How does Tom Torero compare with Roosh V?
12-10-2017, 11:16 PM
I got mixed feelings on this guy. On the one hand, credit to him for the amount of work he put in, he really seems to have approached like a diseased monkey approaches a forest full of banana trees, his approaches alone could in a single month burn out an entire small city (300-500k).
Even with all that "skill", that entire complex "scientific" model, his conversion rates from approach to lay are very low, lower than Krauser's. Again, credit to him for having the balls to run up to girls in the middle of whatever situation, say on a very busy street with an audience of dozens, and keep his cool. Humans weren't necessarily "designed" for cold approach, especially on this scale, and while I know we can change our thoughts and behaviors to a certain degree, I'm wondering if there is some degree of autism or disorder similar to it where his brain's wiring actually doesn't allow him to give a fuck. He says he viewed day game as "therapy", and while I can see what he means, day game for beginners can be more destructive than therapeutic, "beginner's hell" as Krauser calls it, which is an inevitable stage everyone (but precious few) has to go through into being intermediate and reasonably comfortable with day game.
He's also responsible for a lot of decline of European cities as far as daygame goes. His numbers are so low but because he earns a living from teaching the same shit he can justify continuing to do the bootcamps all over Europe and writing his books on doing the same. To most guys, the work he does for one lay is prohibitively high. That's why most guys who do day game seem to lock down the first quality chick they find, because they are aware of the grind that awaits if they just throw away the girl they just banged.
Just from watching a few of his videos he just seems like an overall dodgy character, with weird mannerisms, and I'd find it hard to trust him. He must have developed some revolutionary model or just approached a hell of a lot to find girls who will fuck him. I think the whole leather jacket, boots and accessories daygame outfit is there to initially give the girl impression that he is actually cool. For me, especially in EE, it would be overcompensating.
Krauser has his own traits that he himself admits make him not very likable, but he has a bit more authenticity than Torero, although again the same general "daygame uniform" is used.
IRL I've met guys who match or beat Torero's numbers and when I get momentum to approach enough I find I am hitting the same "ceiling", so either we are world class players or there is just a pool of available girls that we caught at the right place at the right time and we didn't fuck it up. The whole elaborate diagrams I find are overkill. Especially in EE where you are scrutinized by different criteria especially how trustworthy and stable you are as a long-term prospect. The model of Torero on the other hand seems to be to get the "sluts of the day time" into bed as fast as possible. That requires aggressive game. For more normal local girls they are either in or they're out. At least Torero admits something along the lines of successes are the tiny exceptions against a backdrop of the default of failure. Glorious exceptions, but exceptions nonetheless. I think his real numbers are 1 lay per 50 approaches, so every 49 out of 50 girls that are about on the streets may as well not exist. That's borderline spamming, but often the reality of daygame. Even in Kiev the 1 in 50 number will quickly turn an abundance mentality to something very different.
I also cringe at Torero's approaches as well, even the "successful" ones. I thought girls were supposed to be more sensitive to that shit, or they're just allowing him some leeway because they are "Yes" girls... I cringe at Krauser's approaches for a different reason. He's not necessarily weird and awkward like Torero trying to be cool, rather, you can tell Krauser is inherently quite a blunt, no bullshit northern british guy, but he has to come up with all these sweet lines about comparing a girl to a certain animal etc etc which must be difficult for a guy who is inherently the exact opposite of the "playful" kind of guy who would naturally spit those lines. As shit as my day approaches sometimes look, I try and do what's best and most sustainable for me. I haven't found any different results between the two "styles", only much higher demand by doing the high energy direct. Maybe it is different for the 8s and 9s which were rare to non-existent in Poland and where I normally live.
I also heard he tried to steal Krauser's serious LTR, not really for the lay but for the validation and his daygame stats. I'm not sure if that's why they're still not friends, but it doesn't exactly set good precedent going forward as far as a serious friendship goes.
He seems to revel in his self-proclaimed "international daygame playboy" persona when he is a courageous (to his credit) spammer, who finances this lifestyle by teaching other wide-eyed newbies the same running half a kilometer after a girl type of pseudodirect spamming. Most other guys he teaches actually have jobs though so they can't make what is a relatively inefficient way to get girls anywhere near efficient. When you can make a decent living from it as well as getting some girls, even if only 2%, then you can add them together and see what you're doing as tolerably efficient at least. I met guys who only have 4-8 weeks holiday per year, so they can never get the momentum to do day game properly.
If we believe his numbers and his claims of quality, then he is lightyears ahead of most of us in daygame, but there are as others have mentioned guys on this forum getting good quality girls by whatever means necessary (p4p excluded) who by far have this nerdy, odd guy beaten.
Roosh, if we take the "day game Roosh" as fair comparison, is more indirect, flexible and you wouldn't necessarily catch him doing high energy front stops with direct compliments anywhere near all the time. What he seems to suggest mirrors my own experience, especially in EE, that slower moving to stationary targets in places like the grocery store are better to open indirectly, measuring interest and not just politeness, and proceeding from there until it hooks... or it doesn't. It's something sustainable to me and doesn't feel as fake even though I am often asking a question I know the answer to. The only exception is where a girl really looks like my type and I can give her an honest reason why I want to talk to her, it may involve a front stop but not completely direct. After you walk and jog around so much, I find high energy front stops to be too much and when I'm solo I can't bring myself to do them most of the time. A lot of the girls walking fast are high end girls who likely have sponsors or BFs paying for all their shit and don't need more validation than they already have, I don't like the way the direct model just gives it out without the girl having to do anything. I also don't think Roosh spams like Torero, I think he is probably socially intelligent to the point that he knows what a good "target" is anyway, while Torero will most likely approach anything that moves. Believe me I've seen just a few bootcamp guys approaching anything that moves and the result even in a high traffic area is not pretty. You used to get credit for day time approaches, now because of the direct day game spamming you're just another in the queue.
Finally I think both Torero and Krauser are running a sort of "I hope she likes me" day game model, rather than a simple indirect screening model. After a long time dealing with girls, you can tell whether they are at least attracted or not, whether you go direct or indirect is irrelevant. Krauser had a series called daygame "mediocrity" and I thought, fuck, if that's classed as mediocrity then my equivalent "product" would be named something like daygame "complete horse shit". There is still the high energy front stop, teasing, push pulls etc. all of which I found didn't change the result of any pickup during the day. Like this one PUA was talking about his technique and he was like "...yeah, then I went on to some breaking rapport, you know, push pull type stuff, then I did this and that etc. ..." Pretty much overkill like the Torero stuff. Who knows, maybe Torero needs it. I'm not claiming to be in his league in terms of daygame results, so maybe it's required for bitchy models who are already sponsored by arab princes or a circle of local orbiters. All I know is the healthiest and most sustainable mindset to go into set with is to see what the girl is like and to see if she is available. Maybe there's some marginal benefit of adding all this complex shit to it but for me it's been external factors affecting results infinitely more than any "hack" day game "lines" I could spit made up by professional PUAs.
Aside from game, Roosh seems pretty damn honest. Just look at their faces, the way they talk, their mannerisms. Who would you trust, Roosh or this "Torero" guy?
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