[The Catalyst]

I've been on more Idates than I can count(well, 7-8 I'm guessing) and the pattern is I've really only had dumpster-fire level failures with girls on drinks dates. I can't believe it took me this long to notice. On some other occasion I would do coffeeshop dates for some reason(the girl is goody-good and doesn't drink, or bars are closed or there's a cafe nearby) and it's never crashed and burned in the same way.

The reason I did drinks dates as a default was, I just thought hey, guys better than me all do them, and it's pretty good to get us both in the mood. Also getting her tipsy gives her some plausible deniability so she doesn't think she's a slut. But I think despite those advantages it has to be wrong.

The big problem with drinks dates:

1) I'm a lightweight and can't think clearly on 1 wine

I get drunk relatively quickly, and I perform considerably worse when I'm tipsy. I'm not good enough at game that I can truly autopilot it and hope for the best, I have to have conscious control over myself to truly follow the daygame model and get her hooked. Also even on 1 drink I have more of a hazy memory than I'd like so I can't truly learn from my mistakes. I can be doing pretty great at the start of the set but the wheels start to come off when I stop thinking clearly. I really do my best when I'm completely sober and am completely in flow that I can function really well without even thinking too much, alcohol is just too much too fast.

There's a consideration for me to get something non-alcoholic but then she likely won't want to get alcohol either and it would defeat the whole purpose. If she does get alcohol I'd probably seem weird to her, which I don't mind, but I already can be "weird" in many other ways that I don't want to make her stop and think if I don't have to.

2) NZ rips people, especially alcoholics off

Here the government literally steals half of your money if you're an alcoholic/drinker(The more realistic way to describe it with less flair, is over half the retail cost of alcohol is taxes). It's really funny if you're not drinking, because it really highlights the complacency of Anglo people allowing the nanny state to do something like this, however it's really cruel if you're drinking and you're the one actually affected. Combined with the fact that businesses tend to charge significantly more than say, the US, is you end up with the cheapest wine they have costing NZ$10. At the time of writing, it's US$7.50.

I don't mind paying that money, especially as a one-off, but repeatedly paying for my own drink for dozens of dates adds up. If I don't get the girl, I feel like a chump. Even if I would get a girl, I feel like a whoremonger because of the ridiculous amounts I had to pay if I get one girl every 5-10 dates.

3) Much harder to develop a connection

My biggest strength with girls is getting to know her and creating a strong bond between us. If we don't get to talk as much and truly get to connect, then I lose one of the main advantages I have. A big part of this besides the alcohol is how loud it is.

4) I can't lean back and play it cool

In a coffeeshop or walking around on the street or chilling out in the park or similar, I can be myself and sit/stand back and lead and she often would lean into me. But in a moderately loud bar it's quite difficult to do the same because she can't hear you. It's really tempting to lean right in. I don't want to lose frame so I do a compromise in leaning a little bit and try to do it less than she does but it does lose the charm that I can play it cool.

Christian McQueen, as much as I dislike the guy, suggested a great method where you drag the girl right into you so you can whisper in her ear. However, this is really difficult for me to execute/pull off.

5) My "low energy" introversion is punished in that setting

Bars seem to demand a higher energy, extroverted vibe to match the surroundings of what's happening. I don't base my self-esteem/ego on what girls think anymore, so I don't feel bad about being low key and chill but it sucks when your natural vibe is suboptimal. Here I really do feel Roosh's complaint about needing to be a "clown". If I were somewhere quieter where instead I was the loudest person around(I'm not actually quiet- in a typical settings I'm above average in how outgoing I am, I just don't do well in loud nightlife settings), that feels much smoother and more natural to me.

6) Higher chances of things going wrong/others fucking with you

This is a minor issue most of the time, but it's still worth mentioning.

Whether she doesn't have her ID, or has quit drinking, or doesn't have money on her(once, a tourist girl had trouble changing money), or the bar doesn't let you in, or messes with your ID, and guys otherwise AMOGging/cockblocking you, it's all part of the territory of going to a drinks date. But it all seems unnecessary.

The other thing is that bars encourage you both to stay up late because of the vibe/culture, but I much prefer to sleep early and be healthy and feel good about myself. I don't mind being up past midnight or so if I at least get a makeout and/or a strong connection/fun with the girl but otherwise it seems like such a waste.


I'll be switching over to asking girls to coffeeshops for dates as a default to see what happens. I'm really sensitive to coffee as well as alcohol, in that I get really wired/anxious after just 1 coffee. However, I can just order something else like a normal person. It's much cheaper than a drinks date as well. I won't be getting her tipsy, which is unfortunate, but what can you do.

[luckyfever]

Just point number 1 is enough reason for you to switch over to coffee dates. If a single drink or two really does have that kind of effect, you're better off avoiding it altogether to maintain game. What's most important is your state of mind after all.

That being said, it sounds like you may be too in your head on these dates. Perhaps once you get more experience a drink or two will no longer throw you off as your game will be more ingrained at that point. I say this because girls a drink or two deep will be much easier to game.

Also, maybe you should look around for a bar more suitable to your character? They're not all high-energy loud and bustling places with people who fuck with you.

[PapayaTapper]

I used to have a bartender that knew that when I said "Can I get a PT special and a (whatever the chick wanted) " it meant soda on the rocks with lime for me.



I was just telling another RVF about the importance of having a local bar (or bars) on lockdown. One of the reasons is if you go to a place regularly a bartender can be your best friend.

Edit: "Clubs" are not my thang but a cool low key lounge is

[Incubus]

One drink and hazy? I have to think back to a recent lab rat test done to people. Some people were given alcohol and some weren't but told they had been given alcohol.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3035442.stm

Look Catalsyt the power of the brain over a persons actions is well documented.

Certainly there are strategies to use as PapayaTappar outlined if you want to avoid drinking period.

I read over some items you wrote and came away from it feeling you may like control (which is normal) a noisy bar is loss of control. Taking the girl for a walk or quiet cafe for one on one's is control.

When you go on dates in the future don't do anything just enjoy everything, don't worry about closing deals later or how you appear or what the chick thinks. Take the pressure of yourself and maybe you can relax.

[The Catalyst]

Thanks for the responses guys, I agree I'm neurotic and tend to overthink/analyse things.

I'll try to relax more in the future- although it's very difficult since the reason I'm doing this is because I care about closing.

[Dino]

I was in your shoes. Here is my experience, hope it helps.
First, keep trying, don't give up. 7 or 8 of these dates is not enough for you to find your groove. After more than a year my number is over 100 and I did not feel like I had my routine down until well after 20. Just keep pushing yourself and your introversion will be lessened as routine takes over. Your mileage will vary.
Until my logistics improved my first date bang/blow recipe either ended in my car or back at her place. At my age kids get in the way of bringing these women home. But looking back who wants to bring a one night stand back to your family home. I have recently made a huge change which affects my first date recipe and logistics. Once I run it through a few more times I will do a write up about it. There was a significant cash investment but it is something I had been wanting to do for myself for years. Having a cool adults only spot for dates was just a bonus. Your alcohol tolerance should increase as well. To avoid problems I detox for 2 or 3 days in between dates. No science behind this that I am aware of but it keeps me feeling good. Keep trying! I wish you the best.

[PondScum]

Alcohol messes me up too, even one beer can make me more interested in a nap than a bang if it's been a long week.
If you don't want to do something, and it's not necessary or beneficial, then don't do it. Pretty sound guideline all round.

[Roardog]

OP, there is nothing wrong with avoiding drinking if it has a negative effect on you or if the cost is too high for your finances. The alcohol isn't the important thing here, its about your game and your logistics. The first one takes practice and the second one takes thought and reconnaissance.

It definitely sounds like you are setting your dates at the wrong venue. A loud venue is no good for dates as you have discovered. You need to find a nice quiet bar where you can talk normally and preferably, is within walking distance or east public transport, of your place.

For example, my first date routine goes like this.
Meet at Bar 1. This is a quiet bar with a relaxed vibe where it is easy to have a regular conversation. It allows me to get to know the girl in a relaxed atmosphere.
Move to Bar 2. This is a higher energy bar but still not so loud you can't talk at a normal volume. The atmosphere is just livelier and more fun, lending itself to escalation. This bar is also closer to my house, about 5 min walk.

Do some scouting of your local area and find a venue or 3 that have the type of atmosphere that you're looking for.

[The Catalyst]

(04-13-2018 02:54 AM)Roardog Wrote:  

It definitely sounds like you are setting your dates at the wrong venue. A loud venue is no good for dates as you have discovered. You need to find a nice quiet bar where you can talk normally and preferably, is within walking distance or east public transport, of your place.

For example, my first date routine goes like this.
Meet at Bar 1. This is a quiet bar with a relaxed vibe where it is easy to have a regular conversation. It allows me to get to know the girl in a relaxed atmosphere.
Move to Bar 2. This is a higher energy bar but still not so loud you can't talk at a normal volume. The atmosphere is just livelier and more fun, lending itself to escalation. This bar is also closer to my house, about 5 min walk.

Do some scouting of your local area and find a venue or 3 that have the type of atmosphere that you're looking for.

Thanks for the response. I think other guys earlier in the thread have said or implied something similar.

The bars I've historically gone to are like Bar 2, at least in the evening or earlier. I haven't actually found a bar like Bar 1, I've looked up quiet bars in Auckland and they all seem ridiculously "classy"(expensive). Maybe I'd have to check it out to know for sure because I really would want to have drinks dates if I can limit all of the downside. There seems to be a limited amount of quiet bars as far as I can tell.

I'm definitely still going to default to coffee dates, at least for now, for the first date/venue. Maybe if it gets to a stage where I have a rock solid connection with a girl I would move on to a bar like Bar 2.

[Roardog]

(04-13-2018 03:06 AM)The Catalyst Wrote:  

(04-13-2018 02:54 AM)Roardog Wrote:  

It definitely sounds like you are setting your dates at the wrong venue. A loud venue is no good for dates as you have discovered. You need to find a nice quiet bar where you can talk normally and preferably, is within walking distance or east public transport, of your place.

For example, my first date routine goes like this.
Meet at Bar 1. This is a quiet bar with a relaxed vibe where it is easy to have a regular conversation. It allows me to get to know the girl in a relaxed atmosphere.
Move to Bar 2. This is a higher energy bar but still not so loud you can't talk at a normal volume. The atmosphere is just livelier and more fun, lending itself to escalation. This bar is also closer to my house, about 5 min walk.

Do some scouting of your local area and find a venue or 3 that have the type of atmosphere that you're looking for.

Thanks for the response. I think other guys earlier in the thread have said or implied something similar.

The bars I've historically gone to are like Bar 2, at least in the evening or earlier. I haven't actually found a bar like Bar 1, I've looked up quiet bars in Auckland and they all seem ridiculously "classy"(expensive). Maybe I'd have to check it out to know for sure because I really would want to have drinks dates if I can limit all of the downside. There seems to be a limited amount of quiet bars as far as I can tell.

I'm definitely still going to default to coffee dates, at least for now, for the first date/venue. Maybe if it gets to a stage where I have a rock solid connection with a girl I would move on to a bar like Bar 2.

Bar 2 is still not so loud that you have to lean into someone and shout. You can have a conversation comfortably, either leaning forward or back.

Don't "look up" bars on the internet, go there in person and check them out. Feel the vibe and the layout. How are the acoustics? Are the logistics of getting there and away good? Can you get a table where you will be sitting close enough that touching her will be easy and not an awkward reach? Is it too busy/crowded?
These are all things you need to visit a place to discover.

I have been to Auckland several times and there are definitely suitable bars around. The only question is whether there is with with good logistics for you.

[Frank Mackey]

OP, this strategy does not need to have the downside of leading her not to drink alcohol. Some suggestions::

1. Ask her what she would like to drink, at the same time adding "so they have cocktails, wine, beer..." in order to suggest you're both going for an alcoolic drink.

2. If she orders a cocktail, just choose a non-alcoolic one from the menu. She will probably ask what cocktail you're choosing; you may answer that you're thinking on a Mojito, but when the waiter asks, u will suddenly change your mind when ordering. Since the menus will be returned to the waiter she will not notice that the cocktail is non-alcoholic.

It usually happens that at this stage the waiter says "Please note that this cocktail is non-alcoholic". In order to prevent this, just show him the menu, point specifically to the non-alcoolic section and tell him "from this section, I want this one". Then he will know that you are aware.

It may happen that there are no alcoholic cocktails in the menu. If that is the case, just order something and excuse yourself. In the way to the bathroom, go to the bar and ask the guys to prepare you something specific and non-alcoholic. If necessary a virgin Mojito for example.

3. If she orders wine, you can just answer "perfect idea". When the waiter comes, order a glass of wine for her and the non-alcoolic cocktail for you.

To sum it up, it's important to put her in the mood to order alcohol. As soon as the waiter comes, you can do whatever, she will not step back, even if you fuck up and she realises that you're not drinking alcohol.

Just don't talk much about what you're drinking, or thinking to drink. If she asks you "what is that drink about?" Just tell her something in the lines of "well good qusetion, I don't remember exactly. I think vodka, and ... and ...". If she wants to try and says it seems not to have alcohol, you may answer "yes this one seems quite light" or something in those lines.

Have fun!

[Jagnum]

If you order something non-alcoholic, and the girl asks you, "Why aren't you drinking?" you can just respond,

"Taking a little break." Then, change the subject.

The best player I know on this forum doesn't drink alcohol at all. His dates are usually at bars too.