[MathGuy]

@Skank_Hunt: I don't think Krauser and Torero 'spam approach' these days. Spam approaching is for beginners who need to get over the initial stage of massive AA. It's not supposed to look pretty. It is inherently 'cringy' because they tend to be low value guys with issues doing something that is difficult for high value guys (which means that if they keep at it and do it right, they'll grow fast). Obviously they likely won't be getting laid at all while doing so, but it accomplishes the specific problem of being afraid, and it does give you numerous little 1% reference points along the way.

Yes, the London Daygame Model is very elaborate, but it's meant to be training wheels for a newbie. Advanced guys like Krauser and Torero have internalized and dropped the model. For a newbie, the advice is to learn the LDM one bite at a time (because obviously it's too much to remember in the moment). They then gain a lot of reference experience and lose AA, which makes them able to focus on actually getting laid. Then after a while, they do so many correct things by habit that they naturally drop the structure.

As weasely as Torero appears to be, the point is that the advice he gives has been legit according to my experience. I recall that the first time I did a front stop, it ended in the girl giving the boyfriend rejection but complimenting me on my boldness. The second time I did it a few minutes later, I got my first daygame date. This is in contrast to other times where I approached too meekly and got blown off (because it's the street, I was conditioned by indirect openers in indoor locations). Also, when I moved from asking interview mode questions to doing assumption stacks, it had a noticeable effect of making the interaction more emotionally charged and the girl being more 'into' the interaction.

I used to "close" girls by simply asking for their number, which led to a hell of a lot of flakes. Recently I started applying the LDM advice to let her invest and qualify towards the end, coupled with closing under the clear pretenses of getting her out on a date, I got way less flakes.

To address another point you made -- yes, daygame can be viewed as an inefficient grind with a certain point of view. I take another point of view that because you're getting laid through cold approaching random strangers on the street, that even a 1-in-50 ratio is something to be respected (our perspectives are skewed by the fact that we're in the PUA community, where 20 lays is considered low even though it's three times the lifetime average, and the majority of men aren't even going to reach the lifetime average). At the same time, daygame is also very enjoyable for it's own sake. You're outside, appreciating the wonders of the city, having pleasant interactions with attractive women (that prior to this were just people you could only admire from afar, thinking "I know I never could get a girl like that" or "I hope she matches with me on Tinder" or "I hope I can meet a girl like that through work/school/friends/luck"). Even though you "fail" with many of these girls, it's still an enriching experience that I know I'll be doing for the rest of my life.

[Skank_Hunt]

I think volumes going into the 1000s are going to be spammy no matter who does it unless you spread it out over many years. Obviously it also makes a huge difference in terms of how it looks and your results where you're approaching e.g. the west versus Ukraine versus, say, Peru.

Who is to say that some other "model" or whatever you want to call it is not more effective than what Torero has made up? This more an art than a science, if there is any objective science to it we don't know if the science is good and as for the art part then there are many different ways of doing things depending on a huge variety of factors.

Similarly I have had girls that I have approached indirectly as opposed to directly, to the point where to nearby observers it was like we were having a normal conversation and could have easily known each other beforehand. Later on a date she complimented my approach and said she had a default no to guys usually because they were too "direct". Roosh said something about being able to get girls who would have run away from direct with indirect, but not the other way round. This being an art, I can't say we know for sure if that's entirely true or not, but don't you feel this "energy" when you enter a girl's world, even indirectly, whether she wants you to stay around or is just being polite but is not open to anything further or is not even bothering to be polite at all (those usually easier to guess).

Sometimes high volume approaches for newbies doesn't always work. Or it "works" because the guy is on a bootcamp, or post bootcamp high. For a lot of guys, especially solo daygame, it's very emotionally exhausting and sometimes not the best option. One form of therapy is pure exposure, but there are known pitfalls of exposure therapy, one of which is making the original fear worse. (Or as in the case of daygame, ruining entire cities for yourself and others, so that even if you get "good" at daygame, you (and probably your friends) made it much harder for yourself.)

Sometimes even the smoothest, most inconspicuous indirect daygame is fucking cringeworthy because it's not normal, it's super random. It can feel weird and random for both you and the girl.

I find there is just too much shit to remember at once and I try to be more natural and I admit maybe I got some closes from natural things accidentally done which could be construed as being within the "model" but for me it's been part of conversation with an interested girl that I like for as long as I can remember. It also helps break up the monotony. If you're at a 1/50, doing the exact same thing 50 times is soul draining to say the least.

Though I agree with 1/50 being a more than respectable ratio, this being cold selling your dick off the street, definitely. I just think the 49/50 failure rate is a hell of a tough way to "earn a living". At this rate, it's easy to see why so many daygamers get into LTRs with the first decent girl they meet, because it's so hard to convert approaches and have them be quality girls as well. To keep doing this for 1000s of approaches at a 2% conversion rate being a travelling player with no solid LTR, it's a very cold and lonely path at times.

I don't know, maybe we're different, but AA for me and even for experienced players never really goes away. And there are the days where you feel like you've never even done daygame before, whether your past successes were just the experiences of some other guy transplanted into your memory.

About going for the date rather than the number, that advice again I heard from before the London guys were doing it, and it works. About qualification, that was written by Mystery a long long time ago. Even in natural conversation though, I genuinely want to find out stuff about a girl so I ask her "qualifying" questions but they are often honestly to find out what type of girl she is, so I can assess the likely quality of her personality, sometimes how solid the lead might be, how best to go forward and other stuff. Also there's just finding out the logistics, common sense I would have thought. Heck I don't know about you, I screen even before I approach, not just is she attractive, but is she the type of girl I want etc.

Anyway the original question was Torero to Roosh, there's no comparison in my opinion as far as respect for someone's character and moral fiber is concerned. Game wise, they seem to differ in volume and manner of approach, yet both seem to get results. I think maybe Torero would win in a "1 month day game free for all" by sheer volume and determination to prove his methods to be superior, while Roosh would likely be more chill. I could be wrong but just my guess.

Quote:

You're outside, appreciating the wonders of the city, having pleasant interactions with attractive women (that prior to this were just people you could only admire from afar, thinking "I know I never could get a girl like that" or "I hope she matches with me on Tinder" or "I hope I can meet a girl like that through work/school/friends/luck"). Even though you "fail" with many of these girls, it's still an enriching experience that I know I'll be doing for the rest of my life.

I am still in what Krauser calls "Dentist chair daygame" phase. On one hand I enjoy the good interactions, on the other hand I have strong AA that I have to push through with nothing but brute force, even during the good interactions it's like taming a wild bull psychologically while I also fully engage the girl. Maybe one day we will meet and I can tap into some of that positive energy you have. One thing I can grudgingly respect from Torero is the ability to do it solo for so many sets. For me it's just a grind. There are positive moments, occasionally beautiful moments when I look at it objectively, but AA definitely "stains" the beauty of the experience for me. That and, it was good to have a good friend as a wing before they got married, went MGTOW, or before I ventured east etc.

[ksbms]

This quite pointless.

You can't do a quantitative analysis on this, too many parameters. If you wanted to have a controlled study, you'd have both Roosh and Tom approach the same girl, at the same time, and in the same environment but it still would be far from perfect. The girl is an active agent and has preferences. It's not like comparing two athletes where the outcome is quite obvious - say, a javelin throw competition - the same competition space, the same object used of nearly identical size and weight and clear comparative measurement - the distance the javelin travelled to call the winner.

In Daygame, what I think matters most is the gamesman's output, predominantly video records, a good number of approaches, preferably with immediate idates, dates, bouncebacks, lays (though, ideally, you could game shoulder to shoulder for a week or more).

Written infields I take with a pinch of salt and so should you. Anyone can present themselves the way they wish on the internet.

My answer is this - neither Roosh nor Tom have in a public domain an extensive number of recorded approaches. That's all that matters (to me). Neither has anything comparative to, say, Krauser's output in general and his Daygame Overkill with extensive commentary of all the approaches recorded with high quality camera and microphone, in particular. So you guys can argue ad infinitum and I in the meantime will order Krauser's latest and probably most advanced daygame book that he has just launched - Daygame Infinity.

[MathGuy]

@ksbms: I've heard of Daygame Overkill but have never seen it. I've seen Stealth Seduction which is TT's counterpart and it's pretty good. Have you seen it? You're right about Roosh, but Torero has a great deal of infield available for free on his YouTube channel.

When I compare Daygame Mastery to Street Hustle, Krauser's work is an order of magnitude better. I think Torero's advantage is that he has more free videos on YouTube and markets himself more.

[Skank_Hunt]

When you hear of a near 500 page tome called "Daygame Mastery", you would assume that will be the last one. The most elaborate, complex book written on game outside social circle or bars/clubs. But no, soon there will be "Daygame Infinite". What could that book possibly contain that "Daygame Mastery" didn't? If DM fries your brain, damn, can you imagine a wide-eyed newbie reading this new one? Sometimes it's just better to get out and do it. Past a certain point it can hurt you.

[XXL]

I would not buy anything from PUAs.

1. It's easy to make up fake videos so tou never know which one is real or not.

2. Social interaction is not an algorithm. This is how they try to portray it. Telling every girl she looks like she's from X is not the one and only path to success really. They cone up with something minor or weird promote it and try to highlight to the max. They end up overdoing it. Torrero stands in front if a girl like he's about to strangle her. Roosh has energy like he's barely alive. Yad stop is one the weirdest shit I've ever seen and while I know when I could be great they made it their default "thing" for almost every approach. This is robotic and mindless method. Zero common sense.

3. Cold approach is random. This is the most important point. All of them try to extract some statistics from something so random. It seems like they assume every girl they speak to is available and ready to be taken and they try to sell you bullshit about various ratios, time to call first or reponse to messages, etc. It's just nonsense it cannot be measured like that sorry. Common sense really.

Instead..

Watch what's online on youtube but take it with grain of salt. Notice where they overdo it and where they are weird and normal. Watch it critically. Notice that most videos present approaches and first interaction only. That's cute but what about the second meeting? Did that awesome first impression lead somewhere? Who knows.

I'm saying that those videos are very limited almost like a small preview of what is waiting for you if you play the game. On top of that women they approach are random people out and about who find it easier to quickly dismiss a random guy even when they would want to meet him, just wrong timing. So you cannot take their reactions as 100% correct feedback whether you do something well or not

[MathGuy]

@Skank_Hunt: Daygame Mastery has a shit ton of content, but you're supposed to learn it one bite at a time. It has everything Krauser thought you needed to know as of 2013. It also isn't for beginners.

@XXL: 1. While you can never know what infield is real and what isn't, you can test things out infield. Based on my experience with countless daygame approaches, applying Torero's advice has improved things massively.

2. That's not how the LDM works. You're not supposed to robotically do the Yad Stop with every girl. You're not supposed to tell every girl she looks like she's from X. Torero stands in front of the girl in a squared-up fashion because it gives off a strong, confident, masculine presence. I've noticed that when my presence is weaker, I'm far less successful.

Now, I suppose beginners with poor social skills can distort things to the point where they apply things robotically. I've seen that happen with a few wings here in NYC myself. However, I wouldn't use that as an indictment of the LDM. Every piece of advice can be applied the wrong way.

3. Sure, there's a lot of randomness, but there are still discernible patterns. If you notice that one kind of action usually leads to this specific result, and this other action leads to another, you can extrapolate enough info to come up with the kind of model that you find in the LDM. See my previous point regarding standing in front of the girl.

[zoom]

I bought Krauser's video series and I would recommend it. He breaks every approach down and he really understands female psychology.

I wouldn't buy anything from Tom Terero after he faked an infield video.

[The Catalyst]

(12-13-2017 02:08 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  

When you hear of a near 500 page tome called "Daygame Mastery", you would assume that will be the last one. The most elaborate, complex book written on game outside social circle or bars/clubs. But no, soon there will be "Daygame Infinite". What could that book possibly contain that "Daygame Mastery" didn't? If DM fries your brain, damn, can you imagine a wide-eyed newbie reading this new one? Sometimes it's just better to get out and do it. Past a certain point it can hurt you.

(12-13-2017 09:45 AM)MathGuy Wrote:  

@Skank_Hunt: Daygame Mastery has a shit ton of content, but you're supposed to learn it one bite at a time. It has everything Krauser thought you needed to know as of 2013. It also isn't for beginners.

I've got to say that K's Daygame Mastery has a lot of good information. I've read it a while back and it was mildly mindblowing at the time, now I reread it recently and it's amazing how much I internalised and how "natural" the techniques seem and how "obvious" the model/framework/techniques are in hindsight.

In a vacuum I cannot imagine him being able to top Mastery with Infinite- if it was almost anyone else other than Krauser I would dismiss it out of hand, however he has produced so much legit stuff and I trust his integrity enough that because he said it's much better I'm going to reserve judgment.

[MathGuy]

@The Catalyst: Infinite is supposed to consist of new content right? I'm not sure how he can fill up a tome with entirely new content, so there must be some old stuff thrown in.

[Noir]

Apples and oranges.

Who would you rather be?

When I was 16 and learning game, I used to go to coffee shops to meet guys with fedoras to discuss game back then.

It's funny to look back on but one of them said, just pick the 'PUA' you want to be, not the one you think is the 'coolest'.

There are plenty of ways to skin a cat, but to get laid you must be congruent. To be likable you must be congruent.

Anything else is fake.

Who is more real, who would you want to be more, who suits your personality best.

This applies to every single 'idol' or person you are modelling yourself after if you want to come across naturally in whatever domain it is.

You can implement aspects of any other personality in your persona and chisel it in to your own but this is why the whole PUA scene went through a copy cat complex 8-10 years ago.

[cosworth]

Slight thread drift , but for these full time pick up gurus like Tom T and Krasuer , surely they have a limited shelf life in terms of earnings. Are they still going to be running around London at 50 yrs of age trying to hook up with that hot 21yr old Swedish student walking down Oxford Street.
At least Roosh has diversified into a number of other areas.

[griffinmill]

I think Krauser is one of the best out there - okay, look: I know he's a bit of an asshole and he was banned from this forum, and I agree with his ban, don't get me wrong, but his website is cerebral, full of wisdom, and it's a joy to read. I think he's a fairly honest guy and there's no bullshit with him (please don't ban me). All the issues people have with him I completely understand.

Torero can't be trusted. Sure, I like his infields and his style matches my own (low energy) but pulling that scam with the actress speaks to his integrity and character. He cannot - and should not - be trusted, and it's the reason I'll never pay him one red cent, no matter how much I enjoy his YouTube content.

[Skank_Hunt]

As for the real comparison, totally agree with posters above:

-pointless
-apples and oranges, etc.

I just like to talk about day game.

Even if Torero could get more girls in the day at this point, it doesn't matter. Apart from so many different variables in action at the same time rendering direct comparison impossible, who cares?

There's a reason I post on RV Forum, why I bought RV membership, why I read Roosh's content etc. We're probably too different to be best friends but I like the guy. I also trust him quite a lot if you consider I have only his online content from which to make my judgment. First, because his content just makes intuitive sense. Second, because his content is accurate. He doesn't boast or bullshit and makes very astute observations about other countries, whether in terms of game, or general cultural issues etc.

[PapayaTapper]

(12-08-2017 07:53 PM)TripleG Wrote:  

@Linux, you gotta give Tom Torero credit though, he is a smooth talker and is neither tall, dark, or handsome unlike so many of the other PUA guru's on YouTube. While he seems to be a natural extrovert I must say though that we can all learn a bit from his rambling style and ability to make girls interested in some of the most nonsensical topics, for example this video of him complementing the girl on her walk and talking about weather.

I myself am too shy to run after girls in the middle of the street like this guy but I would damn sure be happy if I could ever get to his level.

So what's the lesson of this video?...chunky chicks are amenable to being approached on the street?....oh...ok

[pancakemouse]

(12-14-2017 05:55 PM)cosworth Wrote:  

Slight thread drift , but for these full time pick up gurus like Tom T and Krasuer , surely they have a limited shelf life in terms of earnings. Are they still going to be running around London at 50 yrs of age trying to hook up with that hot 21yr old Swedish student walking down Oxford Street.
At least Roosh has diversified into a number of other areas.

Both Tom and Krauser have written about this on their blogs:
https://tomtorero.com/2016/08/03/retiring-from-game/

(12-15-2017 05:18 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

(12-08-2017 07:53 PM)TripleG Wrote:  

@Linux, you gotta give Tom Torero credit though, he is a smooth talker and is neither tall, dark, or handsome unlike so many of the other PUA guru's on YouTube. While he seems to be a natural extrovert I must say though that we can all learn a bit from his rambling style and ability to make girls interested in some of the most nonsensical topics, for example this video of him complementing the girl on her walk and talking about weather.

I myself am too shy to run after girls in the middle of the street like this guy but I would damn sure be happy if I could ever get to his level.

So what's the lesson of this video?...chunky chicks are amenable to being approached on the street?....oh...ok

The girl isn't the hottest but consider that Torero is 40+ and downright ugly. It's not like he's going to pull models.

[Mess O.]

(12-14-2017 06:15 PM)griffinmill Wrote:  

I think Krauser is one of the best out there - okay, look: I know he's a bit of an asshole and he was banned from this forum, and I agree with his ban, don't get me wrong, but his website is cerebral, full of wisdom, and it's a joy to read. I think he's a fairly honest guy and there's no bullshit with him (please don't ban me). All the issues people have with him I completely understand.

Torero can't be trusted. Sure, I like his infields and his style matches my own (low energy) but pulling that scam with the actress speaks to his integrity and character. He cannot - and should not - be trusted, and it's the reason I'll never pay him one red cent, no matter how much I enjoy his YouTube content.

Definitely agree. And, really, comparing Roosh to Torero strikes me as not only impractical, but an affront to the former.

[HankMoody]

I think I am going to start telling women my formal occupation is "Pickup Artist." (I got my license in Buenos Aries, or Punta Cana).

Not sure where it will go, but I'm sure it will be fun.

[Treatmentgroup]

(12-10-2017 11:16 PM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  

Aside from game, Roosh seems pretty damn honest. Just look at their faces, the way they talk, their mannerisms. Who would you trust, Roosh or this "Torero" guy?

Roosh.

[realRichardJohnson]

Stay away from these "INFIELD SAME DAY LAY SIGN UP FOR MY COURSE TO LEARN HOW TO BANG RUSSIAN SUPERMODELS YOU MEET ON THE STREET IN 5 MINUTES FLAT WITH THIS SHORT TRICK" retards.

There was this one particular chode on youtube (not gonna advertise his BS) who's schtick was to hire craigslist models and kiss them within 30 seconds of opening her.

Dude got exposed, but not before a ton of people bought into his shit.

Richard "Dick" Johnson

[dknightbro]

Learning game fundamentally comes down to your lifestyle & game goals.

Every player has a different lifestyle & game goals.

Your lifestyle will dramatically affect the type of game you pursue. Subsequently, your game goals will then affect the type of game you pursue as well.

My lifestyle simply consumes a lot of time beyond gaming. I game in my off-times and because of this, I have gradually graduated away from DG to NG & online.

DG inherently involves a lot of time investment vs. NG/online. I have a whole theory on this, but moving on.

For me, when I consider a player's skills it is based on a multitude of variables rather than a straight stats count. For my game goals, notch count counts very little when the quality is questionable. Also, the amount of time/resources a player invests to get a girl (quality or not) is a consideration for me & I would not be willing to invest that much beyond a certain point.

This is why I avoid discussing player skill levels too much (unless it's a trusted wing) as egos clash too easily.

[MMM]

Won't be long before the "Yad stop" becomes a prosecutable offense. It's a micro aggressive aura rape or a defacto kidnapping.

[Skank_Hunt]

I wear the best quality, coolest sneakers around with a lot of air in the sole so that when I walk or run I "bounce". I tried to wear converse and worse leather boots and my feet felt like they were stuck to the ground. With my favorite sneakers I have a spring in my step (literally).

Yet still 95% of the time I don't do a full front stop. Maybe I will be forced to further east where my standing or moving or sitting retard waving just doesn't work. I do have an inkling that the top Russian model "greyhounds" walking fast will require a pretty fast and abrupt stop in front of them. I just hate the requirement for direct compliment. I want to start talking to the girl sure but there's no way to not come across as pedestalizing the girl to some extent, even if you try and "pull back" a bit with a tease or (gulp) a neg or you honestly try to tell her that you approached her because she was walking like X animal and you were curious to see what kind of personality she has.

Back to the original topic Krauser mentioned in his memoir somewhere that he observed Roosh doing daygame, I think wearing sneakers (no leather boots - the end of the world is nigh!) and generally average, unremarkable clothing compared to Krauser's "extreme super alpha" avatar complete with skull rings, bracelets, and the legendary leather jacket. Krauser described a sense of Roosh being competent at daygame but underwhelming compared to the influence he had on men around the world. This is because Krauser relatively speaking does day game like a maniac and pretty much only day game, and Roosh prefers night game. He also made a remark about Roosh filtering for "Yes" girls. Well what the hell else are you supposed to do? What does Krauser filter for? No offence to the guy but he too is turning over many stones to see if there is a speck of gold underneath.

There's also no need to dress like a Krauser clone as I have observed in Poland. One time I dressed like a Gopnik and got the same % warm reactions and I felt more alpha dressed as a Gopnik as I feel most comfortable in sports clothing. Then again my sports wardrobe is infinitely better than that of the average Gopnik, so I was probably a high class Gopnik. The usual Gopniks can't deviate from their 1-3 tracksuit and sneaker combos, I have so many, some of them luxurious. But I don't own Yeezy's, they just look like shit and cost a shit ton for what you get. I held them and tried to analyze what they are made of and why they cost so much but couldn't justify it other than the name. Anyway I digress. Good air cushioned sneakers can be very useful when you have to walk and run a lot. So I am team Roosh on the clothing front as well.

[Teedub]

(12-10-2017 11:16 PM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  

I cringe at Krauser's approaches for a different reason. He's not necessarily weird and awkward like Torero trying to be cool, rather, you can tell Krauser is inherently quite a blunt, no bullshit northern british guy, but he has to come up with all these sweet lines about comparing a girl to a certain animal etc.

I also heard he tried to steal Krauser's serious LTR, not really for the lay but for the validation and his daygame stats. I'm not sure if that's why they're still not friends, but it doesn't exactly set good precedent going forward as far as a serious friendship goes.

Haha you talk about Krauser like he's a Geordie Tommy Robinson...guy's a former investment banker, but I do see your point. I also agree with something I've snipped that you made about the leather jacket / metal jewellery 'uniform' - I think it's been done to death, even though it does look good.

I didn't know Torero did that, that's fucked up considering they were/are (?) friends. Reading Bodi's second book, as you have, I get the sense all these PUAs are constantly in competition with one another, quite aggressively so, so I doubt genuine friendships are possible in that scenario. As an aside, Bodi is hands down the best writer (possibly alongside Delicious Tacos) to come out of the manosphere...a genuinely gifted wordsmith. And bloody funny.

(12-11-2017 05:54 AM)MathGuy Wrote:  

Yes, the London Daygame Model is very elaborate...

I'm not sure it really is, like a lot of game it over-intellectualises a lot of normal behaviour to make it sound more scientific. 'Vibing' is just another way of saying "flirting" for example. Ultimately the main advantage of daygame is having the balls to approach in the day, something 99% of guys aren't doing...past that I'm of the opinion a lot of the theory is mainly marketing. Of course, the stack phase is really important, but there's certain things you just can't teach. Look at someone like Russel Brand, I've never seen someone dominate a conversation and hold his frame like him, what he has cannot be taught (or bought, in the form of a $99 ebook).

(12-13-2017 02:08 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  

When you hear of a near 500 page tome called "Daygame Mastery", you would assume that will be the last one. The most elaborate, complex book written on game outside social circle or bars/clubs. But no, soon there will be "Daygame Infinite". What could that book possibly contain that "Daygame Mastery" didn't? If DM fries your brain, damn, can you imagine a wide-eyed newbie reading this new one? Sometimes it's just better to get out and do it. Past a certain point it can hurt you.

I agree, I'd be interested to know what's in Infinite that wasn't in Mastery...at this point you've got to presume a lot of it is marketing. The best thing to do is read a little bit of theory in the beginning then just go out and do it and see what works/suits you. I reckon if someone has Mastery and Overkill...that's all someone needs. They just need to get out there with a few stock openers/assumptions and go from there.

[Cobra]

There's something about improving men's lives beyond Pick Up artistry.

To those who are even getting an itch to pay a PUA: PUAs are trying to line their pockets selling dreams to you guys and the promise of lays by training you on a single component of game: approaching.

The reason I appreciate this forum and what Roosh has encouraged is the promise of masculinity beyond this. If you really wanted to, you could start contributing to the forum, meeting other members, lift, get fashion advice and have a few members teach you how to approach women.

However, if you are lazy and want to lose money, be my guest.