Hey lads
I'm after experienced opinion. I have my own answers already, but I want those challenged. I also think this is a theme that may be useful to other readers.
============Warning: Long Post================
TL;DR
The question is one of having adequately screened a girl vs giving her more time to prove herself. More specifically: Do you believe people (girls) can change if they are gamed reasonably well early in the LTR.
THE BACKGROUND
I'm a mid-thirties Australian and based here. Got into game late (24) but then ratcheted up my notch count to the triple digits. Have done this through a variety of cold-approach SNL, D2s, and day game. Have also smashed tinder. Have run multiple MLTRs, and generally kept a healthy 2-3 girls in rotation at any one time.
The last 9 months or so I have been looking for a girl to settle down with. Speaking to a very experienced playa (also on this forum) I started to shift my perspective on recreational gaming to the screening process. I have my check-list. I have my deal-breakers. I have a strategy. I have a firm life direction and am comfortable leading a relationship as a man. However my experience in committed relationships is not solid, and I am learning that I probably distrust girls and am commitment-phobic more than I had appreciated, although perhaps that is justified… read on.
THE STORY
I same-meet-close a tinder flame in September of last year. HB7.5, super-fun, and we have great positive vibes. She is 4 years my junior, works as professional in Japan, is well-travelled (perhaps too well) and speaks fluent English. She is an atypical Japanese girl: Extroverted, adventurous, and heaps of fun. She stays with me again on her final night in the country. At the time I felt we had a good connection, and… well, we fall for each other hard. She returned to Japan (where she lives) and I thought that was that.
The next day she had messaged me. She wanted to return to Australia to see me. I had flagged her as non-LTR material (and, in a move of exasperated cynicism, went on to delete tinder and reset my sights on day game after she left) but definitely liked her company. I told her I was flattered but was attending a wedding that weekend (didn't invite her), could show her around in my free time. She visited, I did a road trip with her and left her alone for a good 5-6h whilst at my mates' wedding. She flew back to Japan and we stayed in contact – in fact she constantly texted and wanted to talk on the phone.
She visited another x2 weekends. Now, I have converted plenty of girls who were willing to travel for me, but this was an impressive level of investment. Still, I promised her nothing, and she still visited. After this last visit, I decided to call it quits. Wrote to her and spoke on the phone. This was mainly because of needing to put in long hours as part of a career move, but also I was getting the impression that she would keep going and burn herself out on a road to nowhere; I'm not a complete asshole.
She professed her love for me, was willing to keep flying out in the little spare time that she had; repeatedly invited me to visit her in Japan. I perhaps made an error in staking some LTR-frames early - in fact on her first visit (in truth, just being honest about what I was looking for long-term). Anyway. I enjoyed her company so much, I couldn't resist. We spoke more on the phone and she visited again in December.
A few weeks ago I went and stayed with her in Japan. During all her visits I was qualifying her hard - asked many questions about her past. This trip was no different, and she had been investing progressively more deeply since we met. Her past sexual/relationship is not favourable: early (14 years) first-time; "12" partners (ergo, much much more), lived in 2x Western countries before, and low ASD. I could go on. At one point I had described myself as a reformed partier and she loved this idea (of course) as she also had reformed from her partying days. She was/is very serious about an LTR, settling down, and having kids. For a long time, she has wanted to leave Japan to live abroad after obtaining her qualification.
In addition to her history, I had a lot of suspicion that she still had party girl habits. Visiting her in her home city confirmed that. She uses an English keyboard on her smartphone; she had a bee-line path from the local bar to her apartment door; etc. etc. In her favour, she had been in 3x LTRs in the past – the longest of these was 3 years and ended 12 months prior. In our discussions about the long-term future, she planned to finish her training in 14 months then move to be with me in Australia, and was willing to move straight away if I could commit to her straight away.
A further plunge down the deal-breaker list: I found irrefutable evidence that in her last LTR (the three-year one), they (as a couple) ran into difficulty and she cheated on him. Not once, but multiple times. After finding the evidence (old texts) I asked her point blank about having ever cheated. She looked me direct in the eye and said she never had .
That was it for me. After returning to Australia I called her up and broke it off. She was, understandably, at a loss as to my sudden change in demeanour (we had had a very romantic and fun week together in Japan). She was also heartbroken. I gave her the opportunity to go through it all with a fine tooth come with phone calls later that week. I explained I wasn't judging her past so much as her dishonesty with me and her lifestyle being one unsuited to a LTR with a mother raising children. We broke off contact on a stale note, with a suggestion of resuming contact in 6-8 weeks after time to cool down.
Contact resumed after 14 days – I had blocked all social media / email from her but received a direct international call to my phone. This was due to my emotional idiocy in missing her at this point,resulting in 2-3 emails; my bad. It gave us the opportunity to talk more (6+h). I was actually gald to hear from her. She had always insisted on her loyalty to me, and did this again. I insisted on her long-term plan and intentions etc. I asked for her facebook log in and, in a moment of extreme dread, she complied. She had met up with an ex- for a concert in December (she showed me texts to prove that nothing happened; it seems she was trying to rub in his face she had found someone else). She had met a tinder date perhaps two months ago for dinner but had since deleted the app. Fair enough. She had also been speaking to friends about how to get me back – expressing to them she was willing to wait for months whilst receiving the silent treatment from me. Explaining to them her loyalty (it seems she may not have slept with anyone since meeting met… who knows). Interestingly, one of these friends was a Western bloke geographically remote from her – likely an old flame from years back. Ie. She was emotionally outsourcing to this other guy in times of relationship stress it seems. I was not amused.
I explained again what I had during the break-up: That we both fell hard for each other, but perhaps have different values and are not compatible in the long- long- term. I re-iterated my entire philosophy of LTRs: Trust, honesty, respect. Traditionalist nuclear family (and was she compatible with it). What was appropriated in terms of ex- contacts (she deleted her ex's number from her phone then and there, promised to come to me first for LTR troubles) and that if we were to be together she would have to prove herself by living a holistic lifestyle, not contact any other guys, and yes, delete her social media contacts from around the world. She agreed. She wanted to call me every night (always has, in fact). From all that I have seen of her previous LTRs she is a natural follower, and she in fact broke up (and, apparently, cheated on) her 3-year LTR in the last year of that relationship because he didn't want to settle down. I have set strong leadership and prizeability from the get-go, and she has always complied with my frame. She wants to settle down and have kids. She has repeatedly said she doesn't think she'll find anyone better than me. We are both busy with our work and so it will be phone contact plus her visiting from overseas monthly (if I allow it).
There is more detail, but I have droned on enough (feel free to ask).
THE QUESTION
Is this juice worth the squeeze?
If not, why not?
If so, how would you go about it?
THE DISCUSSION
My answer is somewhat grey, I know others will see the situation as black and white.
Three maxims come to mind:
1. "you can't make a ho a housewife"
2. "The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour"
3. "Actions speak louder than words"
But.
I wanted to throw it out to the cast of thousands:
- This is a high level of investment in a girl whose long-term relationship goals align with mine. We otherwise get on well and I'm not afraid to say I have strong feelings for her. She is outgoing yet conforms to the feminine role at the drape of an arm or the pinch of the neck.
- She expressed remorse for her past actions and is afraid to lose my trust. She is willing to change her entire lifestyle and move country to give it a crack. She states she hadn't realise how important honesty is to me and agrees to tell me even if she makes a mistake (the details of that discussion is for another time…).
- I suspect I am naturally a bit distrustful; spinning plates is a nice solution to that, but in the context of a committed LTR, this is new territory. I do believe that she has not closed anyone since we met. Meet-ups with other guys must be immediately destroyed
I have made no promises.
I have, to her dismay, said I would think about it (weeks) and get back to her
I have made a decision… convince me otherwise.
I'm after experienced opinion. I have my own answers already, but I want those challenged. I also think this is a theme that may be useful to other readers.
============Warning: Long Post================
TL;DR
The question is one of having adequately screened a girl vs giving her more time to prove herself. More specifically: Do you believe people (girls) can change if they are gamed reasonably well early in the LTR.
THE BACKGROUND
I'm a mid-thirties Australian and based here. Got into game late (24) but then ratcheted up my notch count to the triple digits. Have done this through a variety of cold-approach SNL, D2s, and day game. Have also smashed tinder. Have run multiple MLTRs, and generally kept a healthy 2-3 girls in rotation at any one time.
The last 9 months or so I have been looking for a girl to settle down with. Speaking to a very experienced playa (also on this forum) I started to shift my perspective on recreational gaming to the screening process. I have my check-list. I have my deal-breakers. I have a strategy. I have a firm life direction and am comfortable leading a relationship as a man. However my experience in committed relationships is not solid, and I am learning that I probably distrust girls and am commitment-phobic more than I had appreciated, although perhaps that is justified… read on.
THE STORY
I same-meet-close a tinder flame in September of last year. HB7.5, super-fun, and we have great positive vibes. She is 4 years my junior, works as professional in Japan, is well-travelled (perhaps too well) and speaks fluent English. She is an atypical Japanese girl: Extroverted, adventurous, and heaps of fun. She stays with me again on her final night in the country. At the time I felt we had a good connection, and… well, we fall for each other hard. She returned to Japan (where she lives) and I thought that was that.
The next day she had messaged me. She wanted to return to Australia to see me. I had flagged her as non-LTR material (and, in a move of exasperated cynicism, went on to delete tinder and reset my sights on day game after she left) but definitely liked her company. I told her I was flattered but was attending a wedding that weekend (didn't invite her), could show her around in my free time. She visited, I did a road trip with her and left her alone for a good 5-6h whilst at my mates' wedding. She flew back to Japan and we stayed in contact – in fact she constantly texted and wanted to talk on the phone.
She visited another x2 weekends. Now, I have converted plenty of girls who were willing to travel for me, but this was an impressive level of investment. Still, I promised her nothing, and she still visited. After this last visit, I decided to call it quits. Wrote to her and spoke on the phone. This was mainly because of needing to put in long hours as part of a career move, but also I was getting the impression that she would keep going and burn herself out on a road to nowhere; I'm not a complete asshole.
She professed her love for me, was willing to keep flying out in the little spare time that she had; repeatedly invited me to visit her in Japan. I perhaps made an error in staking some LTR-frames early - in fact on her first visit (in truth, just being honest about what I was looking for long-term). Anyway. I enjoyed her company so much, I couldn't resist. We spoke more on the phone and she visited again in December.
A few weeks ago I went and stayed with her in Japan. During all her visits I was qualifying her hard - asked many questions about her past. This trip was no different, and she had been investing progressively more deeply since we met. Her past sexual/relationship is not favourable: early (14 years) first-time; "12" partners (ergo, much much more), lived in 2x Western countries before, and low ASD. I could go on. At one point I had described myself as a reformed partier and she loved this idea (of course) as she also had reformed from her partying days. She was/is very serious about an LTR, settling down, and having kids. For a long time, she has wanted to leave Japan to live abroad after obtaining her qualification.
In addition to her history, I had a lot of suspicion that she still had party girl habits. Visiting her in her home city confirmed that. She uses an English keyboard on her smartphone; she had a bee-line path from the local bar to her apartment door; etc. etc. In her favour, she had been in 3x LTRs in the past – the longest of these was 3 years and ended 12 months prior. In our discussions about the long-term future, she planned to finish her training in 14 months then move to be with me in Australia, and was willing to move straight away if I could commit to her straight away.
A further plunge down the deal-breaker list: I found irrefutable evidence that in her last LTR (the three-year one), they (as a couple) ran into difficulty and she cheated on him. Not once, but multiple times. After finding the evidence (old texts) I asked her point blank about having ever cheated. She looked me direct in the eye and said she never had .
That was it for me. After returning to Australia I called her up and broke it off. She was, understandably, at a loss as to my sudden change in demeanour (we had had a very romantic and fun week together in Japan). She was also heartbroken. I gave her the opportunity to go through it all with a fine tooth come with phone calls later that week. I explained I wasn't judging her past so much as her dishonesty with me and her lifestyle being one unsuited to a LTR with a mother raising children. We broke off contact on a stale note, with a suggestion of resuming contact in 6-8 weeks after time to cool down.
Contact resumed after 14 days – I had blocked all social media / email from her but received a direct international call to my phone. This was due to my emotional idiocy in missing her at this point,resulting in 2-3 emails; my bad. It gave us the opportunity to talk more (6+h). I was actually gald to hear from her. She had always insisted on her loyalty to me, and did this again. I insisted on her long-term plan and intentions etc. I asked for her facebook log in and, in a moment of extreme dread, she complied. She had met up with an ex- for a concert in December (she showed me texts to prove that nothing happened; it seems she was trying to rub in his face she had found someone else). She had met a tinder date perhaps two months ago for dinner but had since deleted the app. Fair enough. She had also been speaking to friends about how to get me back – expressing to them she was willing to wait for months whilst receiving the silent treatment from me. Explaining to them her loyalty (it seems she may not have slept with anyone since meeting met… who knows). Interestingly, one of these friends was a Western bloke geographically remote from her – likely an old flame from years back. Ie. She was emotionally outsourcing to this other guy in times of relationship stress it seems. I was not amused.
I explained again what I had during the break-up: That we both fell hard for each other, but perhaps have different values and are not compatible in the long- long- term. I re-iterated my entire philosophy of LTRs: Trust, honesty, respect. Traditionalist nuclear family (and was she compatible with it). What was appropriated in terms of ex- contacts (she deleted her ex's number from her phone then and there, promised to come to me first for LTR troubles) and that if we were to be together she would have to prove herself by living a holistic lifestyle, not contact any other guys, and yes, delete her social media contacts from around the world. She agreed. She wanted to call me every night (always has, in fact). From all that I have seen of her previous LTRs she is a natural follower, and she in fact broke up (and, apparently, cheated on) her 3-year LTR in the last year of that relationship because he didn't want to settle down. I have set strong leadership and prizeability from the get-go, and she has always complied with my frame. She wants to settle down and have kids. She has repeatedly said she doesn't think she'll find anyone better than me. We are both busy with our work and so it will be phone contact plus her visiting from overseas monthly (if I allow it).
There is more detail, but I have droned on enough (feel free to ask).
THE QUESTION
Is this juice worth the squeeze?
If not, why not?
If so, how would you go about it?
THE DISCUSSION
My answer is somewhat grey, I know others will see the situation as black and white.
Three maxims come to mind:
1. "you can't make a ho a housewife"
2. "The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour"
3. "Actions speak louder than words"
But.
I wanted to throw it out to the cast of thousands:
- This is a high level of investment in a girl whose long-term relationship goals align with mine. We otherwise get on well and I'm not afraid to say I have strong feelings for her. She is outgoing yet conforms to the feminine role at the drape of an arm or the pinch of the neck.
- She expressed remorse for her past actions and is afraid to lose my trust. She is willing to change her entire lifestyle and move country to give it a crack. She states she hadn't realise how important honesty is to me and agrees to tell me even if she makes a mistake (the details of that discussion is for another time…).
- I suspect I am naturally a bit distrustful; spinning plates is a nice solution to that, but in the context of a committed LTR, this is new territory. I do believe that she has not closed anyone since we met. Meet-ups with other guys must be immediately destroyed
I have made no promises.
I have, to her dismay, said I would think about it (weeks) and get back to her
I have made a decision… convince me otherwise.
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