[Jetset]

(01-29-2018 05:31 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

I wrote something in a self-defence thread a while back about why the most important thing you can do to deal with home invasions is to strengthen the entry points of your house so that you have time to arm yourself, call the police and get your head straight.

A few years ago, I told my contractor buddy I wanted the place hardened against a naval bombardment.

He assumed it was a figure of speech. Man, he was pissed about the cost overruns, but I think he really made it all up with how much he learned.

[Leonard D Neubache]

Personally my favourite home defence strategy is this:

Be out of range of public fucking transport.

[Dulceácido]

So many things were done wrong by the police in this... First of all, Arizona is an open carry state. Anyone over 21 can carry a firearm openly or concealed as long as they have no other prohibitions without the need of a license. Why the hell are they making such a big deal of this?

Secondly, the cops shouting threats that they're going to kill him and then giving contradictory instructions. Cross your legs, lay on your face, hands out in front of you, palms down, now on your knees, now hands straight up in the air, now crawl to me.. Wtf is all that? That is NOT the way you control someone you are about to take prisoner. They had him proned out. He wasn't moving. They had guys covering him. That's when you advance and subdue/cuff the target.

That cop should be in prison. His superior should be relieved of command.

[Atlanta Man]

(01-29-2018 03:22 AM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  

(01-29-2018 01:37 AM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  

Search 'all lives matter' on the forum and you will see this is a dupe. As a black man this wounded me deeply- he begged for his life......

I don't mean to sound flippant but what's the significance here?

Because I have gone from minding my own business and having a good time, to looking down the barrel of a police officers gun getting screamed at-because someone called in a report about "suspicious behavior and a bunch of big black guys"-thank god I was sober at the time. This poor man had probably never had a negative encounter with the police in his life prior to the night of his murder, and did not know how they can turn deadly in a second.

[Doogie]

The USA is fucked up. I'm Canadian. My ex called the cops on me 2 weeks ago claiming I threatened her from 6 months ago (she has already moved out).

I have guns which I have to turn over because of her claim. Cops show up at my door, knock and were very pleasant about the whole thing. They even let me get my guns unsupervised and hand them over. They were totally cool about it. They looked relaxed and at no time did I feel they were going to freakout.

I couldn't imagine if they had showed up yelling and screaming and giving stupid orders that barely make sense.

Man you guys need to chill down there.

[godfather dust]

You don't even need to read the verdict in these police shootings, just assume it's one of the 99% that result in aquittal.

A few more years of this, and "start shooting" will be a much more common response when the cops show up...

[Dulceácido]

Very poor training. Many poor decisions. One dumb ass guy dead that didn't need to be dead. One sociopath, chickenshit, rookie cop's life is ruined, although I get the feeling this POS is probably proud of himself. Look what the idiot had etched on his rifle:



So unprofessional.

Not to mention, you never have two people giving commands to a person you're trying to take prisoner--NEVER.

You never put a rookie on point when there are other veteran officers there. That guy should have been all the way to the rear of the stack.

You have the guy in charge saying, "If you reach down again, we are going to shoot you!" What does that tell the rookie cop? It's okay to shoot him if he reaches down.

If you suspect a person is armed with a pistol, why the fuck would you have him crawl closer to you? So, he'd be at close range, which is a much greater threat, if he did decide to try to get the drop on you.
Don't crawl to me. Don't come near me. You stay where you are. Turn your head don't look at me. Keep your arms straight out and DO NOT MOVE.
One guy calls "prisoner control!" He gets out the restraints. The other guy calls, "Cover!" Then you move together as pair and take control of the prisoner. 22 years in the military and 11 deployments and I never saw someone play "Simon Says" with a dude then execute him. If I'd done that, I'd be in Leavenworth.

[AneroidOcean]

(01-29-2018 04:46 PM)Dulceácido Wrote:  

So unprofessional.

Agreed on the inscription, but ultimately the inscription means far less than his actions.

(01-29-2018 04:46 PM)Dulceácido Wrote:  

Not to mention, you never have two people giving commands to a person you're trying to take prisoner--NEVER.

You never put a rookie on point when there are other veteran officers there. That guy should have been all the way to the rear of the stack.

You have the guy in charge saying, "If you reach down again, we are going to shoot you!" What does that tell the rookie cop? It's okay to shoot him if he reaches down.

If you suspect a person is armed with a pistol, why the fuck would you have him crawl closer to you? So, he'd be at close range, which is a much greater threat, if he did decide to try to get the drop on you.
Don't crawl to me. Don't come near me. You stay where you are. Turn your head don't look at me. Keep your arms straight out and DO NOT MOVE.
One guy calls "prisoner control!" He gets out the restraints. The other guy calls, "Cover!" Then you move together as pair and take control of the prisoner. 22 years in the military and 11 deployments and I never saw someone play "Simon Says" with a dude then execute him. If I'd done that, I'd be in Leavenworth.

These are police, not military. Your entire premise is flawed and you didn't actually read the details. As it's been listed in this thread multiple times, the shooter was NOT the guy barking orders at the suspect.

There were not two guys barking orders, there was one. There was a separate shooter with the inscription on his rifle

All kinds of fucked up in this scenario, but read carefully if you're going to comment.

[Dulceácido]

I know they're not military and my premise is not flawed, because the good ones that don't make these mistakes come to us for training. Stupid decision to put the new guy up front.

I never said the guy barking the orders was the shooter. I'm not sure why you thought that.

Sounds to me like two distinct voices shouting the commands which would explain the orders being contradictory. "On your belly, on your knees, cross your legs, crawl to me." Go back and watch the video again and listen carefully.

I did read several articles about the incident, perhaps I misunderstood about whose rifle the inscription was on, but it's still very inappropriate in the public sector on an issued weapon.

I wish I never saw that video. If my use of the word "prisoner" bothers you, substitute the word "suspect." There. Now it's Law Enforcement friendly. The tactics don't change.

[Jetset]

(01-29-2018 08:05 PM)Dulceácido Wrote:  

Sounds to me like two distinct voices shouting the commands which would explain the orders being contradictory. "On your belly, on your knees, cross your legs, crawl to me." Go back and watch the video again and listen carefully.

There was a Reno 911 sketch like this years ago, but I couldn't find it, where they're giving an increasingly terrified driver a hard time over his over-the-counter medicine at a traffic stop.

"Look at me when I'm talking to you!"

"Look at him when you're talking to me!"

"Look at me when I'm talking to him!"

"Look at me when he's talking to you!"

[Blancpain]

This is first degree murder.

[Super_Fire]

Just one more reason not to live in the US anymore. Sad.

[germanico]

"Hop on one foot, spin around thrice, then touch your left foot with your right hand while pulling on your right ear with your left hand, and recite the national anthem backwards CORRECTLY or I WILL SHOOT YOU"

Definitely not murder.

He could have just told him to stay down with his hands on his head while he waited for backup to cuff him. No, nobody has time for that.

[AneroidOcean]

(01-29-2018 08:05 PM)Dulceácido Wrote:  

I know they're not military and my premise is not flawed, because the good ones that don't make these mistakes come to us for training. Stupid decision to put the new guy up front.

I never said the guy barking the orders was the shooter. I'm not sure why you thought that.

Sounds to me like two distinct voices shouting the commands which would explain the orders being contradictory. "On your belly, on your knees, cross your legs, crawl to me." Go back and watch the video again and listen carefully.

I did read several articles about the incident, perhaps I misunderstood about whose rifle the inscription was on, but it's still very inappropriate in the public sector on an issued weapon.

I wish I never saw that video.

I was trying to lay out the situation, I should've written that better so it doesn't imply you said the guy barking orders was the shooter.

However, you still glossed over the previous posts or simply didn't read them as you believe there were two officers shouting orders. This would be new and IMPORTANT information if it were true. If you'd read some articles you would've come across the fact that there was only one guy barking orders and one guy shooting as I have. Since my last post there's been this article confirming there was only one officer shouting orders:

Quote:

At one point in the video, Shaver puts his hands down and behind his back. Langley, who was in charge and the only one yelling out commands, quickly orders him to put them back in the air or else he would be shot, the video shows.

Also from the same article:

Quote:

Langley told the 11-member jury Tuesday that he would have shot Shaver if Brailsford wasn’t in his line of fire.

There's also been the below TMZ article showing that he'd had prior discipline (bold emphasis mine):

Quote:

The Sergeant who repeatedly threatened to kill Daniel Shaver in the moments leading up to his death was under review for his abusive attitude ... TMZ has learned.

Charles Langley was the supervisor on scene in January 2016 when officer Philip Brailsford gunned down Shaver at a Mesa, Arizona hotel. You hear Langley bark a series of threats, including, "You do that again we're shooting you, do you understand?!"

Turns out Langley was disciplined back in 2010 for bad behavior. Internal affairs reprimanded him for "personal behavior, conduct and attitude toward coworkers and superiors, defaming or discrediting coworkers," and most significantly -- "failure to lead subordinates consistent with the mission and vision of the Mesa Police Department" ... this according to police documents obtained by TMZ.

Langley was ordered to improve his work ethic and required to take training courses, and if he didn't get better, he was threatened with termination.

Langley retired in April 2016, just 3 months after Shaver's death, and moved to the Philippines. He wasn't in the country to face punishment for his role in the shooting.

We're told Shaver's family plans to use this information as evidence in their lawsuit against the Mesa PD, claiming Langley was unfit to be leading the unit that resulted in Brailsford killing Shaver.

I think that the guy barking orders is at least as culpable as the guy who shot. Interesting that he left the force and retired to the Philippines. I hope the family wins a huge settlement but more importantly that the department (and ultimately police around the nation) can become better at protecting and serving, not escalating and slaughtering.

[Dulceácido]

I bet Mesa PD doesn't change one thing about their training tactics. And, I agree, that guy barking a million different ridiculous orders is completely incompetent. That's probably why he jumped ship. In "boys clubs" like this, when you fuck up big time, that reputation follows you forever. After this incident, he probably couldn't lead a horse to water, much less lead other officers.

[germanico]

Serious question:

Would they have been in the clear to shoot him if he had just said "No officer, you are confusing me so Ill just lay down here with my hands above my head"?

[Dulceácido]

I would've done just that. I would've laid there face down with my arms extended and said, "I'm scared and confused. I'm not going to move."

Lots of my friends are in law enforcement and one told me today, discussing this incident, that in the academy they show video after video of people "acting" compliant and then attack you at the last minute. This gets engrained in the officers heads. That's why you need an experienced officer up front.