[puckerman]

I was at a conference recently where there were a lot of international people. Some of the people were discussing a project in which they were investing in teak wood in the forests of Panama. It almost sounded to good to be true.

Basically, they said we could make an investment and buy some land. With that, we could quickly apply for residency. However, we would only have to visit Panama once every two years. They also said that after five years of residency, we could apply for full citizenship.

Naturally I wondered if this was a scam. Since it involves going abroad, I doubt I would have much recourse if something bad happened.

Is it this easy to acquire residency and citizenship in Panama?

And what is it like for those of you who live there?

These people didn't seem to have many answers to what life in Panama is like. That bothered me.

I have not invested with these people. I do not know anyone who has.

[Cipher]

Based on a quick Google search it looks like residency in Panama isn't too hard to acquire if you're already a citizen of a developed country.

However this specific opportunity may not be legit and I'd be very careful about investing in a project and market that you don't really understand. What kind of conference was this? Did you get the name of the group pitching this idea? How much money were they looking for?

Be careful and do your research. If you want to become a Panamanian resident/citizen there are probably better (and potentially cheaper) ways to do it.

[Laner]

You need a lot of land for a woodlot. Also, I would imaging illegal logging to be a massive problem.

Another thing is the teak itself. If it was prime age for harvest, some guy would have snatched it up already. It might sound cool adding the numbers from a fresh haul, coupled with the acreage they are selling you. But add in the 25 years to maturity and you will be looking at a long time to recoup your investment.

[renotime]

If you are specifically looking to acquire Panamanian citizenship you need to deposit 5k and open a business. You will also have to renounce any other citizenship you have.

http://nomadcapitalist.com/second-passport/panama/

[puckerman]

Thanks. I am looking for a second citizenship. I'm definitely looking to renounce one in favor of another.

That means Panama is out.

[scotian]

I was contacted by PM on here a couple of years ago by a random dude offering the same deal so I then contacted a repped poster who knows his shit on the topic. Although we spoke about teak in Colombia not Panama (which used to be part of Colombia), I feel that the advice is very relevant, here’s what he told me

TLDR: don’t do it

Quote:

Don't do it unless you know the actual person doing the operations, it is really sketchy.

There are just too many layers of possible fuck ups
1. Land control/tenure: 20 years is a long time in south america and you have no guarantees that some crazy government regime isn't just going to take the land with the teak on it, or circa cocaine columbia that some gang isn't just going to burn it and plant drugs on it.
2. Quality control: The quality of the seedlings being used for the teak is also often sketchy and is grown in poorly controlled conditions outside. Unless there is someone that knows their shit handling the growing of it, it can go to to crap. Also, unless someone...ie an actual forester, is planning the sites to be planted on you end up with brutal survival rates. The project manager will say "Oh we planted 2500 hectares." but because they put it on bad sites with no vegetation management you have 10 hectares in 3 years left alive.
3. Assurance that the job is completed: This is what I dealt with. We'd get reports that would say "we planted 3 million trees in this place" and I would go to somewhere like the Philippines, get these guys to take me out to the jungle and say "Ok, show me where, show me maps" and there is some sampling math you can do to say "ok, if there are this many trees, at this spacing, it should take up this land area" OR "if someone has been planting trees for 2 years, all of the ones I see shouldnt' look like they were planted in the past week". Its not like Canada, or the US or Finland where someone is on these guys asses all the time making sure the work is done. Lots of people just take the money, fake the work and then disappear and its hard to prove they actually did or didn't do the work.
4. Timber Theft: You wait all 20 years for the teak to mature, and then lo and behold, some asshole went and cut it all down in the middle of the night, stole it and sold it. Timber theft is huge in SE Asia, Russia, South America and Africa. Forestry companies and Governments employ people to guard forest lands to try and combat it. This risk will be especially high if the locals know some gringos are growing teak and will not notice its gone until its too late.

Thats why I am against foreign timber investment. Even if you can go to Columbia and touch the teak trees they are growing for you, there is no guarantee that they aren't just shitting you and showing you some trees that are planted in a national park, that they don't even own, that might not even be teak.

[Road_Less_Taken]

These type of threads are probably the most useful. I am with everyone else. If you are 100% set on investing in something start with baby steps..especially in any 3rd world country. Spend years there first. If not just park your money somewhere safe where you can sleep every night.

[puckerman]

Thanks for all the excellent suggestions. I doubt I will pursue this opportunity. It does look like this could be easy to set up though.

[KYT88]

A lot of developing countries seem to be abounding with lucrative opportunities, however more often than not these opportunities fail to measure up when put under any form of scrutiny.

Here in Indonesia there are swathes of people with 'fantastic' opportunities promising 100's of percent returns. However as mentioned above you are very frequently at the whim of local authorities and facing a constant barrage of moving goalposts of requirements.

Whilst there are certainly opportunities available in developing countries having boots on the ground experience along with an understanding of the local customs and requirements to do business can still not give you significant protection against a swift change in circumstance.

In the case of persevering with opportunities here choosing an amount you could afford to lose along with expecting almost immediate cash flow returns that can generate a significant proportion of your initial investment can safeguard you to a degree.

I didn't heed this advice on my first investment here and now have a 35 year lease on a piece of land in someone else's name along with a farming project that won't produce yields for over 18 months. Already additional build costs and other 'issues have cropped up which have been a valuable lesson but a clear exposure of my naivety to not set more thorough terms in the agreement. There is still a possibility it it will proof fruitful however the due diligence and planning in retrospect was far to lacking for such an agreement in a developing country.

[Brother Abdul Majeed]

(03-05-2018 01:29 AM)renotime Wrote:  

If you are specifically looking to acquire Panamanian citizenship you need to deposit 5k and open a business. You will also have to renounce any other citizenship you have.

http://nomadcapitalist.com/second-passport/panama/

Nonsense.

I currently reside in Panama and am in the process of acquiring residency. I've lived here for about 2 years on a tourist visa.

For the first year and a half I had to renew my toursit visa (which lasts 6 months) by popping across the border into Costa Rica (which is half an hour from where I live), staying for 3 days, and returning to Panama and get a new one.

Now the rules have tightened, mainly due to Venezuelans who are here illegally, and I'm compelled to return to my country of origin for a month before returning. I have a way to get around this, but I'm not going to divulge how I do this on an open forum.

There are a number of ways to obtain Panamanian residency and then go on to obtain citizenship from there. A panamanian residency status card only requires you to be in the country one day out of every two years to keep in good standing.
You are absolutely allowed to be a dual citizen in Panama.

Investing in forestry is a little bit of a loophole that allows people to obtain their residency and then go on to obtain citizenship. Teak is one such way, it is not a scam at all, there are just certain boxes that have to be ticked off to make sure you are doing it the right way.

[puckerman]

I am definitely going to need to look into this more. I am hearing a lot of conflicting reports.

Residency also requires you to put $5,000 in a bank. That is no problem for me.

[Ice Man]

Any "easy investment opportunity" in Central or South America is usually neither easy nor a genuine lucrative opportunity.

Legitimate opportunities are not sold at conferences.

If you simply want Residence in Panama its not that difficult. I could go into a long explanation but you can find the answers with an easy Google search. Any number of lawyers in Panama City can get this done for you in a short time. If you are serious about this, those are the people who you should be talking to about this.

I find that very few people with these inquiries are actually serious.

[renotime]

(03-08-2018 07:41 PM)Brother Abdul Majeed Wrote:  

(03-05-2018 01:29 AM)renotime Wrote:  

If you are specifically looking to acquire Panamanian citizenship you need to deposit 5k and open a business. You will also have to renounce any other citizenship you have.

http://nomadcapitalist.com/second-passport/panama/

Nonsense.

I currently reside in Panama and am in the process of acquiring residency. I've lived here for about 2 years on a tourist visa.

For the first year and a half I had to renew my toursit visa (which lasts 6 months) by popping across the border into Costa Rica (which is half an hour from where I live), staying for 3 days, and returning to Panama and get a new one.

Now the rules have tightened, mainly due to Venezuelans who are here illegally, and I'm compelled to return to my country of origin for a month before returning. I have a way to get around this, but I'm not going to divulge how I do this on an open forum.

There are a number of ways to obtain Panamanian residency and then go on to obtain citizenship from there. A panamanian residency status card only requires you to be in the country one day out of every two years to keep in good standing.
You are absolutely allowed to be a dual citizen in Panama.

Investing in forestry is a little bit of a loophole that allows people to obtain their residency and then go on to obtain citizenship. Teak is one such way, it is not a scam at all, there are just certain boxes that have to be ticked off to make sure you are doing it the right way.

Apparently you are right.

"The Panamanian nationality law requires an oath of renunciation of former citizenship as a condition of naturalization. However, currently the US court system interprets this oath as "non-meaningful" and therefore it will not result in the loss of US citizenship, unless the US citizen renounces their citizenship directly to the US State Department, which will then result in loss of US nationality."

I won't link because the site is trying to sell a lot of stuff. OP, you should obviously consult an attorney, but this sounds like the easiest way to get a second passport if you can't do it through ancestry.

[puckerman]

I have asked several people at various consulates and embassies. I can't seem to get answer on the citizenship question.

[Tail Gunner]

(03-04-2018 10:58 PM)puckerman Wrote:  

Is it this easy to acquire residency and citizenship in Panama?

I have visited Panama and also spoken to immigration lawyers there. Residency is very easy to obtain if your home country is included within the Panama "Friendly Nations" Visa Program.

Forget citizenship unless you plan to live in Panama for a minimum of five years before applying for citizenship. The immigration attorneys in Panama act very coy and will state "do not worry about citizenship until after you obtain your residency visa" because they want to generate legal fees from your residency application. Most will not expressly admit that, unlike residency, you have no hope of obtaining citizenship in Panama unless you actually live in Panama, which is why I abandoned that potential quest. If you research the various Panama expat chat sites, you will see that this is true.

While you should still exercise caution and do boots-on-the-ground due diligence, the timber programs available through Live and Invest Overseas are most likely legitimate because they vet their investment providers and therefore place their reputation on the line. Be very cautious of most other timber investment opportunities. While timber is an exceedingly great long-term investment (if done right), even legitimate companies can fail to meet their obligations and promises -- especially if they do not have an established track record of proven experience.

[Gray Beard]

(03-15-2018 01:07 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

(03-04-2018 10:58 PM)puckerman Wrote:  

Is it this easy to acquire residency and citizenship in Panama?

I have visited Panama and also spoken to immigration lawyers there. Residency is very easy to obtain if your home country is included within the Panama "Friendly Nations" Visa Program.

Forget citizenship unless you plan to live in Panama for a minimum of five years before applying for citizenship. [....]

Except for birthright (including ancestry), can you think of any other way to obtain a citizenship without actually residing in the country for (typically) five years?

[Tail Gunner]

(05-16-2018 11:47 PM)Gray Beard Wrote:  

(03-15-2018 01:07 AM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

(03-04-2018 10:58 PM)puckerman Wrote:  

Is it this easy to acquire residency and citizenship in Panama?

I have visited Panama and also spoken to immigration lawyers there. Residency is very easy to obtain if your home country is included within the Panama "Friendly Nations" Visa Program.

Forget citizenship unless you plan to live in Panama for a minimum of five years before applying for citizenship. [....]

Except for birthright (including ancestry), can you think of any other way to obtain a citizenship without actually residing in the country for (typically) five years?

Marriage is almost always the quickest way to obtain citizenship in any country. Some countries have citizenship by investment programs.

thread-63640...investment

[Gray Beard]

This ^
There is an old German saying, "you get old like a cow and still learn." (Man wird alt wie eine Ku und lernt immer noch zu.) Well, I learned something here and in the referenced thread, thank you. The biggest surprise there was that for a sufficient amount you can even buy your way into the EU, including Austria, which is a Schengen country. It costs millions, but that's beside the point. And there are other EU passports for less, scheduled to become Schengen too one day and good for work anywhere in the EU already.

[nola]

Could be sound investment, my sailboat has teak decks and last time I replaced them I took the boat to Panama, which was the recommendation of my shipwright friends due to the cost of teak and cost of labor.

If I remember correctly the cost of the teak in the US was 80 - 90% higher than in Panama.

[Tail Gunner]

For those members interested in agricultural investments, there are some amazing technological advances in the use of sensors, algorithms, and information systems to minimize water usage, manage plant stress, and maximize crop yield. This new technology is absolutely amazing.