[the1element]

A few weeks ago at work, these two photographers came through for lunch, I noticed that the cameras they had were these big expensive DSLRs and they definitely were not cameras for sight-seeing, these guys were professionals.

So we start talking, I ask them what they're here to shoot and they told me.

Thankfully, the place wasn't very busy so I ended up chatting with them for a good 10 minutes and mentioned my own interest in photography.

One of the guys mentions if I want to learn more about the industry and get involved.

I said

"Yes"

So he gave me his contact info, and said to keep in touch.

Well, I didn't realize it at the time but this guy I met who we'll call Chris is massively powerful in the fashion photography industry.

He told me he could get me an apprenticeship and that he wanted to see some of my work.

Next week, we met again I showed him some work and he liked some of it and other shots he thought were terrible. But he said he can pass my recommendation on to who runs the apprenticeships out of the UK.

I got in touch with the guy from the UK and now it seems I have a solid possibility of getting the apprenticeship.

There are about 500-600 applicants all over the world.

Problem is, the money. I was told I'd need to take a loan out and that the apprenticeship will be 2 years, then from there I can shoot my own models, run my own business and be skilled with everything relating to fashion photography.

The money is the big problem, which is making me hesitant.

I wasn't told exact numbers but it's going to be around the cost of a MBA in the US (I'm Canadian).

I'd definitely have to take a loan out.

But I want others opinions? What are your thoughts?

Alternatively..I just had an idea.

If I don't take this opportunity, I could take the same model and apply it to something else.

Let's say I want to learn copywriting (example), I could contact a top copywriter and say


"I want to learn from you, I'm willing to pay for your time under some form of apprenticeship. Are you interested?"

That might be a really good way to make money, acquire a skill and BYPASS school. I never did post-secondary and I really have no desire, but I'm afraid I'm going to be a bum the rest of my life.

[uhriginal]

If you know you’re going to be in the top 1-3% in your field, then the debt is worth it. Either way 5 figures in debt is worse than an STD

[Repo]

Cost of an MBA varies greatly in the US so your going to have to be more specific.

Also, I'm confused. The convo started out with you asking for an apprenticeship, getting pointed to someone else who gave you the cost for an apprenticeship, and then you want to bypass that apprenticeship to then ask someone else for an apprenticeship?

[Pete]

If it's worth it you'll only know it for yourself. The best advice I could give you is just listen to yourself, listen to your gut. If something inside you knows you want that then do it, but don't go after it if you're not 100%.

[Thomas the Rhymer]

What is the projected return on investment on this loan? I.e. how much money are you going to make, and how long will it take to pay off this loan and start making profit?

Then compare it to:
- the amount of money you will lose by not working
- the return on investment on other careers you are interested in; you might be able to make profit with less investment in other less glamourous careers.

Then you can decide whether it's worth it. But don't do photography unless the numbers make sense. There's no point doing what you love if you are so saddled with debt that you can't make profit.

[Lampwick]

Just throwing this out there, but are you sure this isn't some sort of scam? Is the loan necessary to pay this person for this "apprenticeship"? In my mind, the loan should be needed to cover your living and incidental expenses and equipment while you work for free in this apprenticeship. If you are being asked to pay US MBA prices (which can run well into six figures) to line this guy's pockets, then this may be a bad idea.

[the1element]

This seems like a sort of scam,

They want 1250 CAD for a top of the line apprenticeship...bullshit.

The guy that I'm talking to is telling me that he's making 9 grand a shoot.

Also, there's apparently 1000 applicants from across the world, and they only want fucking 1250?

That makes no sense.

Since when do you pay for an apprenticeship?

I'm going to ask for some proof that this thing is real.

[Repo]

Wait I thought it was the cost of an MBA? $1250 is nothing. Hell even a basical photography class at a local college here would cost about the same.

[the1element]

(01-18-2018 03:11 PM)Repo Wrote:  

Wait I thought it was the cost of an MBA? $1250 is nothing. Hell even a basical photography class at a local college here would cost about the same.

I know right man? I was thinking bloody 40 thousand or something.

I don't know how legit this is lol.

The guy told me I'd need financial backers... since when do you need backers for 1250 bucks lol.

[Seadog]

I would tread very carefully. I'm not saying it's a scam, but photography is one of those things like acting or modeling where it's possible to make boat loads of cash, and it's hard to really quantify what separates good from great. Therefore lot of people think there isn't much to it, hugely overestimate their skills, and call themselves a photographer or model because there is no barrier to entry (see every other girl on fb who's a "photographer").

Many people refuse to look at themselves realistically, and are stuck in the fantasy land of "if only someone would recognize how brilliant I am it would all come together!" Step in the facilitator/agent/guy with industry connections. They finally get how brilliant and skilled you are. They can happily make things happen for you. Mind you of course there are certain customary fees to pay for apprenticeships/headshots/promo video or whatever. They tell everyone they're a genius, everyone is going to get $9k a day for their shoots or acting, but only after you drop $500-$2k for whatever they're pitching. Maybe not a scam per se, but they prey on people's inflated sense of their own abilities, and are disingenuous with their evaluation of your work, because their primary motivation is to get you to sign up for something, not partner with you or have you represent their company.

There are considerably more photographers than there are jobs. Even guys for like BBC Planet Earth/Nat Geo type shots don't make great money, despite being quite prestigious. There are people who dedicate their lives to photography and still can't make enough to eat. Not to judge without knowing for sure, maybe you are world class and just never knew it, but typically those with just a casual interest in these sorts of things have commensurate skills. If this is as prestigious a program as they say, they're probably overwhelmed with qualified people, why would they be resorting to random casual meetings.

A true apprenticeship should be a mutually beneficial partnership. They take on truly skilled new people, with the long term idea of growing their brand in exchange for teaching you the ropes. After basketball scouts identify talent, do they make them pay try-out fees? No. They kiss their ass because they see the talent there, and realize once said talent comes to their team and is developed, their team will be much better off. It would be like someone coming up to me after a casual game at the Y telling me they have connections with the Lakers, like what they see, and want me to sign up for a basketball camp to develop me, and there's a chance afterwards that I'll be moving to LA to play pro.

[Repo]

I started a photography thread here, which several pros have posted in. You may want to reach out to one of them or just post there for advice, since you didn't mention photography in your thread title

thread-61963.html

[Off The Reservation]

(01-17-2018 12:58 PM)the1element Wrote:  

A few weeks ago at work, these two photographers came through for lunch, I noticed that the cameras they had were these big expensive DSLRs and they definitely were not cameras for sight-seeing, these guys were professionals.

So we start talking, I ask them what they're here to shoot and they told me.

Thankfully, the place wasn't very busy so I ended up chatting with them for a good 10 minutes and mentioned my own interest in photography.

One of the guys mentions if I want to learn more about the industry and get involved.

I said

"Yes"

So he gave me his contact info, and said to keep in touch.

Well, I didn't realize it at the time but this guy I met who we'll call Chris is massively powerful in the fashion photography industry.

He told me he could get me an apprenticeship and that he wanted to see some of my work.

Next week, we met again I showed him some work and he liked some of it and other shots he thought were terrible. But he said he can pass my recommendation on to who runs the apprenticeships out of the UK.

I got in touch with the guy from the UK and now it seems I have a solid possibility of getting the apprenticeship.

There are about 500-600 applicants all over the world.

Problem is, the money. I was told I'd need to take a loan out and that the apprenticeship will be 2 years, then from there I can shoot my own models, run my own business and be skilled with everything relating to fashion photography.

The money is the big problem, which is making me hesitant.

I wasn't told exact numbers but it's going to be around the cost of a MBA in the US (I'm Canadian).

I'd definitely have to take a loan out.

But I want others opinions? What are your thoughts?

Alternatively..I just had an idea.

If I don't take this opportunity, I could take the same model and apply it to something else.

Let's say I want to learn copywriting (example), I could contact a top copywriter and say


"I want to learn from you, I'm willing to pay for your time under some form of apprenticeship. Are you interested?"

That might be a really good way to make money, acquire a skill and BYPASS school. I never did post-secondary and I really have no desire, but I'm afraid I'm going to be a bum the rest of my life.

This is a really great question. I can't say how good or bad of an idea going into debt is for an internship but let me give you an alternate suggestion, that involves no debt and no paying someone to work.

1. Tomorrow when you wake up you are a professional photographer. It is hereby granted by RVF.

2. Make a starting goal list of what photo equipment you want to own, don't look at these clowns and wooo at their equipment, make a specific list of what you want. Remember the rule NEVER SELL YOUR GLASS. Pick a good lens and an acceptable body to start. Go used if need be. Write down the cost to get these items physically on a piece of paper and then figure out how to get them. Use my NIPS system if needed.

3. Learn on youtube, learn on magazines, go to clubs etc, and LEARN FROM CUSTOMERS. Instead of paying to shoot (which makes you a slave) you go to events, even meanngless bs events you find on facebook and tell them, "I am a professional photographer however I am just starting out I would like to shoot your even for free." You get practice, you get customer feedback, and you get a name.

4. Place an ad showing you will do model portfolios for free. You will meet hot chicks, do 20 or whatever for free, then start charging $50 etc.

5. Buy a domain name yourname.ca for $10 and install a free wordpress, if you cant figure it out pay some IRT $15 on upwork to do it. Yes thats all you need to spend. Make this your photography site and feature the best photos from the stupid events and wannabe models. Guess what, you now have a professional portfolio.

6. Learn what you can but never be beholden to some pricks who tell you they have all the keys and you need to kiss their ass and pay them... Fuck them.

7. Who says it has to take 2 years. What a load of crap. In 6 months using my method you will be the hottest young photographer in your town.

If you really love photography you love taking pictures. If that is the case then go take pictures, and live simple and cheap until such time as your dream is also paying you.

It pays you, you don't pay it.

[Off The Reservation]

The1element, also let us know whats on your camera list when you make it.

[the1element]

Shit, I read the email wrong. its 1250 per CREDIT x 60 credits.

75,000.

At least I know there's value but I don't know how wise it is to take out that big of a loan (if I even can).

[Off The Reservation]

Who can possibly take you seriously that you actually want to be a photographer, because you don't respond to myself or seadog or others that actually bothered to pass you some advice about photography. It's as if you see a blank screen if it isn't about you taking a loan.

Your Canadian public education has been effective, you cannot discern any step from any other step: your loan is waiting for your signature.

Somewhere, someone actually interested in photography is out taking pictures of models, getting published, getting a name, earning references, and enjoying what they do.

[the1element]

(01-18-2018 06:34 PM)Seadog Wrote:  

I would tread very carefully. I'm not saying it's a scam, but photography is one of those things like acting or modeling where it's possible to make boat loads of cash, and it's hard to really quantify what separates good from great. Therefore lot of people think there isn't much to it, hugely overestimate their skills, and call themselves a photographer or model because there is no barrier to entry (see every other girl on fb who's a "photographer").

Many people refuse to look at themselves realistically, and are stuck in the fantasy land of "if only someone would recognize how brilliant I am it would all come together!" Step in the facilitator/agent/guy with industry connections. They finally get how brilliant and skilled you are. They can happily make things happen for you. Mind you of course there are certain customary fees to pay for apprenticeships/headshots/promo video or whatever. They tell everyone they're a genius, everyone is going to get $9k a day for their shoots or acting, but only after you drop $500-$2k for whatever they're pitching. Maybe not a scam per se, but they prey on people's inflated sense of their own abilities, and are disingenuous with their evaluation of your work, because their primary motivation is to get you to sign up for something, not partner with you or have you represent their company.

There are considerably more photographers than there are jobs. Even guys for like BBC Planet Earth/Nat Geo type shots don't make great money, despite being quite prestigious. There are people who dedicate their lives to photography and still can't make enough to eat. Not to judge without knowing for sure, maybe you are world class and just never knew it, but typically those with just a casual interest in these sorts of things have commensurate skills. If this is as prestigious a program as they say, they're probably overwhelmed with qualified people, why would they be resorting to random casual meetings.

A true apprenticeship should be a mutually beneficial partnership. They take on truly skilled new people, with the long term idea of growing their brand in exchange for teaching you the ropes. After basketball scouts identify talent, do they make them pay try-out fees? No. They kiss their ass because they see the talent there, and realize once said talent comes to their team and is developed, their team will be much better off. It would be like someone coming up to me after a casual game at the Y telling me they have connections with the Lakers, like what they see, and want me to sign up for a basketball camp to develop me, and there's a chance afterwards that I'll be moving to LA to play pro.

I see what you're saying, I find it fishy that I asked the guy who I made contact with in the first place for a website or something so I know it's legit and he got kind of pissy with me. Here was his response.

"No its not and we really a figment of your imagination. Getting into this isn't a right, its a priveledge and only by invitation. I don't sing for my supper and I don't show my stuff to anyone not in the business. I dont mean to be rude, I set up parameters to avoid swatting people down. Your best bet is ask them your questions. Currently they have two letters in hand and thats it."

(01-19-2018 12:58 AM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  

(01-17-2018 12:58 PM)the1element Wrote:  

A few weeks ago at work, these two photographers came through for lunch, I noticed that the cameras they had were these big expensive DSLRs and they definitely were not cameras for sight-seeing, these guys were professionals.

So we start talking, I ask them what they're here to shoot and they told me.

Thankfully, the place wasn't very busy so I ended up chatting with them for a good 10 minutes and mentioned my own interest in photography.

One of the guys mentions if I want to learn more about the industry and get involved.

I said

"Yes"

So he gave me his contact info, and said to keep in touch.

Well, I didn't realize it at the time but this guy I met who we'll call Chris is massively powerful in the fashion photography industry.

He told me he could get me an apprenticeship and that he wanted to see some of my work.

Next week, we met again I showed him some work and he liked some of it and other shots he thought were terrible. But he said he can pass my recommendation on to who runs the apprenticeships out of the UK.

I got in touch with the guy from the UK and now it seems I have a solid possibility of getting the apprenticeship.

There are about 500-600 applicants all over the world.

Problem is, the money. I was told I'd need to take a loan out and that the apprenticeship will be 2 years, then from there I can shoot my own models, run my own business and be skilled with everything relating to fashion photography.

The money is the big problem, which is making me hesitant.

I wasn't told exact numbers but it's going to be around the cost of a MBA in the US (I'm Canadian).

I'd definitely have to take a loan out.

But I want others opinions? What are your thoughts?

Alternatively..I just had an idea.

If I don't take this opportunity, I could take the same model and apply it to something else.

Let's say I want to learn copywriting (example), I could contact a top copywriter and say


"I want to learn from you, I'm willing to pay for your time under some form of apprenticeship. Are you interested?"

That might be a really good way to make money, acquire a skill and BYPASS school. I never did post-secondary and I really have no desire, but I'm afraid I'm going to be a bum the rest of my life.

This is a really great question. I can't say how good or bad of an idea going into debt is for an internship but let me give you an alternate suggestion, that involves no debt and no paying someone to work.

1. Tomorrow when you wake up you are a professional photographer. It is hereby granted by RVF.

2. Make a starting goal list of what photo equipment you want to own, don't look at these clowns and wooo at their equipment, make a specific list of what you want. Remember the rule NEVER SELL YOUR GLASS. Pick a good lens and an acceptable body to start. Go used if need be. Write down the cost to get these items physically on a piece of paper and then figure out how to get them. Use my NIPS system if needed.

3. Learn on youtube, learn on magazines, go to clubs etc, and LEARN FROM CUSTOMERS. Instead of paying to shoot (which makes you a slave) you go to events, even meanngless bs events you find on facebook and tell them, "I am a professional photographer however I am just starting out I would like to shoot your even for free." You get practice, you get customer feedback, and you get a name.

4. Place an ad showing you will do model portfolios for free. You will meet hot chicks, do 20 or whatever for free, then start charging $50 etc.

5. Buy a domain name yourname.ca for $10 and install a free wordpress, if you cant figure it out pay some IRT $15 on upwork to do it. Yes thats all you need to spend. Make this your photography site and feature the best photos from the stupid events and wannabe models. Guess what, you now have a professional portfolio.

6. Learn what you can but never be beholden to some pricks who tell you they have all the keys and you need to kiss their ass and pay them... Fuck them.

7. Who says it has to take 2 years. What a load of crap. In 6 months using my method you will be the hottest young photographer in your town.

If you really love photography you love taking pictures. If that is the case then go take pictures, and live simple and cheap until such time as your dream is also paying you.

It pays you, you don't pay it.

Camera list, right now I have a D300s with a Nikon Nikkor 80-200 mm lense. f/2.8 . I've had this set-up for probably two years now.

I checked out the NIPS system, that's pretty interesting. I'm going to apply it in my own life (not just photography).

I love taking pictures, I bring my camera everywhere.

Good advice man.

(01-19-2018 11:21 AM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  

The1element, also let us know whats on your camera list when you make it.

(01-20-2018 01:08 PM)Off The Reservation Wrote:  

Who can possibly take you seriously that you actually want to be a photographer, because you don't respond to myself or seadog or others that actually bothered to pass you some advice about photography. It's as if you see a blank screen if it isn't about you taking a loan.

Your Canadian public education has been effective, you cannot discern any step from any other step: your loan is waiting for your signature.

Somewhere, someone actually interested in photography is out taking pictures of models, getting published, getting a name, earning references, and enjoying what they do.

Honestly, that was my bad. You wrote good advice, I'm going to follow it.

I think 75k for this photography apprenticeship is silly.

[I DIDN'T KILL MY WIFE]

Paying for an apprenticeship is ALWAYS silly, no matter which one it is. You're already donating your time and effort for free, don't also pay for that privilege.

You don't need a "degree" in photography to be a photographer. Hell, there's A LOT of actual professional seminars and workshops for every topic under the sun that you could visit for that amount of money. A lot of apprenticeships are menial tasks that the one offering is happy to offload on you

[Off The Reservation]

I see we got your attention.

It's the doing that makes you a photographer not the prestige of the guys selling an avenue in. You will surpass them in no time.

Huge Leica fan here btw.

[Off The Reservation]

update?