[Travel Museums]

I Like Money:
Cryptocurrency may be the best investment of all time. I've made good money actively trading on the volatility. But it's become a time consuming headache. I'm being pushed towards a passive investment strategy. But I can't shake the idea of getting in on that one ICO that turns my $1000 into $100milion. Oooh baby.

By the Numbers:
The yearly returns for top cryptocurrencies make them some of the best investments of all time. Bitcoin for example is the best investment for several years running. From a purely numbers perspective there is no doubt this market is worth investing in (probably even for the long term).

No Safety:
Yet this is an entirely new asset class. It lacks infrastructure, security, convenience, etc. There aren't really any solid research and rating agencies. Just a lot of random articles, hype, pundits weighing in with scant understanding. Without decades of past performance, regulations, etc. it's really unclear what might happen at the macro level. You specifically? Get locked out, scammed, or make a mistake? You're SOL. There's no one to help you. Maybe you make that $100million then a hacker steals it...

You Don't Know Shit:
And it wouldn't matter much if you did. If you're a computer scientist you might be able to read the white papers and make some sense of the inherent value of crypto tech. However you're still unlikely to understand the broader worldwide economic factors. Governments are starting to become interested and push regulation. So now we have international political and legal issues to consider. Despite the technological applications crypto still functions like currency. Confidence is what gives it value. And it's actually not THAT widely adopted, yet.

The Headache:
Crypto markets never sleep. Mobile trading leaves you open to hacking and theft. There are frequent trading delays, unclear tax implications, etc. Almost a complete lack of convenient and secure apps. ICOs require a lot of research and you're still mostly sifting through nonsense and hype. The major news media has been covering the cryptomarket. Don't mistake this for serious financial analysis. It's mostly a reaction to the hype.

Life Goals:
My philosophy on work/money is that no amount is worth sacrificing too much of my free time. Especially if it requires processing a ton of new information, unknown risk, stress, etc. I shake my head at fat billionaires who sit behind a desk. I want to be out traveling and having adventures. At least while I'm young.

Cautious Compromise:
Invest a modest amount of your overall portfolio. Only invest what you can afford to lose. Yada Yada. So maybe in a few years you turn $10k into $30k. While this is a fantastic return, is it really worth the risk, time, and stress? Especially if you're already living on a decent passive income and making use of international arbitrage?

Moving Forward:
I don't have the answers to this. I've learned a lot about crypto, but I still only have a layman's grasp. My concerns over security and taxes make me hesitant to do a big move. Yet, looking back on this summer there were a handful of opportunities I could have made millions if I was less conservative.

"If I just invested $1000 in Bitcoin back in 2011 it'd be worth hundreds of millions today." This is unshakeable. But would you have been able to ride out years of flat lining and volatility? Would you have sold out at a $800,000 profit not knowing if it was going to last?

Maybe drawing a modest yearly return and living a decent life off it is better. But how? There are some passive ETF, dividend schemes, etc. starting to come into crypto. Has anyone explored a formula?

[thebassist]

I think it should be simple enough to make enough crypto gains to be able to pull out your initial investment and more, so that whatever happens you won't have 'lost' per se. From that point on, the risk-reward (at least in my opinion) makes the crypto/ICO gain very much worth pursuing, even considering the possibilities of some black swan events that could cause you to lose the value of your crypto investments.

I'm still reasonably new to the cryptosphere, but from observing more experienced investors I think that success comes down to laying down rules to guide your investment strategy- e.g. I've heard of people who have certain rules such as to immediately withdraw 10% of their portfolio, never again to be reinvested in crypto every time they break an order of magnitude in total value.

Maybe it's just naïve thinking, but I really don't think it's that hard to put yourself into a position whereby you'll have made better returns than you would ever have made with traditional investment, even in the absolute worst case scenario for the market, if you stick by certain guidelines along the lines of what I've mentioned before. There's only going to be more and more money flooding into crypto (guaranteed for the next few years), so there is still so much more money to be made. Would be best to use this fortunate period to put yourself into a position whereby if the entire crypto market collapses maybe even two years from now that you'll be set already.

I know that most of the RVF crypto brahs are in on the Chainlink ICO by the way, it definitely seems to be the most solid ICO opportunity right now.

[[email protected]]

Found a rare insightful post on /biz that seems to check out:

Quote:

Buying infrastructure tokens is a far safer bet than single use coins. Instead of gambling on whether a single use coin will succeed, you are gambling on the fact that people will still be investing in and trading cryptocurrencies, which is basically a given.

Any serious long term portfolio should have some level of infrastructure token investment. Consider the following coins and you'll be selling shovels to miners during the gold rush:

>Ark

Decentralised exchange and xbridge. Enthusiastic community

>Blocknet

Possibly the first completely decentralised exchange to be up and running. Low token cap and tx fee buy pressure could make these coins unbelievably valuable

>Komodo/Unity

The Supernet project which is similar to Blocknet. Positive recent announcements

>Kyber

Decentralised exchange at the ICO stage

>0x (ZRX)

Decentralised exchange tx token for the Ethereum ecosystem

>Chain link

ICO stage, connecting external data and APIs to blockchains.

source: http://boards.4chan.org/biz/thread/3499197

[Travel Museums]

I already pulled out my initial investment months ago and still tripled my stake. This has been great. But it's too slow to get me millions.

More importantly foing this was too much work. I had to check price points throughout the day and do an hours research every morning and night. Sometimes I was executing trades on crowded buses going through slums or getting distracted from sightseeing.

Had I just invested passively in LTC and pulled out at the recent peak I'd essentially have the same return minus all the work.

Had I put $1000 in OMGs ICO I'd be a multimillionaire.

This is what I'm getting at.

[[email protected]]

(09-16-2017 03:20 AM)Travel Museums Wrote:  

I already pulled out my initial investment months ago and still tripled my stake. This has been great. But it's too slow to get me millions.

More importantly foing this was too much work. I had to check price points throughout the day and do an hours research every morning and night. Sometimes I was executing trades on crowded buses going through slums or getting distracted from sightseeing.

Had I just invested passively in LTC and pulled out at the recent peak I'd essentially have the same return minus all the work.

Had I put $1000 in OMGs ICO I'd be a multimillionaire.

This is what I'm getting at.

I was one of those people that tried and failed to get 50k USD into OMG ICO. Went through Bitcoin Suisse too.

I could be wrong about this but I think Chainlink (LINK) is the next OMG. Kyber will be big too but I can see this doing 50x like OMG did already

[NewDayNewFace]

Firstly, nice to see the Crypto forum on RooshV. Good signs for Crypto.

BurnerEmail if you invested 50k into OMG at crowdsale you would be a millionaire by now if you aren't. Were you able to get them on the exchanges when they were tradable?? Even if you scooped up 50k once it became tradable you still would've become a millionaire.

[superschalk]

The problem with the recent hyped ICOs like Kyber or Chainlink is that people can't buy as much as they want anymore. You now need to get on to a whitelist and then get a very low individual cap assigned. These caps are often not higher than $3000. The only option to get a bigger position in these ICOs are now pre sales. However it is difficult to find the ICOs in an early stage and determine if they get hyped just before the ICO or not. The other problem with this is that you basically buy tokens quite long ahead of the ICO which effects your cash flow and brings the risk of ETH spikes or drops plus there is an opportunity that the company you invested in the pre sale change their terms just before the ICO (this recently happened at Enigma where they just increased their total tokens which effected the market cap) or in worst case that an ICO never happens.

I still believe that you can make a lot of money with ICOs but it is a risk and a gamble especially if you are buying during the presale. Would be great to hear some more opinions on this topic.

[NewMeta]

The way i see it, bet big or go home.

No risk, no large payout, we are all aware of the risks involved, doesnt mean i wont roll the dice at a chance of not being a wage cuck for the rest of my life.

Sometimes, a man just needs a lambo.

[Ray Carlton]

(09-17-2017 11:01 AM)NewMeta Wrote:  

The way i see it, bet big or go home.

No risk, no large payout, we are all aware of the risks involved, doesnt mean i wont roll the dice at a chance of not being a wage cuck for the rest of my life.

Sometimes, a man just needs a lambo.

I totally agree with you. cryptocurrency can be life-chaning.

But what kind of timeframe are we talking here?
What amount of cash are we talking here?

The equation is naturally simple. If I put in 100k and the coin I invested in multiples by 10, I got a million.

If I only put in $10 dollars, even when it multi-folds by 1000, it's still not game changing.

I think we all get that.

But what timeframe are we talking about?

It seems everybody in the cryptocurrency space expects to be a multi-millionar by tomorrow.

[NewDayNewFace]

If you invested 3k into NEO in January you would be a millionaire now. So you definitely don't need to invest too much to get the big gains. If you do your due diligence on ICO you can make some serious money. ICO's like 0x and Kyber were no brainers to me.

Ray Carlton, if we knew the answers to your questions then all of us would be millionaires fairly soon. But realistically I expect to be a millionaire within a couple years. Crypto hasn't been adapted main stream yet. Once it does I expect Coin Market Cap to be in trillions.

So my advice to anyone here is home the majority of your investments into the main coins. Invest heavily into big ICO that you have done your due diligence in. Once they get on the exchanges sell your original investment in the ICO and put it back to the main coins.

For me my long term holds are LTC, OMG, Golem, 0x, Kyber, and of course BTC.

[NewMeta]

Depends what you are starting out with.

I put in a modest sum into bitcoin when it was worth 300-400 dollars and held until 4k where i turned it into eth. So this is me already a year in the game having 10x what i started with in bitcoin, and now i have much more to play with, so flipping it further to in theory wont take as long. If i went straight into ICOs though it might not have taken as long. However people arent factoring in the situation of how to sell off the coins and cash out, which you also need to consider as it takes time. Your exit strategy involves:

1) Selling off the Alt coin that flipped 50x in a way that doesnt destroy the market before you sell it all off. Many things to consider here, do you get a bot to regulate the orders? Are you keeping an eye on big orders from your competition also attempting to cash out? Do you wait on the hopes that it flips further? What if it crashes mid selling? etc etc...

2) Converting to fiat, alot of the same questions with further restrictions of sell limits. You will need to verify your identity on multiple exchanges to raise your limits, in which case, a process that can take months in the case of Tethers verification queue .

3) Tax implications, what happens when the IRS or equivalent of your country see a mill pop into your account? Have you researched whether you need to pay tax on your gains in the country you withdrew to? Maybe you should open an account in a country with more lax crypto laws where its a big gray area still. This process could also take a couple of months if you are unlucky.


So yeah, its not quick by any measure and you will have obstacles you need to overcome on the way. So maybe start considering it all before you get caught off guard. Time frame in which case could still take in the range of years, as it will likely end up in my case if i ever got that far

[Captain Gh]

(09-17-2017 11:01 AM)NewMeta Wrote:  

The way i see it, bet big or go home.

No risk, no large payout, we are all aware of the risks involved, doesnt mean i wont roll the dice at a chance of not being a wage cuck for the rest of my life.

Sometimes, a man just needs a lambo.

   

You guys are talking about millions... while I just looking for a couple of K's to stash! Damn you guys got me motivated now!

[thebassist]

(09-17-2017 01:46 PM)Captain Gh Wrote:  

You guys are talking about millions... while I just looking for a couple of K's to stash! Damn you guys got me motivated now!

If you make some smart (and lucky) investments you can turn that couple thousand into lambo money much faster than you could imagine. Buddies of mine started off with just small investments into OMG and 0x and are already working with (to me) insane amounts of money just a few short months later.

And just in case anyone feels like making the bubble argument, I should emphasize that we're all (hopefully) aware that we are in an ICO bubble currently, which is why you want to invest in the Apples or Microsofts out there (OMG, Kyber, 0x, etc..) rather than the pets.com (e.g. like fucking digibyte or whatever other shitcoins). That way if things do crash and you're holding bags you can still be confident in the underlying value of your investments in the longer term.

[Travel Museums]

What resources are you using for ICO research? Most crypto news is reactionary. What little else I find is some clueless finance analyst or banking jerkoff peering into his crystal ball.

There's really no reliable analytics out there compared to traditional equities. YouTube videos? Coinmarketcap? I feel like we might as well be firing tarot cards at each other or consulting our horoscopes.

You're clueless unless you're a techie. I'm more than willing to take risk, but I'm not a computer scientist. I really have no way of discerning the bullshit. (I'm assuming most ICO go to the trouble of hiding their lies/shortcoming deep in the code.)

Compare this with my equities portfolio. I have a plethora of analytics at my fingertips. My sales and dividends go straight into an FDIC insured account. The tax law is clear. All I'm really worried about is bad internal accounting or a sector/market downturn. It's totally different.

Something just always seems off with ICOs. I stayed away from OMG because it sounded like text speak. It turned out to be a winner. So I'm thinking well had I not dismissed it out of hand how would I have gotten in on the ICO early enough?

What exchange is the best for getting in early on new coins if you miss out on the ICO? Bittrex?

[CleanSlate]

^ Been asking the same questions for months, and nobody gives a straight answer. Really, no one fucking knows.

[SamuelBRoberts]

(09-18-2017 12:51 AM)Travel Museums Wrote:  

What resources are you using for ICO research? Most crypto news is reactionary. What little else I find is some clueless finance analyst or banking jerkoff peering into his crystal ball.

Whitepaper and team analysis. Look at the team most of anything. You can always go to their slack and talk to them, too. Github committs if applicable. ICOs are a crapshoot, accept that you're taking a risk.

Quote:

There's really no reliable analytics out there compared to traditional equities. YouTube videos? Coinmarketcap? I feel like we might as well be firing tarot cards at each other or consulting our horoscopes.
You're clueless unless you're a techie. I'm more than willing to take risk, but I'm not a computer scientist. I really have no way of discerning the bullshit. (I'm assuming most ICO go to the trouble of hiding their lies/shortcoming deep in the code.)
Compare this with my equities portfolio. I have a plethora of analytics at my fingertips. My sales and dividends go straight into an FDIC insured account. The tax law is clear. All I'm really worried about is bad internal accounting or a sector/market downturn. It's totally different.

Coinmarketcap is useless for ICOs 'cause the coins aren't issued, but you can do a rough valuation of the marketcap by multiplying ICO price x supply (Make sure to use circulating supply not total supply) and compare to similar projects in the space. Youtube has a few good people but honestly you and Cleanslate are probably smarter than most of them, and all the ones on youtube are getting paid to promote.

Quote:

Something just always seems off with ICOs. I stayed away from OMG because it sounded like text speak. It turned out to be a winner. So I'm thinking well had I not dismissed it out of hand how would I have gotten in on the ICO early enough?

OMG was a winner but there are tons and tons of losers. (Look up Airporn or Smoke and Snuggle if you want a laugh.) You're taking a risk for a big payoff.

Quote:

What exchange is the best for getting in early on new coins if you miss out on the ICO? Bittrex?

You can check prices across all exchanges by going to Coinmarketcap and hitting "markets". Don't store anything on shitty exchanges like Liqui.Io, get your money on, make your purchase, and get it off. Be very careful when buying off EtherDelta.


Also LAToken. Look it up.

EDIT: There are so many ICOs out there now that many of them may never even make it to an exchange. Be careful. I'm in Obisidan, Rivetz, and shortly LAToken and probably Chainlink if I can get in. I don't plan on buying anymore past that.

[NewDayNewFace]

You guys are lazy. If you do your research you can better determine if a project is successful. Look a OmiseGo. I wasn't into ico when OmiseGo had their presale but that was a definite.

Check out their team. It's solid and they have Vitalek Buterin as an advisor. That's a no brainer. Also Omise (parent company) is a successful company.

Look at the team before anything. Anyone could have a good idea. It's whether they execute is the question.

ChainLink and Kyber and 0x are no brainer ico. 0x with Fred Ersham as an advisor, Kyber with Buterin as an advisor, ChainLink with Sergey as CEO and Jameson as an advisor.

These are easy layups.

[the-dream]

Is it still possible to get in on the Kyber and 0x ICOs? It seems like they are both over.

[thebassist]

Your window of opportunity for getting into kyber and 0x ICOs are long over.

Zrx is still pretty cheap right now in my opinion, at around 21 cents or so. Pick it up on liqui or poloniex if you like but don't expect your investment to 10x in a month or anything like that. It's definitely a longer term investment with a very high potential upside if decentralized exchanges based on the protocol like radarrelay or ethfinex take off (both are in the works right now).

Kyber tokens will become tradable on the 24th, if you can tolerate the shitty UI and bugginess of etherdelta you can pick some up there but will already be at multiples of ICO price guaranteed. Then again if you expect KNC to 20x in the medium term could be worth it so the decision is up to you.

[Fortis]

I'd like to get on the hype train but the fact that I don't know what is going on with any of the cryptos keeps me out of the pool. I have a strong dislike for investing in things that I do not fully understand.

I'll be checking in on this thread, seems interesting.

[NewDayNewFace]

I'm glad I invested in Kyber, 0x, and Chainlink. Going to be a great September for me. I understand for the majority all of the technology with all three companies. I also know all teams are all stars. It's like the Warriors and Cavaliers of Crypto for this month and last.

[superschalk]

I am going to participate in the ICON presale tomorrow. Although there whole ICO management is a mess. And their tokens will be locked till November. So if ETH is mooning you are basically sitting on locked up ICON tokens while you could take ETH profits.

Chainlink ICO is also handled quite intransparent. Their token sale is suppose to start tomorrow but they have not made any details public.

I also applied for the whitelist for the Wanchain ICO. This could be a good one although it is hyped by Ian Balina and I usually stay away from the ICOs he is hyping.

As for Kyber I only got a very small amount in the token sale. Will buy some on Ehterdelta when it gets tradable. If you use Methamask with a private node Etherdelta works pretty well. Otherwise be careful with it.

I noticed over the past few days that ICOs are not guaranteed moneymakers. Many hyped ICOs have flopped for example Propy or also Aventus is not looking great. Everything seems to depend if these coins are getting added to the bigger exchanges. But what I was reading in several Slack channels is that some exchanges getting more and more selective what coins they are listing.

I would also recommend to follow Vitalik Buterin on Twitter. If he mentions an ICO there or if he is an advisor in an ICO you can be pretty sure that this coin will moon.

[NewDayNewFace]

(09-18-2017 10:17 AM)superschalk Wrote:  

I am going to participate in the ICON presale tomorrow. Although there whole ICO management is a mess. And their tokens will be locked till November. So if ETH is mooning you are basically sitting on locked up ICON tokens while you could take ETH profits.

Chainlink ICO is also handled quite intransparent. Their token sale is suppose to start tomorrow but they have not made any details public.

I also applied for the whitelist for the Wanchain ICO. This could be a good one although it is hyped by Ian Balina and I usually stay away from the ICOs he is hyping.

As for Kyber I only got a very small amount in the token sale. Will buy some on Ehterdelta when it gets tradable. If you use Methamask with a private node Etherdelta works pretty well. Otherwise be careful with it.

I noticed over the past few days that ICOs are not guaranteed moneymakers. Many hyped ICOs have flopped for example Propy or also Aventus is not looking great. Everything seems to depend if these coins are getting added to the bigger exchanges. But what I was reading in several Slack channels is that some exchanges getting more and more selective what coins they are listing.

I would also recommend to follow Vitalik Buterin on Twitter. If he mentions an ICO there or if he is an advisor in an ICO you can be pretty sure that this coin will moon.

Aventus and Propy were hyped but I didn't think either one had an all star team if you asked me. Theres a clear difference between the Propy and Aventus of the worlds and Kybers and 0x and Chainlink. I'm only investing in slam-dunks.

ChainLinks incognito style is kinda of worrisome but I'm sure they'll do fine.
Im unsure about ICON because I'm not trying to have tokens locked for months. Not my type of party.

Agreed with the Buterin comment. He is like the Lebron James of Crypto. Anything he touches will be gold. I wish I was into crypto when OmiseGo had their presale. I would be a wealthy man if I did.

How much Kyber did you get? I hope you invested max. I even got all my friend to invest in Kyber. That's an automatic Win. Debating if I want to hold immediately or flip it and reenter at a lower price.

[Bill Brasky]

(09-17-2017 01:19 PM)NewDayNewFace Wrote:  

If you invested 3k into NEO in January you would be a millionaire now. So you definitely don't need to invest too much to get the big gains. If you do your due diligence on ICO you can make some serious money. ICO's like 0x and Kyber were no brainers to me.

Ray Carlton, if we knew the answers to your questions then all of us would be millionaires fairly soon. But realistically I expect to be a millionaire within a couple years. Crypto hasn't been adapted main stream yet. Once it does I expect Coin Market Cap to be in trillions.

So my advice to anyone here is home the majority of your investments into the main coins. Invest heavily into big ICO that you have done your due diligence in. Once they get on the exchanges sell your original investment in the ICO and put it back to the main coins.

For me my long term holds are LTC, OMG, Golem, 0x, Kyber, and of course BTC.

From my understanding, doesn't Kyber render 0x and even exchanges (centralized and decentralized) obsolete. The only reason I can see one holding 0x AND kyber is if kyber somehow can't deliver on what it says it will be able to do.

[Bill Brasky]

(09-18-2017 11:13 AM)NewDayNewFace Wrote:  

(09-18-2017 10:17 AM)superschalk Wrote:  

I am going to participate in the ICON presale tomorrow. Although there whole ICO management is a mess. And their tokens will be locked till November. So if ETH is mooning you are basically sitting on locked up ICON tokens while you could take ETH profits.

Chainlink ICO is also handled quite intransparent. Their token sale is suppose to start tomorrow but they have not made any details public.

I also applied for the whitelist for the Wanchain ICO. This could be a good one although it is hyped by Ian Balina and I usually stay away from the ICOs he is hyping.

As for Kyber I only got a very small amount in the token sale. Will buy some on Ehterdelta when it gets tradable. If you use Methamask with a private node Etherdelta works pretty well. Otherwise be careful with it.

I noticed over the past few days that ICOs are not guaranteed moneymakers. Many hyped ICOs have flopped for example Propy or also Aventus is not looking great. Everything seems to depend if these coins are getting added to the bigger exchanges. But what I was reading in several Slack channels is that some exchanges getting more and more selective what coins they are listing.

I would also recommend to follow Vitalik Buterin on Twitter. If he mentions an ICO there or if he is an advisor in an ICO you can be pretty sure that this coin will moon.

Aventus and Propy were hyped but I didn't think either one had an all star team if you asked me. Theres a clear difference between the Propy and Aventus of the worlds and Kybers and 0x and Chainlink. I'm only investing in slam-dunks.

ChainLinks incognito style is kinda of worrisome but I'm sure they'll do fine.
Im unsure about ICON because I'm not trying to have tokens locked for months. Not my type of party.

Agreed with the Buterin comment. He is like the Lebron James of Crypto. Anything he touches will be gold. I wish I was into crypto when OmiseGo had their presale. I would be a wealthy man if I did.

How much Kyber did you get? I hope you invested max. I even got all my friend to invest in Kyber. That's an automatic Win. Debating if I want to hold immediately or flip it and reenter at a lower price.

I don't know how I missed the Kyber ICO. I would let it hit the exchanges for the inevitable dump and then buy as low as possible. I don't think it will dump a lot as there are incentives to hodl but I know it will dump at first as everyone that bought in is thinking they will dump high and rebuy.