially about books but, at that age, a lack of daily exposure to the opposite sex can really set an otherwise well-adjusted kid back.

Granted, there are some "naturals" that did well with the girls based on status (lacrosse was a big deal, for instance), but the vast majority of men developed that pedestalized conservative ideal about women. They wound up dating and marrying their first or second serious girlfriend. I went to a lot of classmate weddings before age 25.

I think there was a time when single sex education was the ideal. Before women were a staple on college campuses, in the workplace, and before they made false rape allegations. Unless your kid is one of these naturals, or is exposed to girls on a daily basis outside of school, single sex education in our decaying culture is not a good idea.

Last thing, I took what those Jesuits said to heart and have always tried to think for myself. Without that intellectual curiousity that they helped foster I'd have never found out about game. Needless to say, as my married school friends now turn into my overweight divorced school friends, I am very thankful for game.


Exactly, single sex education would be a nightmare for any teenage guy and would leave him with undeveloped social skills. Only the few alpha males who mack on girls from other schools would do well while other guys would become hardcore betas who would pedastalize a fat girl who talks to him.

This is the biggest drawback. Guys who could have had passable social skills if they'd talked to girls regularly are held back. Sometimes they never really catch up.

"A flower can not remain in bloom for years, but a garden can be cultivated to bloom throughout seasons and years." - xsplat
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