[Doogie]

I've posted earlier (once) but have some questions. Can you be blue pill in a relationship but red pill in life?

Long story short - I don't take any shit at work. I'm know for it both by management and co-workers. I'm a leader at work and people come to me to solve issues - I was the union rep for years.

I am in the middle of a divorce after 15 years with 2 kids. My wife treated me like shit - made me sleep in different rooms for years and acted like it was a big sacrifice to have sex with me. I after a year of hinting slept with someone else. I really just wanted her to care about me but frankly she never did even the day we got married. My mom likes to point this out - even asking me the day I married her if I was sure this was a good idea. Frankly she was hot and I wasn't thinking at 100%. I was pussy whipped.

In my relationships however I find myself caring and being a pussy. I posted about this one girl before that clearly digs me (she is lower SMV than me but is 10 years younger a tiny bit chunky - I'm 44 she's 34).

I'm sort of seeing this girl that is 43 and a 7 or 8 (I'm more like a 5 or 6 to be honest. Bit of the dad beer belly). She is thin and always has been from the pictures I have seen. No stretch marks after 1 kid.

We both have pretty busy lives so we get together when we can. She let me meet her 15 year old kid a few weeks ago. She was a bit flaky on returning texts and dates but she does work 13 /14 days so I went with it and I had a side piece. Having said that she raised a boy that frankly is the best boy I could expect from a single mom. She made him get a job, makes him play AA baseball and more or less has his shit together for his age. Not where I expect my kids to be at his age by any means.

She had a birthday a couple weeks ago and ditched her birthday family plans to hang with me - I do understand what that means. On Canada's thanksgiving she invited me over to her house and I met her parents. After everyone left we hanged out for a few hours. Got everything off except panties. Finger banged her - she enjoyed it and texted me first the next morning. Still haven't slept with her. I have logistic issues with pending divorce so this was at her house with her son upstairs.

I guess the question is why do I care? Why do I want to be the nice guy no matter what? I've read these forums a lot and understand but I don't at the same time if you get my drift.

This woman said something to me - that sort of made it click a bit. I am beta in a lot of ways but do more alpha stuff as well. It confused her. I wasn't scared to take her clothes off and if she had let me I would have fucked her without issue but I still want to be a "nice guy". Why?

I'm 6 beer in so take this with a grain of salt.

[not_dead_yet]

I think we've got a lot in common, so I'll do my best to field your question, although it's a really vague question.

One answer to "Why do I want to be the nice guy no matter what?" is that is you were probably raised to be a nice kid and to hew closely to various blue pill beliefs that worked in 1970s Canada and are now hopelessly out of date. So you can consider that your default mode.

You can change yourself, believe me, but it's a lot of work. You'll find yourself consciously monitoring your behavior, doing things by conscious choice because you think you're supposed to do them, even though you've yet to receive any validating feedback that your changes matter.

A second answer to "Why do I want to be the nice guy no matter what?" is that you probably consider your "nice" self to be more synonymous with your "loving" self, and after a horrible first marriage you really want a woman that gives you the love you were deprived of for fifteen years. (Did you and your mistress love each other?) So instead of doing all this red pill stuff, you just want to stand in front of a woman as you are right now and have her love and unconditional acceptance.

A third answer to "Why do I want to be the nice guy no matter what?," and is really the flip side of the second answer, is that you fear rejection and/or failure. I'm an idiot with shitty game and even I'm laughing at you for finger-banging a forty-something single mom AFTER meeting her parents. JFC, dude, fuck her already. These women want sexual relationships. I swear to God they do. Take one of the girls in your rotation and try to seal the deal and see what happens. You'll never know what you can do until you try.

I'll try to remember to keep an eye on this thread. The subscription feature doesn't work for me. Don't be surprised if it takes me a few days to get back to you.

[RatInTheWoods]

A mistake is thinking that you have to sacrifice your values to get pussy.

Even if that works, is that trade off worth it?

You can hold to your values and still take the red pill ideas that will give you greater success.

Its not all about being an asshole, you just need to be confident, feel abundance, not be needy etc.

PUA and LTR skills are very very different. I think some nice guy is required to succeed in LTRs, so PUAs that sell their soul can get pussy alright, but never enjoy the fruits of longer more satisfying interactions with women.

So study the skills, be stay true to your values.

[The Stronger Sex]

What's the worst she could have thought If you tried to fuck her? "Oh my God, he's a sexual man"?

[Doogie]

Thanks for the reply's.

The meeting the parents was strange I thought. It sort of happened with a "what are you up to this weekend?" question from her - when it was obvious I had no Thanksgiving plans she invited me to her place for it. I think the reason I didn't sleep with her is I obviously didn't get her comfortable enough which is on me. On reflection I have a better idea what I need to do to seal that deal. Hopefully this weekend.

I'm more concerned with the beta traits I'm having - I recognize most of them and stop myself but it's certainly not my default behavior when it comes to women. It seems like it's more a trained response I think. I'm not scared to make a move or even feel uncomfortable making one but something is partially holding me back. Must be subconscious fear.

[The Beast1]

Look mate, you should be nice to the woman you love and have decided to marry.

This idea that you need to be an alpha male game machine 24/7 isn't really reality. If you need that to keep a woman around, you chose poorly!

It sounds like your marriage is already dead. Here's what I propose you try:

The next time your wife or new muse says something off key, walk up and slap her ass. She'll be stunned and say, "wtf?" Reply back, "that's for the sassy mouth" smirk and walk away.

In the hierarchy of the household, view adult women as the biggest kids and act accordingly. When she acts up, don't use her name, call her "woman" . Like "woman you always mess up x". But be playful about it. Have fun.

An insecure woman is a happy one. When you around, playfully grab and poke at the parts your woman's body she is insecure about. She'll ask to stop which is an invitation to do more.

Sometimes women really just want a reaction, so give them one! When they're shouting about some problem, agree and amplify. Shout back in complete agreement, get angry, and while you're red in the face: provide the solution. They'll feel validated for their emotions and you get to provide the solution you would have given anyway.

Remember, you need to " play" with your women. Like little boys do to torment little girls. Puberty adds in a sexual element which confuses most, but there's no need to be afraid of it.

Continue being "beta" to everyone in public. There's nothing wrong with being a good guy. With the advice i've provided you can be a beta with some bark which is really what most bitches want anyway.

Edit: the reason you wanted to be a nice guy when you could have f*cked her was because you felt guilty and thought of your first wife. You know deep down you want to save it and a part of you held back.

[Jetset]

(10-14-2017 10:08 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Look mate, you should be nice to the woman you love and have decided to marry.

The key here is that a lot of people have very poor calibration for what "nice" is.

Being "nice" doesn't mean "loaning" some random bitch on the street $15 because she's hinting around about a problem that costs $15 to solve, like a fellow in a recent thread. There are "nice" ways to say no. There are "nice" ways to stay out of matters that aren't really your problem.

You might think you're being nice when you reward a woman with attention and validation and respect when she isn't giving you what you want, but imagine if it was an employer-employee relationship and you were happily paying the employee for work that they weren't doing. That isn't "nice", it's dumb. Are you being mean if you don't hold the door for a burglar?

Fuck her. Women want to get fucked. You aren't doing her some huge respectful favor that she'll remember forever by not stuffing her with hard dick. It's just another night where she didn't get laid.

[questor70]

The closest thing to a meritocracy is the workplace.

I can say that in my profession (programming) I have gotten where I am largely by being personable. I do not have a comp-sci degree but my soft-skills have compensated. On the flipside, I have also seen the sort of damage that can be done by those who are just looking out for themselves. For some professions (like stockbroker or salesman) maybe dark-triad traits are helpful but not where tight collaboration is necessary.

What the "red pill" means to me is that women do not grant pussy as a reward for personal virtue. A woman's sexual attraction is amoral, which is sad, but true.

https://youtu.be/jCXHh_eREt4?t=12s

I think a lot of women know this about themselves, and while they hate it, they can't change it anymore than we can.

[The Beast1]

(10-14-2017 11:41 AM)Jetset Wrote:  

(10-14-2017 10:08 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Look mate, you should be nice to the woman you love and have decided to marry.

The key here is that a lot of people have very poor calibration for what "nice" is.

Being "nice" doesn't mean "loaning" some random bitch on the street $15 because she's hinting around about a problem that costs $15 to solve, like a fellow in a recent thread. There are "nice" ways to say no. There are "nice" ways to stay out of matters that aren't really your problem.

You might think you're being nice when you reward a woman with attention and validation and respect when she isn't giving you what you want, but imagine if it was an employer-employee relationship and you were happily paying the employee for work that they weren't doing. That isn't "nice", it's dumb. Are you being mean if you don't hold the door for a burglar?

Fuck her. Women want to get fucked. You aren't doing her some huge respectful favor that she'll remember forever by not stuffing her with hard dick. It's just another night where she didn't get laid.

Where was any of this relevant in the OP's post? He isn't a push over in his life by any stretch of the imagination as evidence by his story.

I don't know about you guys, but it's generally a good thing to hold the concerns of someone you care about and well be " nice" to them and not complete strangers.

His hesitation from banging the 40 y/o milf is an emotional hangup from an on going divorce. I don't know about you, but i'd be a mess if I was going through a divorce to the point of having a hang up about it. It seems silly from our perspective, but this guy's going through some tough shit.

My mind would be so far away from getting laid in the middle of a divorce, old habits would certainly mess with me too.

[Jetset]

(10-14-2017 02:06 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Where was any of this relevant in the OP's post? He isn't a push over in his life by any stretch of the imagination as evidence by his story.

I don't know about you guys, but it's generally a good thing to hold the concerns of someone you care about and well be " nice" to them and not complete strangers.

His hesitation from banging the 40 y/o milf is an emotional hangup from an on going divorce. I don't know about you, but i'd be a mess if I was going through a divorce to the point of having a hang up about it. It seems silly from our perspective, but this guy's going through some tough shit.

My mind would be so far away from getting laid in the middle of a divorce, old habits would certainly mess with me too.

All I meant was that when somebody says you're supposed to be nice or questions why they want to be nice, it pays to stop and ask what "nice" means. I agree with all your suggestions, I just got the impression your post was hinting at a false choice between having game and being good to her.

I wasn't totally clear on where OP wants to take his question, but my read was that he isn't sure why he feels guilty about taking some eager broad to Pound Town. Yes, I'm sure it has something to do with his divorce, but the fact that he frames it as "being a nice guy" who "cares" raises as many questions as it answers.

Nice to who? To an ex who treated him like shit for a decade and a half? To the horny woman spread-eagled on the couch right in front of him?

Care about what? Crushing the eggshells his ex made him walk on? Offending the sensibilities of a grown woman who's been around the block?

Maybe I'm wrong, but what I hear is the toxic messaging that sex is some kind of thankless and unwanted burden men impose on women, browbeaten into OP by his ex. "Aw geez, how can I do that to her if I actually care about her!" That's the blue pill bullshit talking that turns normal, healthy sex into payment for services rendered. In this case, the red pill reality is that laying pipe like the code inspector is on the way is the nice, caring thing to do. It doesn't mean you've formed an eternal bond of chivalrous duty which you will inevitably betray, she just wants to get laid.

[Doogie]

I've read the replies multiple times. They have all made me think. Thank you for that.

To clarify - this woman was resistant to me getting her underwear off (I know that is my fault because I didn't make her comfortable enough) but she didn't seem ready to sleep with me that night. I knew I could have pushed it a bit and she would have but I didn't. It's not that I didn't want too - I just wouldn't plow through that resistance.

I told some of my coworkers that in my personal life I tend to not like conflict and am a lot more easy going. I get enough conflict at work. They honest didn't believe me and thought I was bullshitting them as they have never seem that side of me. I need to find a way to take my work personality into my home personality - a happy medium.

Looking back I knew my wife didn't have respect for me but once you loose respect it's almost impossible to get it back (which is on me in the first place).

[blck]

Being nice though as being agreeable is fucking you up.
I know you're alpha and you solves problems but where does that led you until now ? Nowhere because that's not alpha either... You can't change overnight but you can force yourself "to seem" to care less and be more of an asshole like being mean but for your own fun.

The_PUA_punany Wrote:

The key difference is, women will respect you less for any concession you make to them.

If you stop seeing other girls because of her, she will be pleased, but that's because she has gained power over you. Whether she views you as a better person makes no difference because she will not view that as a reason to give you more pussy. There are lots of "good" people she isn't fucking.

The fewer women available to you, the more power any single one has. If you stop exercising your ability to attract new women, it will atrophy, and you will be less and less attractive to whoever is left.

There are only two possibilities for systems involving women: Constant motion, or stagnation.

Keep a plate spinning, because if it stops, it will fall and break.

Every woman's utility takes a nosedive toward zero as she ages anyway.

[gework]

One train for thought is what was the dynamic of your parents' relationship? You mention this woman has her son together. With single mum's I've notice that if the woman takes a more masculine role and makes sacrifices the son will turn out OK, but if the mother is feminine they often become dysfunctional. This woman also seems to be taking a bit of initiative with your dates. I.e. she seems more masculine.

Also, your mother asked you if getting married to this woman who pussywhipped you (you, feminine) is a good idea. If you had a dad, did he say anything? You mention your mother giving you what would have been very good advice, but you've not mentioned the dad.

Its not much to go on, but maybe the relationship roles you learned from your parents are that the woman is in control and the man is subservient. Or maybe you had little input from your father and thus just let the woman control everything.

Either of these are crippling as it limits you a lot to women who make the moves, which are fewer and lower quality, I.e. single mother's who made their own mistakes, who might see picking up a fat, divorcing, 5 with kids, seemingly with a good job as a good play.

[Doogie]

Well my dad (died when I was in my mid 20's ) was a man's man which is most likely why he left my mom when I was young. I grew up in a small very redneck town. He didn't take shit from anyone (which is most likely where I learned that as well) but of course in the 70's and 80's kids stayed with their mom's. I'm sure that has colored my view a lot on how to act with women.

This woman I am hanging out with seems more feminine than my ex. She has long hair, ex liked it shorter and wouldn't grow it out for me. This woman lets me make the moves first but more in a coy way as opposed to my ex would let me make the first move because she never would otherwise.

It's worse than this one women however - I have this other girl in my rotation that I slept with once. Could have slept with her more but it was clear to me she wanted a relationship - I told her I couldn't give her that. We hang out from time to time and the sexual tension is there but I won't close the deal again because I'm worried she might getting feelings for me. Hence part of the - why do I want to be a nice guy?

[Doogie]

Just to add - while blunt with the responses it really does boil it down to the basics and makes it easy to understand. Thank you

[not_dead_yet]

(10-14-2017 02:55 PM)Doogie Wrote:  

Looking back I knew my wife didn't have respect for me but once you loose respect it's almost impossible to get it back (which is on me in the first place).

For those of you imagining what it's like to go through a divorce, re-read this line over and over until you can close your eyes and see it written on the inside of your eyelids.

And don't get married without a pre-nup, and preferably don't get married at all. Remember -- marriage is patriarchy, ftw.

[not_dead_yet]

(10-16-2017 03:27 PM)Doogie Wrote:  

It's worse than this one women however - I have this other girl in my rotation that I slept with once. Could have slept with her more but it was clear to me she wanted a relationship - I told her I couldn't give her that. We hang out from time to time and the sexual tension is there but I won't close the deal again because I'm worried she might getting feelings for me. Hence part of the - why do I want to be a nice guy?

I hear you, and I'm the same way. I've turned away young hotties because I thought I would be bad for them for various reasons (yeah, I know guys, I'm a f---ing idiot -- I'm working on it -- save your comments). On my part, it's conditioning and guilt, and I'm working on it.

Here's a question for you. Take a few minutes before you answer:

-- If you've told this other girl that you don't want a relationship, and there's clear sexual tension still, then isn't she telling you that she's modified her ask and she'd be happy with something more casual?

If your answer is yes, then why not give it a try?

And maybe it'll give you something to compare against your time with little Miss Thanksgiving Dinner, who seems to me like a honeytrap trying to lock you down.

[Eddie Winslow]

OP, it looks like your personal boundaries are all fucked up.

I don't know you, but it looks like you sub-consciously (or maybe consciously?) believe that you were put on this earth to supplicate to a woman's every whim. You probably feel like a "bad person" if you don't do things the way they want, when they want it, because you don't want to disappoint them. God forbid a poor delicate woman is ever mildly disappointed or inconvenienced because we men put value on our own wants and needs!

You have a fear of what will happen if you challenge, confront, or attempt to impose your will on a woman in any capacity. Relationships of any type are about compromise - both sides need to acknowledge their needs and work together to find a middle ground where both parties are satisfied. You don't have to be manipulative douche who tries to get 100% your way 100% of the time - you just have to set boundaries and be willing to stick them in the face of conflict.

It sounds like you're scared to even acknowledge your true wants or needs because you're afraid they might not line up perfectly with what she wants, and you'll have to be temporarily out of your comfort zone.

I do not mean to be harsh - but this is not an uncommon problem or concept. Understand your are not a special case that stumps relationships experts around the world.

Instead of just expressing (verbally or better yet, non-verbally) the fact that you want casual sex without commitment (and letting her be potentially sad/upset/disgusted with you), you are opting to lead her on by meeting her kid and parents before even banging her ONCE.

Instead of taking turns with your ex-wife sleeping on the couch vs. the nice comfortable bed, you chose to let her have her way all the time just so you can avoid confrontation.

And instead of acknowledging that you are scared to express your true intentions/desires/needs to a woman and then consciously enforce healthy boundaries anyway, you are posting here looking for validation or life hacks on how you can get exactly what you want from relationships without facing your fears or being a little uncomfortable.

Happiness is obtainable but it won't always be a cakewalk. The choice is yours dude.

TLDR - Be unapologetic about your personal wants and needs.