[Delta]

One of the most under-discussed topics in game, I think, is what makes an engaging conversationalist. Traditional game stuff like push-pull, teasing, negging, etc. are good to sprinkle in, but they're never going to be the bulk of a conversation. Whether doing an approach or on a first date, over 90% of your time is spent just plain having a conversation with another human being. And if you suck at that, the smoothest escalation techniques in the world are still going to flop, and your baller pad 2 blocks away from the bar is worth shit because she isn't coming back to it. Not to mention that being a good conversationalist has many other applications besides trying to get laid.

My problem, which I'm sure many can relate to, is that my conversations with girls usually feel like a chore. They're not fun for me which probably means they're not fun for her either. Hell, even my conversations with a lot of men I meet feel like a chore. But I'm not some kind of anti-social recluse; I know this because there are family and friends in my life whom I legitimately enjoy talking with. The mystery that needs to be solved is: what's the difference? What makes some conversations an exhausting exercise in thinking of something to say, while others flow organically?

I've dug into some of the advice out there on this topic, and two interesting themes kept surfacing over and over (other than the insultingly obvious stuff):

1. Listen intently.
Many people are brainstorming their next brilliant remark while the other person is speaking, which naturally hinders their ability to concentrate on what that person is saying. It's counterproductive. A response that demonstrates that you fully understand, and better yet, are interested in what person just said is worth much more than a witty remark that shows the person you were tuning them out. People want to be heard.

2. Focus on emotions, values, and beliefs rather than facts.
When listening to the other person, there's something called the FEW technique- Fact, Emotion, Why. Once they give you a fact, dig a bit deeper and ask a question that pertains to the emotions it makes them feel. For example:
GIRL: "I went shopping earlier today."
YOU: "Oh? Do you go shopping for fun, or just when you need stuff?"
-Here you're inviting her to tell you how shopping makes her feel; whether it's an enjoyable activity or a necessary evil.
GIRL: "Oh no I lovvve shopping, I go like every weekend."
-The next step is to find out why it makes her feel that way.
YOU: "Interesting. What is it you love so much about shopping?"
GIRL: "I don't know, I guess I just like looking at all different types of clothes and trying them on."
YOU: "Ah so you like to see what type of stuff makes you look good."
GIRL: "Yep pretty much!"
YOU: "Yeah me too actually. I've been wondering whether I look better in a button down or a polo... *ramble* "
-By digging deeper into her love for shopping, you've allowed her to reveal something about herself, given yourself the opportunity to do the same, and possibly created a point of connection. Now imagine if your response to her having gone shopping was something shallow and fact-based:
YOU: "Cool, what stores?"
HER: "Just JC Penney."
YOU: *have no opinion on JC Penney, stuck just nodding your head and thinking of something new*
The point is that the deeper you dig into one statement, the more core personality traits you'll reveal, and the more you'll connect. Depth > breadth.

When the shoe is on the other foot and she's the one asking you questions, a good technique I found is oversharing. It's simple; instead of just answering the question, throw in a bunch of related nuggets also to give her fodder to ask more questions. For example:
HER: "So where are you from originally?"
YOU: "I've lived here all my life actually. A couple years ago I considered moving down south for the better weather, but decided against it. All my family and friends are around here, and as weird as it sounds I might actually miss winter if I didn't have it anymore."
-Clearly unless the girl is a complete dud, she'll find something in that response to keep the conversation flowing. Now imagine your just answered the question and left it at that:
YOU: "I was born and raised here."
HER: "Oh cool."
YOU: *nods awkwardly*
-Like with the FEW technique, the point here is to allow her to dig deeper. Maybe she asks why you'd miss winter, and you answer you wouldn't be able to appreciate summer unless you had winter. Now instead of shallow facts, you're delving deeper into your personal beliefs. Far more engaging.

And finally, here's an original observation of mine:

3. Say what you actually think, not what you're supposed to say.
Most people aren't nearly as uptight as you think. They'd much rather hang out with someone who crosses the line every now and then as opposed to someone who's always positive and polite but boring. For example:
HER: "Did you like the party?"
YOU: "I mean the alcohol was good but most of those people were complete degenerates. I'd never hang with them during the day."
HER: "Oh my god I know right?! Did you see that one guy puking on the bathroom floor? I'm so glad you're not like that, blah blah blah"
-People have this idea that you're always supposed to be positive about everything no matter what, but god is that boring. Who's going to connect to the girl more, the guy above who gave his honest assessment, or the guy who reflexively answers "yea it was a lot of fun" because parties are supposed to be fun?

Note that "say what you think" doesn't just apply to things that are actually true; it can also be whatever stupid joke pops into your head too. For example:
HER: "Oh my god, a couple days ago I went out and forgot to leave water for my dog. He was like jumping up and down when I got back and filled his bowl!"
YOU: "Wow you'll make a terrible mother some day."
Most guys would think that joke is too personal/offensive and crossing a line. But offensive > boring. That guy will get the girl laughing much more than the supplicating beta who says what he's supposed to- "Oh poor dog! Oh well, they can survive a day without water."

That's all I got...turned out to be longer than I expected. Any other advice/insight is welcome.

[Black Caesar]

Is this stuff you've actually field tested (i.e. are these real convos)?

I'm guessing not.

Listening is just basic effort.

The emotions thing is kind of decent advice. Sort of. But it's more than just listening and reacting to emotions, it's about how to use specific emotions to drive conversation towards your goal.

Listening for emotions is also good to elicit values that you can then play back to her or to run some emotional stimulation where you specifically spike her emotions with key words and phrases.

Probably the best thing to do if you think you're bad at conversations is to go pick up some info on the Juggler Method then go and work on implementing that stuff.

It's a bit better framework than the one you put here, because it talks about how to use some of these tactics to actually push towards smashing instead of just having some conversation that doesn't lead anywhere.

Basic Juggler method is a Relate and Reward loop that lets you pull parts of her conversation and use it to move things where you want.

Check that out, I think it's a lot better tech than what you had posted generally.

[Montrose]

I find it useful to have a few stories to share when the conversation slows down. The story should follow basic story telling rules: a hero is confronted to a problem and solves it (or not). The hero should ideally be a girl with female problem, like boyfriends, children, jobs. The story should be interesting by itself but also allow you to display your understanding of other people’s problems. For example I like to talk about my sister because she has an interesting job/family situation.

[Steelex]

OP is spot on.

The conversation is a tango. Part of it is listening, and part of it is just giving the girl enough material to work with so she can ask you a question or two. Never give short answers, give her a paragraph.

A girl might tell me some long story about her mom and then when she gets done I'm going to say "so it sounds like you and your mom are pretty close" and then she's probably going to tell me another 5 minute story about how her mom was an alcoholic for a few years and how it was so traumatic blablabla and then I'll pick another tidbit from that conversation and let her run with it.

All I've done is ask questions and by the time an hour has passed she thinks I'm the greatest conversationalist ever and has built a lot of comfort. All the while I'm gathering information about her, and sort of building a psychological profile of her to use for later. Daddy issues? Past drug use? Thrill seeker? Sounds like a slam dunk to me.

Is she aware that I'm baiting her???

Probably so. Women are fairly socially smart.

But it doesn't matter. All she wants to do is talk about herself anyway, and it builds comfort.

Comfort + attraction = I'm beatin cheeks later.

[Donfitz007]

I'm new to game but the new IG generation tends to hate the FEW methods.....People want to skip the small talk and go immediately into the deep stuff...

A simple "hey do you like shopping" is dwarfed by the complexed "did you know the store ___ is racist" or "____ doesn't buy from _____ because they treat the poor bad"

this generation loves conspiracies it seems like


Again I'm definitely no pro but this is what I observed to get results.


But an even better technique I see works alot is the "fun" approach. where you NEVER actually talk about deep stuff or even things that interest her. But instead be the fun guys she loves to be around to take her mind off those deep subjects


so its either be the "woke" or counter "woke" genius, or the fun guy


From the one book I did read about charisma, your technique sounds like the one in the Charisma Myth. where listening and making the person seem like the most intelligent person ever is powerful.

[Trent W.]

There's lots to be said about that and so many variables. I for one hadn't heard of the FEW so thanks for that. It does resemble some other advice on the topic.

There is something you touched upon which has to do with listening intently or as some people call it active listening. That is not only hearing what people say but paying attention to what it means, how it affects them, what is behind it etc.

By the way, it goes without saying that paying attention to the non verbal stuff is very important. Everyone knows that a ton of information is conveyed through how we physically act when we say things.

Tom Torero released a product called Conversational King a while back. I'm going to name-drop a few buzz words here that people can look up:

• Colorful, emotive language: talk in a way that paints a picture instead of giving dry facts
• Parroting/mirroring: repeat the last few words your partner has said it will lead them to elaborate/talk more,
• Stealth questions: make statements like "I don't know about you but I...", instead of asking questions
• Preparation: prepare answering the basic interview questions in an interesting, fun way
• Vacuum: leaving space, pausing to create some tension
• Break rapport: show your teeth, don't agree to get along, create conflict
  

Speaking with conviction and providing reasoning with "because..." also proves to be powerful. Maybe you've seen this study with the queue for the copying machine and how the researcher skipped the line just by asking to do it simply with saying "because I want to make copies".

[CynicalContrarian]

A small note.
While it is much easier to talk about something popular & mainstream as opposed to something indepth & engaging for initial conversation.
It can also help to talk about a popular subject in a slightly different context.

For example. When Game Of Thrones was last on air. It would have been easy to simply talk about the TV show, but such basic conversation may have been too dull on a date.
Instead I asked this one girl which character she most identified with.
Which seemed to get a much more engaging response from said girl.

Although the chick in question answered - Arya.
The 'lone wolf', assassin girl character. Which could be taken as a small red-flag in that instance, but I digress...

[RatInTheWoods]

Get people to talk about themselves, they love it and could do it all day.

Ask a few questions that give them the impression you are listening to them, hold enough eye contact and nods etc.

They will love you and think you a fantastic conversationalist.

[pitt]

95% of the girls I meet always tell me I am the most interesting guy they have ever met. I believe travelling and reading a lot shaped the person I am today but my real skills is being a great listener and making them laugh all the time. Read how to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie.

[Ice Man]

I see a lot of talk about questions, which I think is not an ideal way to create a comfort and interest building conversation.

In my experience, a good natural conversation involves very few questions, and only in a peripheral way. Think about how you talk with someone you are comfortable with, an old friend. You are making statements, observations etc, and then the other person volleys back with a related thought. There are very few "What do you think about...?" "Do you like..." type back and forth. The stuff you want to know and share is fleshed out by both of you just talking, not asking questions.

I find girls, everybody really, becomes much more comfortable when you skip all the "where are you from", "you got any siblings", "oh what is your favorite store here" type filler questions. I just start talking, making an observation that I know will likely elicit them to talk more about whatever it is, then I return a thought, back and forth etc. That is how two people who are comfortable talk. If you can "fake it till you make" for a couple minutes you will get this natural back and forth going. Not only is that just good conversation and good for comfort's sake, but it also subconsciously builds intrigue in her, as well as not coming off too interested and needy. It's win-win-win. I have got many girls extremely interested in a short amount of time by doing this, to the point that they have come after me after I walk away to give me their number, because we just had a real familiar and comfortable back and forth and I didn't ask her anything.

Often times I don't even ever ask their name. You ever watch how some dudes approach girls? Yo whats yo name? Just tell me your NAME girl!?, like her name holds the key to her vagina and if you just get her to SAY HER NAME then you are home free.

Forget about her name, forget about where she's going, does she live around here/shop here often/like this store.. these are filler questions and instant tells of your interest anyway.

Try an experiment of just dropping questions altogether. Put yourself in a position (physically and opportunity wise) that you can just start making an observation about something when next to a girl. If you do this correctly without being a weirdo it is a very powerful way to build interest and comfort quickly.

[Delta]

Appreciate all the thoughtful responses!

Here's another weird observation I've made: I become a much better conversationalist after a good night's sleep. Like if I'm well-rested, I just feel so damn energetic and naturally charismatic with my coworkers or whomever I'm talking to that day. Whereas if I didn't sleep enough the previous night, I don't give a shit what anyone has to say and every conversation is like "ugh can this please end already."

Not that I should need any more reason to do better sleep-wise, obviously it's crucial to good health. But I'll be honest, this has given me a little extra motivation to get my sleep routine in order.

[Kieran]

(04-16-2018 08:11 AM)Black Caesar Wrote:  

Is this stuff you've actually field tested (i.e. are these real convos)?

I'm guessing not.

Listening is just basic effort.

The emotions thing is kind of decent advice. Sort of. But it's more than just listening and reacting to emotions, it's about how to use specific emotions to drive conversation towards your goal.

Listening for emotions is also good to elicit values that you can then play back to her or to run some emotional stimulation where you specifically spike her emotions with key words and phrases.

Probably the best thing to do if you think you're bad at conversations is to go pick up some info on the Juggler Method then go and work on implementing that stuff.

It's a bit better framework than the one you put here, because it talks about how to use some of these tactics to actually push towards smashing instead of just having some conversation that doesn't lead anywhere.

Basic Juggler method is a Relate and Reward loop that lets you pull parts of her conversation and use it to move things where you want.

Check that out, I think it's a lot better tech than what you had posted generally.

I agree. Juggler's method to me is still the best models for game out there.

[Delta]

(04-17-2018 04:45 AM)Ice Man Wrote:  

I see a lot of talk about questions, which I think is not an ideal way to create a comfort and interest building conversation.

In my experience, a good natural conversation involves very few questions, and only in a peripheral way. Think about how you talk with someone you are comfortable with, an old friend. You are making statements, observations etc, and then the other person volleys back with a related thought. There are very few "What do you think about...?" "Do you like..." type back and forth. The stuff you want to know and share is fleshed out by both of you just talking, not asking questions.

I find girls, everybody really, becomes much more comfortable when you skip all the "where are you from", "you got any siblings", "oh what is your favorite store here" type filler questions. I just start talking, making an observation that I know will likely elicit them to talk more about whatever it is, then I return a thought, back and forth etc. That is how two people who are comfortable talk. If you can "fake it till you make" for a couple minutes you will get this natural back and forth going. Not only is that just good conversation and good for comfort's sake, but it also subconsciously builds intrigue in her, as well as not coming off too interested and needy. It's win-win-win. I have got many girls extremely interested in a short amount of time by doing this, to the point that they have come after me after I walk away to give me their number, because we just had a real familiar and comfortable back and forth and I didn't ask her anything.

Often times I don't even ever ask their name. You ever watch how some dudes approach girls? Yo whats yo name? Just tell me your NAME girl!?, like her name holds the key to her vagina and if you just get her to SAY HER NAME then you are home free.

Forget about her name, forget about where she's going, does she live around here/shop here often/like this store.. these are filler questions and instant tells of your interest anyway.

Try an experiment of just dropping questions altogether. Put yourself in a position (physically and opportunity wise) that you can just start making an observation about something when next to a girl. If you do this correctly without being a weirdo it is a very powerful way to build interest and comfort quickly.

I've meditated some on how this can reconcile with what I posted originally. What I've realized is that you don't really need to ask questions to elicit emotions, values, beliefs, etc. Just give your rambling thoughts on whatever topic comes up. We're all on a forum geared toward independent thinkers, so we should be naturals at this. It just boils down to the fact that you have thoughts, so just say them. Don't hold back. If you yourself just dive deeper into the topic at hand, then you implicitly invite her to do the same. If she can't then she's dumb and boring and not worth your time.

So what a conversation SHOULDN'T look like is:
-Question
-Shallow, factual answer
-Question that shifts the topic
-Shallow, factual answer
Etc.

What it SHOULD look like is:
-Topic comes up
-Rambling thoughts and opinions on topic
-Related thoughts and opinions
-Related thoughts and opinions
Etc.

What you'll notice if you go back and read my OP is that this just derives the purpose of the oversharing technique. Oversharing and FEW are essentially the same; just different methods to achieve the same goal of going deeper into people's psyche, eliciting nuanced exchanges they've never had before rather than having them recite the same dry as shit factual information about themselves they've already recited a thousand other times.

I've started using this and noticed immediate success. Here's an example from the field: Girl asks me if I'm more of a dog or cat person. I'm neither. The old me would've just said "I'm not really either, I don't have any pets." BORING. Usually is followed by awkward silence that lasts until someone figures out a new contrived question to ask the other.

But the new me just rambled on about the pros and cons of each. And the conversation continued on, flowing naturally and pleasantly. Much better.

Bottom line, ramble whatever thoughts, opinions, beliefs, etc. come to mind regarding the topic at hand, always try to dig deeper into everything, avoid abruptly switching topics, let the topic of conversation flow naturally via the thoughts you two are sharing.

[Capitan Pescanova]

(04-15-2018 11:15 PM)Delta Wrote:  

One of the most under-discussed topics in game, I think, is what makes an engaging conversationalist. Traditional game stuff like push-pull, teasing, negging, etc. are good to sprinkle in, but they're never going to be the bulk of a conversation. Whether doing an approach or on a first date, over 90% of your time is spent just plain having a conversation with another human being. And if you suck at that, the smoothest escalation techniques in the world are still going to flop, and your baller pad 2 blocks away from the bar is worth shit because she isn't coming back to it. Not to mention that being a good conversationalist has many other applications besides trying to get laid.

My problem, which I'm sure many can relate to, is that my conversations with girls usually feel like a chore. They're not fun for me which probably means they're not fun for her either. Hell, even my conversations with a lot of men I meet feel like a chore. But I'm not some kind of anti-social recluse; I know this because there are family and friends in my life whom I legitimately enjoy talking with. The mystery that needs to be solved is: what's the difference? What makes some conversations an exhausting exercise in thinking of something to say, while others flow organically?

I've dug into some of the advice out there on this topic, and two interesting themes kept surfacing over and over (other than the insultingly obvious stuff):

1. Listen intently.
Many people are brainstorming their next brilliant remark while the other person is speaking, which naturally hinders their ability to concentrate on what that person is saying. It's counterproductive. A response that demonstrates that you fully understand, and better yet, are interested in what person just said is worth much more than a witty remark that shows the person you were tuning them out. People want to be heard.

2. Focus on emotions, values, and beliefs rather than facts.
When listening to the other person, there's something called the FEW technique- Fact, Emotion, Why. Once they give you a fact, dig a bit deeper and ask a question that pertains to the emotions it makes them feel. For example:
GIRL: "I went shopping earlier today."
YOU: "Oh? Do you go shopping for fun, or just when you need stuff?"
-Here you're inviting her to tell you how shopping makes her feel; whether it's an enjoyable activity or a necessary evil.
GIRL: "Oh no I lovvve shopping, I go like every weekend."
-The next step is to find out why it makes her feel that way.
YOU: "Interesting. What is it you love so much about shopping?"
GIRL: "I don't know, I guess I just like looking at all different types of clothes and trying them on."
YOU: "Ah so you like to see what type of stuff makes you look good."
GIRL: "Yep pretty much!"
YOU: "Yeah me too actually. I've been wondering whether I look better in a button down or a polo... *ramble* "
-By digging deeper into her love for shopping, you've allowed her to reveal something about herself, given yourself the opportunity to do the same, and possibly created a point of connection. Now imagine if your response to her having gone shopping was something shallow and fact-based:
YOU: "Cool, what stores?"
HER: "Just JC Penney."
YOU: *have no opinion on JC Penney, stuck just nodding your head and thinking of something new*
The point is that the deeper you dig into one statement, the more core personality traits you'll reveal, and the more you'll connect. Depth > breadth.

When the shoe is on the other foot and she's the one asking you questions, a good technique I found is oversharing. It's simple; instead of just answering the question, throw in a bunch of related nuggets also to give her fodder to ask more questions. For example:
HER: "So where are you from originally?"
YOU: "I've lived here all my life actually. A couple years ago I considered moving down south for the better weather, but decided against it. All my family and friends are around here, and as weird as it sounds I might actually miss winter if I didn't have it anymore."
-Clearly unless the girl is a complete dud, she'll find something in that response to keep the conversation flowing. Now imagine your just answered the question and left it at that:
YOU: "I was born and raised here."
HER: "Oh cool."
YOU: *nods awkwardly*
-Like with the FEW technique, the point here is to allow her to dig deeper. Maybe she asks why you'd miss winter, and you answer you wouldn't be able to appreciate summer unless you had winter. Now instead of shallow facts, you're delving deeper into your personal beliefs. Far more engaging.

And finally, here's an original observation of mine:

3. Say what you actually think, not what you're supposed to say.
Most people aren't nearly as uptight as you think. They'd much rather hang out with someone who crosses the line every now and then as opposed to someone who's always positive and polite but boring. For example:
HER: "Did you like the party?"
YOU: "I mean the alcohol was good but most of those people were complete degenerates. I'd never hang with them during the day."
HER: "Oh my god I know right?! Did you see that one guy puking on the bathroom floor? I'm so glad you're not like that, blah blah blah"
-People have this idea that you're always supposed to be positive about everything no matter what, but god is that boring. Who's going to connect to the girl more, the guy above who gave his honest assessment, or the guy who reflexively answers "yea it was a lot of fun" because parties are supposed to be fun?

Note that "say what you think" doesn't just apply to things that are actually true; it can also be whatever stupid joke pops into your head too. For example:
HER: "Oh my god, a couple days ago I went out and forgot to leave water for my dog. He was like jumping up and down when I got back and filled his bowl!"
YOU: "Wow you'll make a terrible mother some day."
Most guys would think that joke is too personal/offensive and crossing a line. But offensive > boring. That guy will get the girl laughing much more than the supplicating beta who says what he's supposed to- "Oh poor dog! Oh well, they can survive a day without water."

That's all I got...turned out to be longer than I expected. Any other advice/insight is welcome.

Is there any kind of book which develops what you have explained in this post? When I used to be a kid I would spend hours and hours in front of my computer screen playing video games. As a result, I did not construct my "chatty face". Although I have been catching up on social skills, I still have difficulties to maintain a conversation from time to time. Above all with women since I do not have anything in common with them and I also do not give a crap about 90%of their hobbies

[RedPillUK]

Ice Man completely nailed it, he seems to get it more than anyone else here.

Statements over questions, you don't even need to ask her name or any of that boring get to know you stuff.

That first example in the OP was horrible. A girl says "I went shopping earlier" and you ask her about that? You don't have to try and make a conversation about everything. I would probably just give an uninterested response, or wait to see if that boring story has a point or gets more interesting. Even making fun of her is more entertaining than going on and on about shopping for fucks sake. Just because she finds it interesting doesn't mean you should talk about it.

The advice 'get them to talk about themselves and they will love you' from Dale Carnegie is leading a lot of people astray, it's only partly true. It leads people to asking lots of questions about someone like an interview, rather than making statements and having a conversation.

Even worse it can lead people to this fake persona, where they're sooo interested in everything she does. "Wow, you went shopping earlier?" "Wow, that place has great clothes, where else do you like to shop?" "wow you're really fashionable, so you're into fashion? That's so cool!"

I see men do this all the time, and I feel disgusted from halfway across the room so I imagine she would feel even worse, wondering how she can get out of the awkward conversation.