[Abraxas]

Having studied the precepts of the seduction community for many years now, I have discovered a wealth of strategies and insights that have enhanced my life immeasurably. However, one particular aspect of traditional PUA dogma on which I have never been sold is the reticence to spend any money on one's target (or "victim" to use Robert Greene's terminology). I'm sure most of you are familiar with Roissy/Heartiste's "Skittles Man" post in which he glowingly describes a guy who buys a girl that he's fucking a bag of Skittles for her birthday. Another example is the classic response when a girl asks you to buy her a drink: "No, but you can buy me one."

I fully admit that I haven't field tested these particular techniques, but I'm somewhat old-fashioned when it comes to dating. I'm not wealthy by any means but I can easily afford to pick up the check if I take a girl out to dinner, and I prefer to do so (yes, I do still take girls out on dinner dates; naturally I'm not going to do so with some random club slut but once I'm beginning to get to know a girl and she seems like a potentially worthy dating prospect I see nothing wrong with it).

So what is it with this hesitation to spend negligible amounts of money? Perhaps the issue is that I don't do a lot of night game. Not a big club guy. I go out at night occasionally but I am much more suited to daygame environments (libraries, bookstores, cafes). It seems like if I'm vibing with a girl and we're enjoying a great meal it would just be awkward and break the flow to say "OK, let's split the check. You got cash or a card?" I'm the man in this dynamic--I'm going to pay for dinner, or drinks, or movie tickets, or whatever. It's not going to break me. Hell, such minor expenses are a drop in the bucket. In The Art Of Seduction, Robert Greene lists cheapness (he describes the type as "the tightwad") as one of the most anti-seductive traits a man can possess, and I am inclined to agree.

I should qualify by stating that I do realize that some guys (particularly at clubs and bars) OPEN attractive women by offering to buy them drinks, which is just unbelievably lame and, though I've never been dumb enough to try it, I can't imagine this ever working. It's like announcing that you're a mark to be taken advantage of. Outside of this scenario, however, I would rather pay than have to hassle with splitting the bill.

[Cobra]

Not necessary to start an entire thread on this dude. There's other similar threads you could post in. Try that next time.

[The Catalyst]

The problem is when the spare cash is *not* negligible/a drop in the bucket. I'm going to guess most of the cheapness comes from guys who would genuinely be helped by the extra money.

[Rush87]

(09-22-2017 10:45 PM)Abraxas Wrote:  

Having studied the precepts of the seduction community for many years now, I have discovered a wealth of strategies and insights that have enhanced my life immeasurably. However, one particular aspect of traditional PUA dogma on which I have never been sold is the reticence to spend any money on one's target (or "victim" to use Robert Greene's terminology). I'm sure most of you are familiar with Roissy/Heartiste's "Skittles Man" post in which he glowingly describes a guy who buys a girl that he's fucking a bag of Skittles for her birthday. Another example is the classic response when a girl asks you to buy her a drink: "No, but you can buy me one."

I fully admit that I haven't field tested these particular techniques, but I'm somewhat old-fashioned when it comes to dating. I'm not wealthy by any means but I can easily afford to pick up the check if I take a girl out to dinner, and I prefer to do so (yes, I do still take girls out on dinner dates; naturally I'm not going to do so with some random club slut but once I'm beginning to get to know a girl and she seems like a potentially worthy dating prospect I see nothing wrong with it).

So what is it with this hesitation to spend negligible amounts of money? Perhaps the issue is that I don't do a lot of night game. Not a big club guy. I go out at night occasionally but I am much more suited to daygame environments (libraries, bookstores, cafes). It seems like if I'm vibing with a girl and we're enjoying a great meal it would just be awkward and break the flow to say "OK, let's split the check. You got cash or a card?" I'm the man in this dynamic--I'm going to pay for dinner, or drinks, or movie tickets, or whatever. It's not going to break me. Hell, such minor expenses are a drop in the bucket. In The Art Of Seduction, Robert Greene lists cheapness (he describes the type as "the tightwad") as one of the most anti-seductive traits a man can possess, and I am inclined to agree.

I should qualify by stating that I do realize that some guys (particularly at clubs and bars) OPEN attractive women by offering to buy them drinks, which is just unbelievably lame and, though I've never been dumb enough to try it, I can't imagine this ever working. It's like announcing that you're a mark to be taken advantage of. Outside of this scenario, however, I would rather pay than have to hassle with splitting the bill.

Because more often than not spending money is used as a crutch to try and buy women's affections. In other words, it's a cheap tool which will empty your pockets, subliminally put them on a pedestal and NOT get you the lay.

If you are aware of this however, I do understand that it does make things more 'chill'. It's for this reason that I usually pay for everything, but I do it to make my night more enjoyable. Not theirs.

[Abraxas]

(09-23-2017 12:51 AM)Rush87 Wrote:  

I usually pay for everything, but I do it to make my night more enjoyable. Not theirs.

Well put. This is the crux of it right here. As I said, I am not wealthy by any means, but I do okay for my age (29), and I am the type of the guy that enjoys nice restaurants and hotels. I appreciate luxury; always have. It's something my father instilled in me. Now I'm not talking about American Psycho-esque, pretentious gourmet restaurants or anything like that, but I tend to prefer places that end up costing $20-$30 more than say a place like Olive Garden for example. Occasionally I will take a girl to a nice place like this (and this is only in the context of an LTR or a girl that I have been out with and slept with many times--NEVER on one of our first few dates). There have been instances where the girl was from a slightly lower class background and felt uncomfortable, but I simply explain that this is where I like to eat--it's not to impress her or try to buy her love or sex (which at that point I have gotten many times already anyway). I go out to eat by myself fairly regularly and if I feel like indulging I would post up by myself at the bar at a similar type of establishment. Once I have explained this to the girl (and she can sense my authenticity), we end up having a great time.

It's a complex issue because it's absolutely pathetic to try to buy your way into a girl's pants or to try to DHV with money (doubly so if you're not actually rich), but I think being a cheap bastard is even worse.

[Irish]

there is a distinction. Whether it's money you were going to spend anyway to have a good time. Say for example going for bottle service and a table rather than queuing up at the bar. Cos you have the disposable cash and that's how you and your crew rolls. You would have done it anyway whether she was there or not.

Compare that to guys blatantly trying to buy their way into a chicks pants - such as forking out for a new handbag or iphone for her before you've even banged is a very different thing entirely. Besides that kind of shit tends to work against you anyway - if the girl is saavy enough she will stick around and give off enough signals that it's in the bag. But the pussy will constantly be dangled ever so slightly out of reach in order for the free prizes, business class flights and holidays to keep rolling in. Will play the 'im not that kind of girl' line ad infinitum while she's still getting banged out on the side by the bartender/bad boy who hasn't a pot to piss in.

Of course it can get into grey area territory: Sure I've taken a few birds to expensive dinners in my time. But mainly because I want to go eat a wagyu steak with a fun hot chick at one of the cities nicest rooftop venues. Besides, a hot chick below 25 ain't going to have the wonga to go dutch anyway. And even if she did, I would insist on paying. Otherwise I would just feel cheap.

Guys who take a sense of pride about being able to not spend a dime on a girl. Or who post about their "cost-to-bang ratio' are really more interested in trying to impress guys on the internet and padding out their online casanova persona than getting the girls themselves. Boasting about how you took a 9 to a hawker stand and made her pay her way for her $2.50 noodles before laying the pipe may sound great on a forum, but regardless of how epic your level of game, one does have to question how many "9s" get dressed up for the food court on a friday night?

These sort of "didn't spend a dime on her mate" wanna-be PUA forum brags usually say more about the quality of the dude posting than the quality of his game

[Chris Brown]

Meanwhile some homeless migrant fucks white women on piles of trash.

[Abraxas]

(09-23-2017 02:28 AM)Chris Brown Wrote:  

Meanwhile some homeless migrant fucks white women on piles of trash.

Fair point. It's indisputable that there are bum ass dudes who pull regularly, and given that "broke game" is most effective on young girls (17-22) that don't know the difference, some of the girls are very hot. Not my style, personally, and I can't imagine that it's an effective long term strategy. Guys who are legitimately destitute are compensating with some other value factor that renders their lack of finances irrelevant: charisma, good looks, bad boy credentials, in a band (this is probably the most common gambit), socially popular party type, or some combination thereof. Doubtful that this would be particularly effective after one's late 20s, except on older women maybe.

[N°6]

It is because the lifestyles of Western women which require them to delay marriage until the last quarter (or until the 2-minute warning in some cases) of their fertility has created the "hook up culture". After all, very few women are going to stay celibate until their late marriages now that the Pill and the abortionist's knife have removed the pregnancy risk.

In the Game 1.0 era, when the Internet was still young, men brought up to be traditional husbands entered a "hook up culture" which was totally hostile and alien to how they thought the dating market to be. Worse, they saw the crudest types of men prosper in the liberal sexual market place without having to spend a penny. Now over a decade older, they see how a soulmate can fuck a white woman on a pile of rubbish on the street. They are not surprised any more as they have learnt that liberated female sexuality is more feral than men's.

This caused a reaction against the Beta dating methods that were designed for an era when young women sought husbands and a family. The doctrines against buying drinks and gifts is one such example because the "hook up culture" caused men with reduced market values to buy gifts out of supplication and women took advantage of this - especially in environments with imbalanced sex-ratios like nightclubs and online dating. The very same acts that were successful for men's ancestors as a courting ritual had become totally counter-productive and the levels of involuntary celibacy among men rose.

When you get older, validated and revalidated by women and when you naturally adopt Inner Game, Beta deeds become less lame. You can buy drinks to share goodwill as opposed to investing in a woman's favour to make up the gap in relative values with coin. The only difference is that buying drinks can be done from a position of power not neediness.

"And without doubt the lessor is blessed by the greater" - Hebrews 7:7

[NordicTom]

Great post N°6 - that’s exactly what it’s about. Being 40+ myself and dating women 15-22 years younger I constantly end up paying for restaurants, drinks, even holidays, because she would not be able to afford paying for the standard I’m used to and like. But with the exception of drinks that’s after she slept with me and demonstrated she likes me for me and not for the money. And I also make sure that when she suggests for example going to see a movie, she pays for the tickets and the popcorn, as that’s within her ability.

[N°6]

(09-23-2017 05:17 AM)NordicTom Wrote:  

Great post N°6 - that’s exactly what it’s about. Being 40+ myself and dating women 15-22 years younger I constantly end up paying for restaurants, drinks, even holidays, because she would not be able to afford paying for the standard I’m used to and like. But with the exception of drinks that’s after she slept with me and demonstrated she likes me for me and not for the money. And I also make sure that when she suggests for example going to see a movie, she pays for the tickets and the popcorn, as that’s within her ability.

I do that too as the danger of failing a shit test is still present. Sometimes I tell them, "it's your round" if I feel they are getting too comfortable. It shocks them but they always comply.

[yankeetravels]

This has always been a tough debate for me as a guy fresh out of college with not the best income prepared to my fellow RVF members.

In my early days, I used to pay for everything for my girlfriend and a few tinder dates around here. Spent a lot on a short-term gf but no sex, and probably spent up to $50 on a first tinder date without getting any. That was my past though and I've changed my ways since.

I think part of it for me depends on what part of the world I'm in. When I was in the Philippines, I was willing to pay for more luxury because my money went further. For example, a couple of weeks in, I spent $70 on a dinner with a bottle purchased on my mini-ltr and I because we had been having sex for three weeks, having a great time together, she had proven she'd be willing to take care of me when I was sick, cooking and cleaning in my place, and bringing me food often, plus rarely asking me for any transportation money. The point was in the past, she showed she was worth a bigger investment than most girls without me demonstrating I was willing to spend that kind of money on her.

In the Philippines, I've spent between $5-20 on first dates simply because that's how much a meal cost in some of these places. Always paid for the girl's food and maybe a beer or two. Very rarely I paid for an Uber for the girl but if I really felt like she couldn't do it, the value was there, and they weren't using me as an ATM. However, a cab is something I'd never do in America.

At the same time, girls have asked me to buy gifts for their aunts and get bathing suits for them in the Phils, but I pretty much just laugh in their face when they ask me these things. I do buy into that you have to set limits and make sure you're spending for the right reasons. There were two girls in the Philippines that were trying to blatantly use me for cash without putting out on the first date, one went as far as to make up that her cousin was an Uber driver. When the date didn't go well, I told her to fuck off and that she's not getting shit from me.

It's all about the place you're at, how far your income goes, and the frame you're presenting to me. You have to make sure you're spending money on a girl for the right reasons and the right things otherwise you could end up with a gold digger.

[churros]

To me this just falls under calibration. You can tell when a girl is using you. When she's not, who cares. One develops this intuition as one's skill develops.

In my early twenties, I'd buy them nothing. Now I'm ten years older than most of these chicks, yeah I'll buy them a drink. Recognising this change in status was a breakthrough for my game.

Money can be holistically integrated into good game. It's a tool. It's money without game that leads to problems.

[The Stronger Sex]

The whole obsession with drinks in the "community" at large reeks of autism. First, I don't even know what kind of girls you associate with who go around harassing men for drinks. Are they prostitutes? Second, who the fuck cares? Like churros says, does she have the hots for you? Go for her. Is she some sort of hustler? Next her. Big deal. But for fuck's sake, don't make one big principled speech out who pays for a fucking drink.

[LINUX]

(09-23-2017 01:58 PM)The Stronger Sex Wrote:  

The whole obsession with drinks in the "community" at large reeks of autism. First, I don't even know what kind of girls you associate with who go around harassing men for drinks. Are they prostitutes? Second, who the fuck cares? Like churros says, does she have the hots for you? Go for her. Is she some sort of hustler? Next her. Big deal. But for fuck's sake, don't make one big principled speech out who pays for a fucking drink.

Calm down. It was a good post where he compared and contrasted what multiple people said in the community. We need more of these types of post instead of you coming in here telling him not to make one big principled speech out of "fucking drink" while also starting your own" how do I tame my inner alpha" in a job interview thread.

Like I said, his post was good. Chill out.

And Abraxas, pay attention to every word Irish wrote. It's 100% truth.

[alex homer]

To me this just falls under calibration. You can tell when a girl is using you. When she's not, who cares.

Agreed and no one can use anyone unless they enjoy or are willing to be used themselves..

[RatInTheWoods]

I think there are two issues here getting mixed up when it comes to splashing cash.

Spending money on a woman can be beta - buying her everything before she has earned it, buying her what she asks for, paying for everything because you want to get laid etc.

Spending money like a ballin alpha will get you laid - buying what you want, spending on lifestyle and experiences, buying her random shit, not buying her what she asks for etc.

Its not spending money, its spending money on her like a beta thats bad.

[N°6]

Game 1.0 was developed by men of the similar ages of men who are learning PUA - under 25.

As I have mentioned above, because of the "hook up culture" which has formed because women are delaying marriage until they are near 30, most men join a market place which places them in the "No go zone". Others automatically enter it in the Husband Zone but here is where most of the risk is as I will explain below.

Men of below average looks and below average wealth now enter the "no go zone" when they begin to look for a girlfriend.

The female primary hook up culture puts men into three zones:

1. No go zone
2. Fun zone
3. Husband zone

The reason why the "drinks/ gift buying" mating courtship which worked for our fathers and grandfathers doesn't work is because most young women are not shopping in the Husband Zone yet.

The problem with buying drinks relates to men who are in the "No go zone" or are kept in the "husband zone" reserve until the woman he likes decides its time to leave the cock carousel in the Fun Zone. These men without Game tended to try to buy their way into the Fun Zone through gifts, drinks and spending 1000s on PUA boot camps and DVD boxsets.

A new zone is forming owing to the Internet, the "Sugar Zone". This is the sugar daddy thing which is forming somewhere between the Fun Zone and the Husband Zone. Ignoring the harlots on Seeking Arrangement, the majority of the "Sugar babies" there are the "girl next door", the "all American girl", "English and Irish roses" types that men tended to marry young in history.


As I have aged and taken on the panoramic perspective of the Sexual Market Place, the worst position to be in for a man is to be in the Husband Zone waiting for women to leave the Fun Zone to look for Mr Big to marry. These men risk cuckoldry, divorce, alimony servitude - in other words - relegation to the No Go Zone owing to their financial loss and a decline in their youthful looks.

[Green-On-GO]

It doesn't bother me.
I've had women buy me drinks offer me drinks.and they were EE to.I've had Scandinavians ask me for a drink.
I'll just buy when I'm in the flow plus I'm in my 40s.

When I'm bouncing or extracting I pay cabs uber etc.Its always matter of fact.I'm leading I'm in charge I invited or took them.

When I was younger I use to laugh at chicks asking me to buy them a drink.I use to make them know I knew and treat them like a cute little kid tell them good job and reward with a drink.

You can be totally serious and butt hurt or you can just have a good time but I'm not very traditional .

The worse in Oz are men who don't buy you a drink after you have bought them a drink.We are much harsher on other men than chicks.

I don't Tinder but my mates complain about rich independant chicks that don't pay for a fucking thing.
Then you got other chicks cheating who pay for everything.But the money ain't theirs lol.

Also I pay an ex wife every fortnight so some chick out in a pub is not going to bother me unless she takes a third of my wage

[General Stalin]

OP,

The idea stems from the cultural shift over the last several decades where women no longer require monetary resources and financial security from men. They make their own money so let them spend it sort of thing. Most of the time being "old fashioned" as you put it will not win you many favors with the modern woman. The goal here is to be different and buck the trend of being "chivalrous" by footing the bill when you go out. Makes you seem harder to pin down and less of a push over, and sort of puts her in her place as since she is a working woman who "don't need to man" she can certainly pay for her own drinks. Sort of a middle finger to the antiquated expectation that men should be paying the bill.

Now if we are being honest with ourselves here, there is nothing wrong with paying for her shit when you go out. A lot of it comes down to how you do it and how the woman is.

[XXL]

Not paying thing is about flipping the script so to speak. Just like the whole game is. Classic PUAa wanted to mimick very high value men and display behaviors out of thin air that imply that they are the selectors, not women. All game tricks and routines meant to portray that articifial image.

Also PUAs wanted to come off as lovers who get sex through fun (not providers who wine and dine in hopes of getting some). Not paying notion was good way to clearly highlight that they were not courting women at all.

Because we have moved on from this and realized that there are more important dynamics at play beyond certain "moves" it is quite irrelevant now. I mean.. hopefully.

To answer your question.. If you want to pay then pay. No problem. Just do it the right way...

1. Show women that it means nothing to you. Even qhen you run out of cash never sweat it. Act as if you don't care about it (even if you do). It will convey tat you feel secure and confident.

2. Show that you do it for your own fun because YOU want to buy good time for yourself and just include the girl who happens to be with you. Do not do it for her to please her cause ahe will smell it and tou will be automatically put in courting category. So if you buy tickets for some show or concert don't do it cause it's her favorite band as she will sense you're trying to impress her and make her the star of your night. Instead buy tickets for something that you want to see and AFTER you have it offer it to the girl like.. " hey I have tickets for XYZ come with me blablabla..". The same with anything. Want funky icecream? Tell her that you want this epic icecream and ask her if she wants it as well. Get it? You spend it for yourself and she gets perks cause she's there with you.

Questions?

[Incubus]

Cheap PUA? I knew one and he was a good friend of mine and since this thread seems to be about "booze" I'll add some content.

My friend and I would go to a bar/nightclub/lounge, he and I would order a beer and when I was on my 9th beer he was still on his first beer and while I was fighting some other drunk over whatever slight...my friend was working the chicks....I think he spent with the door fee..20 bucks? and always had a super classy chick around him or left the club with later........so lessons learned...drink or fuck but not both...or the trade off drink and fuck fat pigs

FAST FORWARD 100 years.....I travel a lot and I don't drink much when I go out at night (I like to be wide awake at 5 am..usually for trouble)
Women can't handle booze...most know it....but lots of today's adult teenage girls don't and are stumbling around by 2 am

Save your brain cells for quality chicks ...8's 9's or 10's that are mature enough to have a few drinks (if any) when out for the evening ....a FUN guy doesn't need booze to have a good time or be interesting.
AND I wouldn't guarantee "a quality woman" is one that drinks very little... if she always needs to go to the bathroom to do maybe a line of coke. So being alert means limit your alcohol/drug intake.

and yes it takes big balls to pump and dump a 8 9 or 10 chick.....and thinking back ...I had small balls preferring instead the beer and trash (which was more expensive boozing for 2 but zero emotional downside)

[torridon747]

Couldn't have said it better than XXL +1

[dknightbro]

Edit: Already been said above.

[kosko]

You'll go broke chasing pussy. Never a free lunch. The pauper mentality of PUA culture stems from this truth. You can still get good returns in pussy if you learn to be disciplined with your time and your money.

The old saying is that more guys have money versus guys who have game. Going for the money game is stupid when you can literally learn to pick up girls with $0 down and just the commitment of your time to make it happen. It isn't being cheap, it is being smart. Why pay for something you can get for "free" (the time has value, never a free lunch)?

Chasing pussy is resource intensive as you need to devote lots of time and or money to get returns. Once you improve your game you get more effective and efficient to manage both. To me game is a very detailed level of resource management and prioritizing as you become methodical in how to best devote time towards getting the most abundance of women.

This is why you notice young guys who are still in school, or late blooming professionals with bankroll who can afford the time and money sink towards strict learning and practicing of game. The seasoned nature's don't need method approaches to women and they navigate life fine without the need to pick up tools and seek out materials for assistance. But the naturals are cheap as well. Why would the drop tons of cash on pussy? Might as well light your money on fire. Better to spend that money on yourself and or reinvest it into something that becomes much bigger versus sending it into the black hole of pussy.