rooshvforum.network is a fully functional forum: you can search, register, post new threads etc...
Old accounts are inaccessible: register a new one, or recover it when possible. x


Time Travel discussion
#1

Time Travel discussion

I've always thought time travel was a deep topic to discuss although discussing the consequences can give some people headaches. Some people believe in it and some don't.

Do you guys believe in things like time travel, a multiverse and time loops? It always peaked my interest after watching the Terminator films. Each film is essentially the time loop being done over and over again and Genisys was showing the end of it.
Reply
#2

Time Travel discussion

Leaving aside the issue of whether time travel is possible or not, I'd like to cite one of my favourite works of fiction in this space: the out-of-print (but still around in PDF form) role-playing game Continuum. It's one of those games where the rulebook is more interesting than the actual game, but its model of time travel - and more importantly the civilisation that springs up around time travel - was deep and an engrossing work of science fiction in its own right. It probably didn't do well because the concept of four-dimensional combat (combat through time, that is) is set out in the book and is damn hard to visualise let alone adjudicate.

The foundation concepts are these:

- There are thousands of time travellers, living up and down the run of history. Time travel caused/causes/has caused an entire civilisation to spring up based around it because time travellers are not constrained by having to wait around for things to happen, but are nonetheless constrained by causality.

- If you invented time travel, the first thing you would logically do would be to go as far into the future as required to find out the most efficient way of doing it. The most efficient form of time travel is when it's part of your own physical makeup. That is, your genes mark you as a time traveller, no DeLorean required. Remember that sad Hayden Christiansen/Samuel Jackson movie Jumper? Exactly like that, except through time as well as space.

- All of the various models of spacetime as represented in fiction are fallacious. Neither the "Grandfather Paradox", "the Universe heals its own paradoces", or the "You create a new universe when you change the past" are correct models of spacetime within the game (in fact the latter is seen as a very, very dangerous misconception - one taken up by the game's antagonists, known as Narcissists.) The truth is that there is ultimately only one timeline, only one series of events, which only continues to exist by the application of sentient force to paradoxes (simply put, situations where cause and effect are out of whack or the causality does not make sense) when they occur. You can't go back in time and shoot your grandfather, because other time travellers will intervene to stop you doing so or if need be go further back in time and make sure the gun you use is defective and blows up in your hand.

See the delicious bootstrap levitation in this? Because the Continuum exists, it therefore must be because one timeline is in place, and the one timeline creates the Continuum.

If you do allow a paradox (which time travel is highly likely to cause) to occur, if unchecked and unhealed it literally will destroy the universe with enough time. The only reason it doesn't happen is because it is the responsibility of all time travellers to fix the paradox as it occurs. (This also turns a crisis in existence into an in-character problem as well: if you don't fix a paradox you created or which is seen as your responsibility, someone else has to/will do it, which then means the entire civilisation frowns on you for your lack of duty to the greater good.) Sometimes fixing the paradox will actually involve the creation of another paradox, again, as we'll see.

- The civilisation that allows the universe to keep existing is called the Continuum (and no, it doesn't have anything to do with the Q.) Because it's a civilisation comprised entirely of time travellers, it exists in all time periods, from the point where humanity emerged from a previous, causality-shredding empire (roughly 16,000 BC or so) to the time of the Inheritors (roughly 4,000 AD or so) which is basically when humanity "ascends to a higher plane of existence". (Time travellers, bar the level 20s, er, the Exalted, are forbidden to go outside those chronological limits.)

The driving force of this time travelling civilisation is causality.

However, infinite time travel doesn't mean you have infinite knowledge -- or that just because the Continuum exists that all events known to you are immutable. Doesn't work like that. Even very powerful time travellers (Span 4) still have to rest after time travelling 1,000 years or so. And finding out (say) through personal knowledge the trajectory of the JFK headshot is going to take you a while -- assuming you're even allowed to get anywhere near Dealey Plaza by random Narcissists or Continuum agents wrestling over that part of the timeline.

Also, whilst, from the point of view of a non-time-traveller, the clock seems stopped for you, your body's biological clock is still ticking away. You are still heading towards the ultimate consequence of a mortal life, even with the age-slowing technologies available to higher level time travellers that extend human life out to a good 200, 300 years or more.

It isn't always the answer to "jump out, become a black belt, come back and kick the guy's butt." It's not the Matrix. You still have to account for all that time spent at Mr Miyagi's dojo, and it might take you 10 years of your life -- time which, unless you're very, very careful about it, you are vulnerable since you're a standing target. And then, even assuming you can spare those 10 years off your life, if you jump back into the same moment you left, your friends and family in that time period might look at you a bit quizzically when you've gone from the age of 17 to 27 in literally a day of their time.

Also: too much knowledge is dangerous in this game, because with too much information you risk causality's integrity - the more you know you're going to do, the more bound you are to ensure you get it just right, the less likely you are to get the loop of cause and effect round the right way, and the greater the risk you'll tell someone something that causes a paradox.

The game phrase "Further information is not available here" is the touchstone for this concept: it's a completely neutral phrase that simply expresses that you shouldn't/can't/won't know the answer to a given question at this point in spacetime. Doesn't stop you learning it somwhere or somewhen else.

Causality making sense in the game =/= the timeline being identical every time down to the last subatomic particle; if it was like that then the game simply couldn't exist at all. In the game there's a cottage industry in the Continuum putting actors -- very, very good actors, named, who'da thunk it, the Thespians -- in the place of famous people who've been wiped or erased early from the timeline so causality to everyone who remembers it is not affected. Similar with the Antiquarians, who replace objects as Thespians replace people: has the Mona Lisa been destroyed by a Narcissist? No problem; you need to either get it painted again or go back into time before it was burned and replace it with an exact duplicate. Causality's preserved, but not the precise way it happened the first time. A lot of Continuum work is along these lines.

Also, the certainty of the universe continuing to exist does not mean you will continue to do so. Your character can die according to the timeline ... or he can die unexpectedly and thus be in receipt of so much paradox they are erased from existence in order to correct causality. Remember, the Continuum's only goal is to preserve the timeline and to eliminate paradoxes. If your very existence involves so much inherent paradox that they can't fix it -- your father's been shot dead before he can meet your mother and nobody can figure out when or where it happened -- then the Continuum's as likely to erase you from the timeline. Similar goes for anyone who sees a time traveller disappear or reappear; causality making sense matters more.

I've always liked this concept because it answers the most obvious argument against time travel: if there are time travellers, why haven't we seen any of them? Why haven't they filled up all space and time with themselves by now? It answers the question by saying: a time traveller revealing his existence before time travel is discovered would cause an unsolveable paradox for the universe, therefore every time traveller must adhere to not revealing time travel's existence before The Appointed Time.

Remissas, discite, vivet.
God save us from people who mean well. -storm
Reply
#3

Time Travel discussion

That game surely has some interesting concepts.

Regarding time travel, there is a whole commune dedicated to it. Its called Federation Damanhur and is situated in the northern Italy. A weird society where people call themselves by the names of animals and plants (animal - first name, plant - last name) and live in some kind of utopia hides a temple that has been carved out the Alps which are near there. Damahur is practically independent from Italy and got it after series of courtroom cases and even a police raid where Italy attempted to destroy them. Why temple in stone? Alps have huge quantities of quartz and quartz always played role in occult as a powerful crystal medium.

Also, location of Damanhur is not coincidental. Not only there are large deposits of quartz, place is situated on the crossing of 4 ley lines (dragon lines) which they call "synchronic lines" and that together with one point in Tibet is unique place on Earth. For those who are not familiar with concept, ley lines are supposed energetic meridians that go flow through planet in various directions. From the earliest history, people built important buildings on crossings of these lines.
For example in Istria, Croatia there is a web called "archetype of Istra". All archeological wonders (most of them done by unknown buildiers) are following specific lines that when drawn on map form a shape that looks like a claw. Also, town Motovun, famous for its movie festival is situated on hill that is directly on crossing. Istra is thus called Terra Magica. Damahur, like whole northern Italy is in continuation from Istria.

Whole concept of their time travel is explained in book Esoteric Physics by one of its inhabitants Coyote Cardo. Cardo explains that their time machine is very simple in design but that it doesn't serve to transport you physically in time, but that it shifts your consciousness to a specific time. They explain that world has memory and that synchronic lines hold that memory together with other mechanisms which I am not discussing here (read book by Cardo to know more).
It is even better when civilization in past has made same device so they can easily hop here and there without having to search specific "windows".

Skepticism:
Obviously scientific establishment doesn't want to even talk about that so Damahur attracts alternative researchers. One relatively famous Croatian researchers went there and got back with very deep insights which in his opinion shattered his skepticism. Also, one guy I know had also insights. I am also looking forward to go there, but I know I will not get all the answers.
Reply
#4

Time Travel discussion

Quote: (07-14-2017 03:22 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Whole concept of their time travel is explained in book Esoteric Physics by one of its inhabitants Coyote Cardo. Cardo explains that their time machine is very simple in design but that it doesn't serve to transport you physically in time, but that it shifts your consciousness to a specific time. They explain that world has memory and that synchronic lines hold that memory together with other mechanisms which I am not discussing here (read book by Cardo to know more).
It is even better when civilization in past has made same device so they can easily hop here and there without having to search specific "windows".


Does this mean you can only see (or experience) the future and past, but are totaly unable to change it ?
Reply
#5

Time Travel discussion

Interesting concept:

No matter which direction you're going in time, all your past experiences at any time will still be from the past, so you'll only ever experience time as moving forward. ie; time could be going backwards and that would be totally irrelevant to our experience
Reply
#6

Time Travel discussion

Quote: (12-08-2017 08:40 PM)Mercenary Wrote:  

Does this mean you can only see (or experience) the future and past, but are totaly unable to change it ?

I left out part about meddling with past because I would go off topic but I will answer it to you what I read.
So Damanhurians claim they mostly used "consciousness transfer method" to view past, in particular Antediluvian period of Earth, where there were some civilizations that had similar experiences so they made a link between present and past.
But they also say that you can physically experience past and of course change it by possessing a willing individual from past. They did that by cooperating with these antediluvian civilizations, not by offensive actions of possessing individuals without their consent.
To track if they would accidentally change something, they would take important documents and books showing world events and put them in "neutral chambers". These chambers ensure that documents would not change if world events would change. You could see the differences by taking books put in neutral chamber and comparing them with same book from outside the chamber.

Bottom line, they have really elaborate stories and are very interesting to read, but aside from that, even those who want to believe in this stuff will never get definitive evidence, as time travel technology is conveniently reserved for their inner circle.
Although I already mentioned two guys that went and believed.
Reply
#7

Time Travel discussion

Quote: (12-09-2017 07:05 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

But they also say that you can physically experience past and of course change it by possessing a willing individual from past. They did that by cooperating with these antediluvian civilizations, not by offensive actions of possessing individuals without their consent.


So you experience (and influence) a different timeline by entering the body of another person from that time, ? A person who is ok with that being done to them ?

And does that mean people in the present time can have someone from another time posessing them if they consent to it ?
Reply
#8

Time Travel discussion

I reread again the chapter as I wasn't completely sure I was telling correctly and discovered this:

- First option is using your own body to travel. Past civilizations had made chambers for easily taking travelers instead of them appearing in the middle of nowhere.
- Second option is possession of willing individual from that time.

So I was a bit wrong. In both cases you can influence timeline/timelines. Apparently vice versa travels were not done or are not mentioned in the books. I can theorize about why was that.
Reply
#9

Time Travel discussion

Quote: (12-09-2017 07:41 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

I reread again the chapter as I wasn't completely sure I was telling correctly and discovered this:

- First option is using your own body to travel. Past civilizations had made chambers for easily taking travelers instead of them appearing in the middle of nowhere.


Any pictures of these chambers ? (From the past civilizations I mean)
Reply
#10

Time Travel discussion

The concept of time travel gives me a headache if I think about it too much. The paradox of time travel is that if it is possible than it would always have to happen that way. Meaning if I for instance went back in time to influence may parents to do something in order for me to get the point in the future where I would make the same decision to travel back in time I would always have had to have gone back in time and did what I did...if that makes sense.

It's like the Butterfly Effect (the movie and the concept) one small change in the past can drastically alter the course and trajectory of one's life. Consequently if I didn't go back in time in my hypothetical scenario my life would be drastically different, my parents may not have had me, etc.

A good movie illustration of this concept is The Terminator. Skynet sends the cyborg back in time to kill Sarah Connor so the resistance sends Kyle Reese back to protect. Reese and Connor hook up and she gets pregnant with John Connor, thus necessitating in the future that Skynet would have to send a cyborg back in time to attempt to kill Sarah Connor. If Skynet doesn't send the cyborg back in time Reese doesn't go and John Connor is never born. There is no timeline where John Connor is alive and Skynet doesn't send Arnold back to 1984 Los Angeles.
Reply
#11

Time Travel discussion

Quote: (12-09-2017 07:46 AM)Mercenary Wrote:  

Any pictures of these chambers ? (From the past civilizations I mean)

No, there are descriptions of other technologies. I am reading from Croatian edition and I have a bit trouble translating it on English. I think there is a book in English available on torrents.
Reply
#12

Time Travel discussion

Not this subject again, it's been covered to death on this board in 2021 and 2024.

“Nothing is more useful than to look upon the world as it really is.”
Reply
#13

Time Travel discussion

Quote: (07-13-2017 09:19 PM)Kurgan Wrote:  

Do you guys believe in things like time travel, a multiverse and time loops? It always peaked my interest after watching the Terminator films. Each film is essentially the time loop being done over and over again and Genisys was showing the end of it.

Not really. I don't think backward time travel is possible, at least not in any sort of interactive way. It makes for interesting entertainment but I don't think it's likely. I think it might be possible to see into the past, but I don't think it will involve your physical body actually existing in the past.

We do know that time travel to the future is possible. In fact we've done it. Flying all the way around the world in a commercial jet will take you a few nanoseconds into the future relative to someone on the ground.

Although, that's really less about "time travel" per se and more about the idea that time flows at different speeds depending on movement and gravity.
Reply
#14

Time Travel discussion

Quote: (12-12-2017 12:53 PM)Blaster Wrote:  

Quote: (07-13-2017 09:19 PM)Kurgan Wrote:  

Do you guys believe in things like time travel, a multiverse and time loops? It always peaked my interest after watching the Terminator films. Each film is essentially the time loop being done over and over again and Genisys was showing the end of it.

Not really. I don't think backward time travel is possible, at least not in any sort of interactive way. It makes for interesting entertainment but I don't think it's likely. I think it might be possible to see into the past, but I don't think it will involve your physical body actually existing in the past.

I read the weirdest fucking theory written by a guy who claims to be ex secret space program worker and now a whistleblower. Most things he writes he says were told to him as he worked there.
One theory is that the nephilim were time travellers, who came back in time.

Quote:Quote:

However, I was also told that the vampire races are from the sons of Cain and are literally the first people to eat other people and this is due to the original women of that time being raped by ‘fallen’ angels who are simply humans who went back in time to produce offspring through the use of time-travel technology and that this produced genetic paradoxes in the DNA which caused sub-human degradation. Basically, they ruined their DNA by going back in time and trying to use rape to become the progenitors and rulers of all people.

Weird stuff, but you gotta admit whether he is legit or not, that's some creative shit.

Also check out his youtube channel where he explains these things with a poker face .
Reply
#15

Time Travel discussion

loremipsum, that vampire - Lilith story is very "old" (not too old, a new age stuff), he is not the first one nor the last to talk about this. He just gave it his own spin, but I will see his channel just for fun.
Reply
#16

Time Travel discussion

Quote: (12-09-2017 09:13 AM)Raylan Givens Wrote:  

The concept of time travel gives me a headache if I think about it too much. The paradox of time travel is that if it is possible than it would always have to happen that way. Meaning if I for instance went back in time to influence may parents to do something in order for me to get the point in the future where I would make the same decision to travel back in time I would always have had to have gone back in time and did what I did...if that makes sense.

It's like the Butterfly Effect (the movie and the concept) one small change in the past can drastically alter the course and trajectory of one's life. Consequently if I didn't go back in time in my hypothetical scenario my life would be drastically different, my parents may not have had me, etc.

A good movie illustration of this concept is The Terminator. Skynet sends the cyborg back in time to kill Sarah Connor so the resistance sends Kyle Reese back to protect. Reese and Connor hook up and she gets pregnant with John Connor, thus necessitating in the future that Skynet would have to send a cyborg back in time to attempt to kill Sarah Connor. If Skynet doesn't send the cyborg back in time Reese doesn't go and John Connor is never born. There is no timeline where John Connor is alive and Skynet doesn't send Arnold back to 1984 Los Angeles.


Funny thing in Terminator: Genysis,the loop finally gets broken when John Connor, now part of Skynet, gets killed which means Kyle is no longer his father, Sara and Pops can now stop Skynet without John. There was an article detailing the timeline throughout the films. The most interesting part was the first sentence. It was the end of the loop that has plagued the films and speculated it lasted years, centuries and even millennia.
Reply
#17

Time Travel discussion

Re the fictional angle:

One of my favorite novels is "The Far Arena."
Not technically time travel, but more like Rip van Winkel:

Quote:Quote:

The Far Arena is a 1979 novel by Richard Sapir. It chronicles the adventures of Eugeni, a Roman gladiator from the age of Domitian, who, due to a highly unlikely series of events, is frozen in ice for nineteen centuries before being found by the Houghton Oil Company on a prospecting mission in the north Atlantic.

Got it on Amazon, but I think it's out of print.
Great storytelling with solidly written historical flashbacks; some "pseudo-science" some might say, but actually more along the lines of 'what ifs' ala Crichton; a welcome religious angle, historically speaking.

Imagine a conversation between a present-day nun with a Roman gladiator. That's as much as i'll spoil it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Far_Arena
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)