[speakeasy]

(09-10-2011 11:19 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(09-10-2011 11:10 AM)Roosh Wrote:  

Quote:

That's just so ridiculous; the USA could just have BOUGHT some more oil from their tinpot dictators in Iraq or Iran or whoever they needed.

Having the ability to buy something is not the same as having your hands on the spigots. It's like being able to buy the television versus owning the factory that produces the television.

Oil is power. No amount of money can be placed on it by its incompetent leaders when you're trying to maintain power.

But what are we doing with this power?

We have our hands on the oil spigots, and our nation is broke as fuck. What the hell was the plan? Take the oil so you can... go bankrupt???

If we were using this oil for strategic warfare purposes, we'd be making boatloads of $$$ from the conquered lands. Instead, we are spending money to rebuild Iraq! What kind of world domination plan is that?

Yeah, if we own Iraq, why the fuck aren't we paying 10 cents a gallon for gas like they do in Venezuela? If we've taken over their oil, we sure aren't getting much out of it.

For those that say the government knew the attack was going to happen and deliberately allowed it, why would they allow a plane to strike the Pentagon? Especially when you think of how critical that building is to our government. I could even somewhat see that scenario if the twin towers were the only target. But you'd also have to believe that they were willing to let the Pentagon get blown up and either the white house or capitol building if the plot wasn't foiled by the passengers fighting back. I have a 9/11 "truther" friend who still isn't convinced a plane hit the Pentagon despite literally hundreds of civilian witnesses. They think the Pentagon planted a bomb in there or hit it with a missile. It's funny when people start piling layer upon layer of conspiracy to patch over holes in logic. To these type of people there's nothing in the world that will ever shake their conspiratorial world view.

To me the most plausible scenario is that the government dropped the ball. They probably get shitloads of false alarms and these things are always easier to piece together in hindsight than in foresight. The overwhelming majority of terror warnings are false positives and our guard was down. It was really just a matter of time before something slipped through the cracks.

In response to some of the statements some are making about the improbability of a WTC7 collapse because it's never happened before, we are looking at unusual circumstances here. Heavy structural damage from the falling debris of the main towers, and intense fires raging around critical support structures for 7 hours. Even if it does seem improbable, it's not impossible. Every time the NTSB investigates a plane crash, it's often traced back to some improbable engineering flaw that started a chain reaction culminating in a catastrophe. Look at that Air France jet that went down over the Atlantic a couple years ago for example. Something as simple as a flawed pitot tube measuring air pressure caused an entire jet to end up at the bottom of the ocean.

[Kish]

(09-10-2011 01:55 PM)megaframe Wrote:  

What 1500 Architects and Engineers? I checked out their website, but I have not even come close to finding a list of names. Just because they give out numbers means nothing, and if you do not know who these people are, you cannot determine their credentials.

LMAO!

http://www2.ae911truth.org/signpetition....supporters

1,559 to be exact. Their names are there and you can click the profiles.

How many more Engineers and Architects need to tell you before you believe?? Just look at how the buildings fell.

There's nothing wrong with being skeptical but just use common sense. The problem with the skeptics is they never ask the right questions. Remove your government baby bottle and wake up!

[bmn200]

Also people seem to be throwing around the term "we" a lot but please give some thought to who "we" is and who is really part of that group.

[thegmanifesto]

"Yeah, if we own Iraq, why the fuck aren't we paying 10 cents a gallon for gas like they do in Venezuela?"

Because who would that benefit?

It is not about you and me.

[speakeasy]

(09-10-2011 02:23 PM)rakishness Wrote:  

(09-10-2011 01:55 PM)megaframe Wrote:  

What 1500 Architects and Engineers? I checked out their website, but I have not even come close to finding a list of names. Just because they give out numbers means nothing, and if you do not know who these people are, you cannot determine their credentials.

LMAO!

http://www2.ae911truth.org/signpetition....supporters

1,559 to be exact. Their names are there and you can click the profiles.

How many more Engineers and Architects need to tell you before you believe?? Just look at how the buildings fell.

There's nothing wrong with being skeptical but just use common sense. The problem with the skeptics is they never ask the right questions. Remove your government baby bottle and wake up!

Let's be a little more critical here. What kind of quality control is on that site? I went to click the sign now button to see how they screen people for legitimacy. You don't even have to be a professional to sign your name there. You can just be a student or work in a field that isn't even related to construction(such as one guy on there that is an airline pilot). The names come from all over the world. I'm assuming the great majority of these signers have never even been to the WTC site, never did any tests on the debris or ran any hands on studies. Look at the names carefully on the list. Many of them don't even have any job title attached. One guy lists his profession as a plumber! Yeah I'm really going to take his word for it! This organization is trying to give the impression that these are 1500 professionals qualified in the fields of demolition and construction engineering, but many of them have little relevance to the matter at hand.

Secondly, 1500 people(being a mix of professionals and students) in the worldwide population is NOTHING. A fraction of a percent compared with how many professionals there are in the field. Just like you can always find a couple percent of climate scientist to deny climate change while ignoring the other 99% saying the opposite. You always have to remember the Elvis Factor. 12% of Americans believe Elvis is still alive. Think about 12% of 300 million people. My point is, finding 1500 people to sign on to ANYTHING is nothing all that impressive. Hell, the Flat Earth Society boasted twice that number.

PS - Not trying to ridicule anyone, just presenting some challenges.

[Giovonny]

I'm glad we are finally discussing this here. Its a touchy subject and we will never know the truth. I don't know what the fuck happened but there sure was alot of funny shit about the whole thing.

It wouldn't be the first time our government did something like this.

"Operation Northwoods" is proven by CIA documents. Many governments use "false flag" tactics to promote their agendas. We know this shit has been going on since Machiavellian times. Did it happen on 9/11? Who knows? But, where there is smoke there is usually fire.

(09-10-2011 02:22 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

if we own Iraq, why the fuck aren't we paying 10 cents a gallon for gas like they do in Venezuela?

If Exxon-Mobile, Chevron, and BP lowered the price to 10 cents or even 1 dollar, they would lose billions of dollars a day. Those companies are the most profitable companies on the planet. Why would they lower their prices?

Cartels form monopolies to make more money. Not to give people a better deal.

They are not trying to give us a better price. They are trying to make trillions.

Businesses only lower their prices if they are not selling enough.

[Kish]

(09-10-2011 02:54 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Let's be a little more critical here. What kind of quality control is on that site? I went to click the sign now button to see how they screen people for legitimacy. You don't even have to be a professional to sign your name there. You can just be a student or work in a field that isn't even related to construction(such as one guy on there that is an airline pilot). The names come from all over the world. I'm assuming the great majority of these signers have never even been to the WTC site, never did any tests on the debris or ran any hands on studies. Look at the names carefully on the list. Many of them don't even have any job title attached. One guy lists his profession as a plumber! Yeah I'm really going to take his word for it! This organization is trying to give the impression that these are 1500 professionals qualified in the fields of demolition and construction engineering, but many of them have little relevance to the matter at hand.

Secondly, 1500 people(being a mix of professionals and students) in the worldwide population is NOTHING. A fraction of a percent compared with how many professionals there are in the field. Just like you can always find a couple percent of climate scientist to deny climate change while ignoring the other 99% saying the opposite. You always have to remember the Elvis Factor. 12% of Americans believe Elvis is still alive. Think about 12% of 300 million people. My point is, finding 1500 people to sign on to ANYTHING is nothing all that impressive. Hell, the Flat Earth Society boasted twice that number.

Do you see the green asterisk? You need a license and registration number to sign the petition
http://www2.ae911truth.org/signnow.php

So that's how they screen for fakes. 12,000 plus have signed the petition but 1,559 verified professionals have also signed it.

[Giovonny]

(09-10-2011 07:11 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

the thought of the govt being involved is absurd.

Why is it absurd? They government was involved in the "Gulf of Tonkin", and "Operation Northwoods". Those 2 incidents prove that this type of stuff has happened before.

Remember the Enron Scandal? The government of California knew about it but did nothing.

The FBI recently got in trouble for allowing the gangster "Whitey Bulger" to stay in operation.

The Iran-Contra Scandal.

This stuff happens.

(09-10-2011 07:11 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

no way something that HUGE can stay hidden from the public. someone would blow the whistle, there would be a leak no question.

You are assuming that alot of people knew about it. Why would the people in charge tell a bunch of people about this. They are not that stupid. The fewer people who know about it, the better. I think that if we knew about this it was only a handful of people who knew.

If hundreds or thousands of people knew about this, there probably would be a leak. Our government is not that stupid were they are just gonna tell alot of people about it. These are the kinds of things that very few people know about.

[speakeasy]

(09-10-2011 03:21 PM)rakishness Wrote:  

Do you see the green asterisk? You need a license and registration number to sign the petition
http://www2.ae911truth.org/signnow.php

So that's how they screen for fakes. 12,000 plus have signed the petition but 1,559 verified professionals have also signed it.

I did look at the rules for signing. You only need a license if you are an A&E professional. However you can still leave the field blank if you are a student or fit in the "other" category like the airline pilot.

Giovanny Wrote:

You are assuming that alot of people knew about it. Why would the people in charge tell a bunch of people about this. They are not that stupid. The fewer people who know about it, the better. I think that if we knew about this it was only a handful of people who knew.

If hundreds or thousands of people knew about this, there probably would be a leak. Our government is not that stupid were they are just gonna tell alot of people about it. These are the kinds of things that very few people know about.

It would have took more than a few people to plan this. The people that recruited the hijackers, the private flying schools that trained them, the airport screeners that let them through, the workers that wired the buildings for demolition, the cleanup crews that would hide the chemical and other evidence of demolition from the rubble, building staff that turned a blind eye to explosives being planted in the building. A plot this big would leak, dude! Now also consider that it could've easily gone wrong. What if it was raining and foggy that day and the pilots couldn't see the twin towers? They navigated to NYC by following the Hudson river as they were not well trained enough to fly by instruments only. They lucked out that 9/11 just happened to fall on a clear day where they could easily see the landscape. If was overcast the whole plot would've been foiled.

[Kish]

(09-10-2011 03:51 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(09-10-2011 03:21 PM)rakishness Wrote:  

Do you see the green asterisk? You need a license and registration number to sign the petition
http://www2.ae911truth.org/signnow.php

So that's how they screen for fakes. 12,000 plus have signed the petition but 1,559 verified professionals have also signed it.

I did look at the rules for signing. You only need a license if you are an A&E professional. However you can still leave the field blank if you are a student or fit in the "other" category like the airline pilot.

Yea I know. The point is 1500+ verified Architects and Engineers don't believe the official story.

[megaframe]

(09-10-2011 04:15 PM)rakishness Wrote:  

Yea I know. The point is 1500+ verified Architects and Engineers don't believe the official story.

And how many Architects and Engineers do believe the official story? If you don't have anything to compare it to, your numbers mean nothing.

[Ajiaco]

I was tired of 9/11 almost immediately afterwards. The fact that this is still pored and obsessed over is to be expected, it was quite an amazing attack, but mostly it just bores me. I think Al Qaeda did it, and while asking questions is all good by me, there is simply no evidence that any conspiracy existed to perpetrate 9/11. The whole truther case is "holes" in the official story, but every official story is going to have holes. And it's not like the USA ever needs an excuse to drop bombs on foreign countries. There is zero evidence of a plausible conspiracy theory that explains events that day. Until someone finds that, we are all just guessing and masturbating. This article basically sums up most of what I feel towards inside job type arguments related to 9/11, and the fact that they are just as much of a distraction as apathy would be:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/09/02/t...ese-years/

While activists waste their time going down the truther rabbit hole, the real people in charge get away with God knows what else. That being said, while most people were mourning the dead and feeling sad, other people used 9/11 as an excuse to grab a whole lotta money and power.

http://www.villagevoice.com/content/prin...n/3017245/

And then what to me is the saddest point: You have a better chance of getting struck by lightning or drowning in a bathtub than dying in a terrorist attack. Yet its all anyone seems to talk about in the political arena. Worrying about terrorism is so overblown and idiotic, and yet some people talk about nothing else.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_.../terrorism

I learned a lot in the aftermath of 9/11. Imagine another attack like that happening, think we'll all be united this time around? We are all a lot more cynical now, for better or worse.

[Gmac]

Nothing is ever as black and white as people believe... there's plenty of truth mixed in with the lies that were undoubtedly told. It's like arguing politics or religion, nobody's going to change anyone else's mind.

[blurb]

To be honest, I've grown enough apathy to where I just don't care.

Everyone's arguing who did what, when, where, and why. It's kind of like the reason why history has recently turned me off; it is so subjective no one agrees on anything anymore. So many books written by so many different people. In the end, how will we ever know? What good will it do for me to know? People accuse; people deny. Everything is biased. Everyone tries to be objective, but our opinions always seem to seep into our conclusions. How many times have you seen two people vehemently arguing with one person finally giving a logically superior structured argument and then the other person suddenly say,"Oh, you made such a great well-reasoned argument, you win! I'm going to change my opinoin."? Never. I've never seen it happen.

It's terrible what happened and that people were killed. We'll never fully know exactly what happened which is why this is such a futile undertaking.

[jariel]

(09-10-2011 01:55 PM)megaframe Wrote:  

(09-10-2011 11:56 AM)jariel Wrote:  

The government has admitted that the murders of MLK and JFK were both conspiracies, or in other words, what really happened to them is different than the official stories.

Since when?

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/sel...ee-report/

Where there's smoke, there's fire.

[Samseau]

(09-10-2011 02:11 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Sam -

"But what are we doing with this power?"

Its not about "we" meaning you and me. Never has been, never will be. There are many that have gotten more powerful.

"We have our hands on the oil spigots, and our nation is broke as fuck. What the hell was the plan? Take the oil so you can... go bankrupt???"

Follow the money. Many have gotten rich beyond their wildest dreams from all this.

"If we were using this oil for strategic warfare purposes, we'd be making boatloads of $$$ from the conquered lands. Instead, we are spending money to rebuild Iraq! What kind of world domination plan is that?"

Again, follow the money. People are getting rich off "rebuilding Iraq".

Unfortunately, it is not your average American.

You know, I never even thought of that. You're describing an evil that's almost unimaginable, which is probably why it's true.

Most likely, some ultra powerful oligarchs have used the American government for their own ends during the past decade to funnel America's wealth into their own pockets.

This explains why America's wealth is concentrated into the hands of .001%. The wars, the endless loans, the bailouts and money printing, etc.


If these people exist, and thinking about it, there's a 90% chance that they do, I still don't believe that these people orchestrated 9/11. Instead, they are the ones most responsible for funding, and continuing to fund, Al-Qaeda in some form or another.

These people wanted a terrorist attack to happen on America soil so they could goad the public to their own ends, but they probably never imagined how successful 9/11 would be.


Al-Qaeda isn't the real threat then. The traitors within America are. Looks like the situation is truly hopeless then.

[jariel]

You're pretty behind, Hillary Clinton publicly admitted last year that the U.S. created, funded, armed, and trained "Al-Qaeda".

[thegmanifesto]

(09-10-2011 08:06 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(09-10-2011 02:11 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

Sam -

"But what are we doing with this power?"

Its not about "we" meaning you and me. Never has been, never will be. There are many that have gotten more powerful.

"We have our hands on the oil spigots, and our nation is broke as fuck. What the hell was the plan? Take the oil so you can... go bankrupt???"

Follow the money. Many have gotten rich beyond their wildest dreams from all this.

"If we were using this oil for strategic warfare purposes, we'd be making boatloads of $$$ from the conquered lands. Instead, we are spending money to rebuild Iraq! What kind of world domination plan is that?"

Again, follow the money. People are getting rich off "rebuilding Iraq".

Unfortunately, it is not your average American.

You know, I never even thought of that. You're describing an evil that's almost unimaginable, which is probably why it's true.

Most likely, some ultra powerful oligarchs have used the American government for their own ends during the past decade to funnel America's wealth into their own pockets.

This explains why America's wealth is concentrated into the hands of .001%. The wars, the endless loans, the bailouts and money printing, etc.


If these people exist, and thinking about it, there's a 90% chance that they do, I still don't believe that these people orchestrated 9/11. Instead, they are the ones most responsible for funding, and continuing to fund, Al-Qaeda in some form or another.

These people wanted a terrorist attack to happen on America soil so they could goad the public to their own ends, but they probably never imagined how successful 9/11 would be.


Al-Qaeda isn't the real threat then. The traitors within America are. Looks like the situation is truly hopeless then.

Exactamundo.

If you want to find out who the traitors are, look no further than almost every politician with a "D" or "R" next to their names.

And then, as always, follow the money trail to who funds them.

[Giovonny]

(09-10-2011 03:51 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

It would have took more than a few people to plan this

It was a very simple operation. Learn how to fly, get control of the cockpit, fly into building. Thats it. Once that happened the people would support a war in the Mid-East.

Quote:

The people that recruited the hijackers

Al-Queda?

Quote:

the private flying schools that trained them

"private flying schools"? All they had to do is pay tuition. Those guys were in the country legally.

Quote:


the airport screeners that let them through

No one had to "let" them through. They boarded the planes legally without weapons.

Quote:

the workers that wired the buildings for demolition

Maybe the planes really did bring the building down. It doesn't mean we didn't know about it and/or play a part in the planning.

Quote:

the cleanup crews that would hide the chemical and other evidence of demolition from the rubble

Clean up crews are not trained in forensics. Clean up crews guys are garbage men. There was no criminal investigation done.

(09-10-2011 03:51 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

What if it was raining and foggy that day and the pilots couldn't see the twin towers?

They obviously would not be afraid to fly at ridiculously low levels or even crash into the city streets if they had to. They were 2 for 2 on hitting the towers so they couldn't have been that bad of pilots.


Speakeasy,

I'm only doing this for the sake of argument. I don't necessarily believe this is exactly what happened. I just want to show that it doesn't take alot of people to pull this off.

19 hijackers and their leadership. Trained to fly, get on a plane without guns or bombs. We knew about it and we let it happen. Its not that far fetched is it?

A few intelligence people uncover the plan. They inform their superiors. The White House takes no action. It could be as simple as that. Basically, allowing it to slip through the cracks.

Maybe explosives were not used. Maybe it really was the jet fuel. That might be even more believable.

Don't respond to this unless you really want to. I'm just saying that not alot of people had to know about this to make it happen. No baggage handlers, security guards, ticket checkers, clean up crews, or anybody in the military to lift a finger, or even know anything about it.

[speakeasy]

(09-10-2011 04:22 PM)megaframe Wrote:  

And how many Architects and Engineers do believe the official story? If you don't have anything to compare it to, your numbers mean nothing.

I wouldn't say that. It's not like someone launched a website even soliciting signatures of people who DON'T believe it was an inside job. And if there were I'm sure it would far outnumber those who believe it was an inside job.

[megaframe]

(09-10-2011 10:56 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

I wouldn't say that. It's not like someone launched a website even soliciting signatures of people who DON'T believe it was an inside job. And if there were I'm sure it would far outnumber those who believe it was an inside job.

Well, it's obvious that there wouldn't be a list of people who don't believe it, but the thing is that 1500 isn't a significant number if he's not comparing it to anything. What if there are, I don't know, 50,000 architects and engineers that don't believe it was an inside job. I don't know the actual numbers, but I'm sure there are vastly more than 1500 of them in the US alone. You can't just pull numbers out of anywhere you like and act as if they mean something.

[Giovonny]

(09-10-2011 08:06 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

You know, I never even thought of that. You're describing an evil that's almost unimaginable

Unimaginable? This shit has been going on for a long time. Didn't Machiavelli write about how to win over the people? Didn't Hitler study mass manipulation as well?

Those in power have always tried to increase their power, control, and profits. Often with shady tactics.

Quote:

Looks like the situation is truly hopeless then.

At least we are not starving or living in a war zone. Or being hunted by some crazy guy who thinks we are his enemy. Living in the 1st world is still a good life.

[Tbone]

speakeasy is making a lot of sense in his comments, especially this one...

(09-10-2011 03:51 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

It would have took more than a few people to plan this. The people that recruited the hijackers, the private flying schools that trained them, the airport screeners that let them through, the workers that wired the buildings for demolition, the cleanup crews that would hide the chemical and other evidence of demolition from the rubble, building staff that turned a blind eye to explosives being planted in the building. A plot this big would leak, dude!

and this comment as well....

"For those that say the government knew the attack was going to happen and deliberately allowed it, why would they allow a plane to strike the Pentagon? Especially when you think of how critical that building is to our government. I could even somewhat see that scenario if the twin towers were the only target. But you'd also have to believe that they were willing to let the Pentagon get blown up and either the white house or capitol building if the plot wasn't foiled by the passengers fighting back."

[Dash Global]

(09-11-2011 12:18 AM)Tbone Wrote:  

speakeasy is making a lot of sense in his comments, especially this one...

(09-10-2011 03:51 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

It would have took more than a few people to plan this. The people that recruited the hijackers, the private flying schools that trained them, the airport screeners that let them through, the workers that wired the buildings for demolition, the cleanup crews that would hide the chemical and other evidence of demolition from the rubble, building staff that turned a blind eye to explosives being planted in the building. A plot this big would leak, dude!

and this comment as well....

"For those that say the government knew the attack was going to happen and deliberately allowed it, why would they allow a plane to strike the Pentagon? Especially when you think of how critical that building is to our government. I could even somewhat see that scenario if the twin towers were the only target. But you'd also have to believe that they were willing to let the Pentagon get blown up and either the white house or capitol building if the plot wasn't foiled by the passengers fighting back."

lol at the people thinking only a "few people" could have known about this and executed it.

thinking the govt is gonna plan and kill thousands of innocent americans is just absurd. that would be a certain life or death sentence if someone found out and blew the whistle. Even if you think our politicians are Hitler and the devil the risk is just to high and not worth it. they are all living the good life before and after 9/11.

this kind of stuff can happen in 3rd world countries with dictators and shit but not in a 1st world democratic country. just too much planning involved, too many people, to big of risk of getting caught.

[jariel]

(09-11-2011 12:41 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

thinking the govt is gonna plan and kill thousands of innocent americans is just absurd.

What is war then?