[Robert High Hawk]

(06-13-2017 03:52 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

(06-13-2017 03:42 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  

The problems Puerto Rico is experiencing are largely and mostly due to their own poor decision making.

No. It's cultural. And politics is downstream of culture.

(06-13-2017 01:10 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  

Also, I am in strong favor of independence for Puerto Rico, executed responsibly and amicably, while retaining strong ties to USA.

Why? And what specifically do you have in mind? Is this of some value to the US?

Funny you say that. RooshV himself just had an article where he argued that it's the opposite. I would tend to agree with him since Puerto Rico's culture has been increasingly corrupted by the worst aspects of materialism and vapidity. Just as we see huge debt problems now in the US, by the way. Either way this particular point we may never agree on and I'm happy to respectfully disagree.

As for my statement, like it or not, Puerto Rico has been a US territory longer than certain states have existed. There are more Puerto Ricans in the USA than there are in Puerto Rico. The Puerto Rican legal and judicial code is the same as the US as well as a host of other similarities. Puerto Rican participation in the Armed Forces is significant, and to my knowledge they serve quite well - that deficit alone would not be made up easily since the Armed forces are already struggling to fill with qualified candidates.

I think granting increasing sovereignty to Puerto Rico, such that the state gets less and less affiliated legally, but not economically (assuming it's actually a free/fair trade setup, not based on aid), as well as maintaining a Military presence there with Puerto Ricans being able to serve, would be a good way to maintain relations.

That plan may be totally wrong, but it's some sort of idea on how to move forward. Danny Alberta also laid out a pretty good set of steps. I sincerely welcome differing well thought out opinions on this matter.

[Robert High Hawk]

(06-13-2017 03:43 PM)DannyAlberta Wrote:  

Robert high Hawk, I appreciate your points.

One thing I think you misunderstand is that I am by no means suggesting the United States should force independence on PR. That would be more disastrous than giving them state-hood at this point. PR is currently receiving US Federal assistance to the tune of $20B in order to help with its debt default and other social spending. The loss of the US dollar alone as the currency would be catastrophic for what remains of the island's struggling economy.

Moreover, the people of PR are recognized as US citizens and therefore have certain rights, including mobility rights to the mainland. Disenfranchising them of those rights would require both the Untied States and PR to agree in a referendum (where hopefully more than 1/3 of the people show up to vote). I doubt the US could do so of its own volition, even by an act of Congress.

PR is a US Territory. It has been for a long time. It should remain so at this point. My arguments against admission to the Union as a state don't require a change to that status quo. Assuming PR can clean up its mess a bit (with no small help from the United States), it may qualify for statehood one day. It may even decide to strike out on its own. But it is capable of neither right now.

Again, just a Canadian with an outside opinion.

I am pro independence but agree with what you said, for not the best way is to keep status quo and right the ship, then have some serious dialogue. Like so many problems in the US right now this, this is turning very reactionary, and a real viable plan is not coming forward, so we just continue on this awful spiral downwards and then it doesn't matter weather or not Puerto Rico becomes a state because they'll all emigrate to the USA by then anyway.

The best short term solution that will keep Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico (thereby reducing the democratic vote), and make Puerto Ricans more content with their lives and less likely to vote for statehood, is by improving the lives of Puerto Ricans and not trying to make them culturally assimilate with the US.

[Robert High Hawk]

(06-13-2017 03:08 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

Quote:

And yes PR does have its own Olympic team. So did Hong Kong under the British and now under China. All territories do. What is your point?

Two relevant points here:

1. Puerto Ricans, despite being part of the United States, have divided loyalties. They see themselves first as Puerto Ricans, only later as Americans. By contrast, Americans from the mainland see themselves first as Americans rather than identifying principally with their state. This is similar to what we see with naturalized immigrants who root for their home countries when they play against the US.

2. Puerto Ricans want to get the advantages of association with the US without the disadvantages. Having your own Olympic team obviously falls in this category.

By the way, while the island is ostensibly bilingual, levels of proficiency in English are low in reality. In many ways, Puerto Rico is more similar to the rest of Latin American than the mainland US.

One quick last add:

1. Your first point is not very valid. For the notion of Federalism this isn't such an alien idea. If you read "Lone Survivor" Marcus Littrell makes it very clear that his first loyalty is to Texas, then the United States. Many people in Texas are like this.

But I kind of see your point. The Olympic team argument doesn't have much substance behind it though. I guarantee you that if every state could have their own national team, just like Puerto Ricans they would put together some kind of hoopla every 4 years, purely in the realm of sports, and leave it there just for that.

Interesting fact: Puerto Rico has won or finalled in the Miss World and Miss Universe pageant more per capita than any other country in the world. Let's remember what's important here!!!

[beta_plus]

(06-13-2017 03:48 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

It was a mistake to keep Puerto Rico in the 1950's as a territory and we should cut them loose with bribes even if necessary.

All we would have had to say later was "Whatever the USSR is offering, we'll double it."

We had the money to do that back then.

[TheOllam]

Puerto Rico is strategically significant given real regional issues in Haiti, Cuba and Venezuela. There's no way U.S. interests would drop this hot potato. But it's only cheaper to keep PR if we fix the problems.

The territory does need structural financial reform. Puerto Rico bonds provide tax free interest to owners, and the debt is constitutionally guaranteed by the government, allowing massive growth towards this un-payable amount today.

The investors that continued to fund the debt faced real default risk and it has come true. I estimate the noise for statehood being generated by monied NY interests that have the most institutional cash to lose on PR default.

Let's change the tax status on PR bonds and start finding fresh sources capital for investment in the island. There's a better way than this old bond program spawned out of the last century's demands.

[Duke Castile]

(06-13-2017 03:42 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  

(06-13-2017 02:40 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Robert High Hawk,

To me all of your points seem like "but it's not our fault".

I remain completely unpersuaded by the perpetual victimhood excuse.

The cold hard fact is, people get the govt and leaders they deserve.

I wrote:

"I am NOT excusing Puerto Rican poor decision making, nor am I out to vicitimize them"

Not sure what else to say, but I'll make it perfectly clear: The problems Puerto Rico is experiencing are largely and mostly due to their own poor decision making. The government management of Puerto Rico is retarded, and the people who elected them to power are perhaps deliberately ignorant.

You seem to be projecting some view point I simply don't have. Where did I say that Puerto Ricans don't deserve the govt or leaders they have now? Where did I say that they are victims?

I said is there is a history of economic suppression by predatory regulations that have handicapped Puerto Rico's economic potential.

If you disagree that that was never the case, and that Jones Act and forced high minimum wage have not adversely affected the economy and contributed to it's current state, please expand on that - and I mean that sincerely as I am curious to learn the different arguments on this topic.

"The cold hard fact is, people get the govt and leaders they deserve" - too bad that was not applied in the first half of the last century where they people wanted independence. It's just strange that was not valid then, yet there's no productive and realistic discussion about what to do about the situation now.

Your words were "Puerto Rico never had a chance". Sounds like victimhood to me.

You seem to tell everyone they are "projecting".

You keep arguing for statehood while saying you are not pro statehood.

Finally regarding your last comment, it's obvious PR's didn't deserve independence.

[BostonBMW]

(06-13-2017 01:10 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  

Before one judges me as a PR apologist, I want to first state unequivocally that I whole heartedly agree with the points laid out by Fisto and the article mentioned by Tokyo Joe.

Danny Alberta in particular laid out some very relevant facts about Puerto Rico.

Also, I am in strong favor of independence for Puerto Rico, executed responsibly and amicably, while retaining strong ties to USA.

That being said, this "fuck them" attitude is rather ignorant. Puerto Rico and the USA did not magically appear in this situation yesterday - Surprise surprise. It takes two to tango. Some history and context is in order:

1. Puerto Rico never, at any point, voluntarily joined the United States of America. There is little to no intrinsic national and cultural heritage to the US.

2. Puerto Rico would have GLADLY gotten independence had they been able to do so, right up until the 1950s. Let me say that again: most Puerto Ricans wanted to leave the USA, but the USA would not let them. So frankly now that sentiment has reversed, this "kick em out!" rhetoric is rather hallow and utterly meaningless.

3. In response to a growing nationalist movement, which culminated in an armed March on Congress and an the attempted assasination of Eisenhower, the USA's response was to severely and brutally suppress the Puerto Rican national movement, and placate the Puerto Ricans by dumping massive amounts of welfare on the Island (in addition to testing Agent Orange on the island, but that's a story for another day...). This created a ridiculous welfare state that exists today. The USA was scared shitless of another Cuba emerging, and did not let Puerto Rico become more independant and basically bribed the people into submission. Think of the mindset this cultivates over 3 generations now. Related...

4. Since it's existence, Puerto Rico has been crushed by bullshit federal regulation designed to protect American business interests. The Jones act requires any vessel inbound or outbound from Puerto Rico to stop on a mainland port first. That immediately makes foreign imports to Puerto Rico more expensive, as well as kills a huge source of revenue from transit cargo ships. This alone would have a huge positive impact on PRs economy. Why does it still exist? Bullshit Business lobbyists are preventing it from doing so. Some estimates are that PR loses BILLIONS because of this.
Another quick example is sugar. Puerto Rico used to be a mega sugar producer. Now they make hardly any. Why? Sugar subsidies to mainland farmers. Aside from the jobs lost, the industrial technical knowledge, workmanship, and work culture associated with this labor intensive industry is gone.
Finally on this point, and this is something that all RVF should agree with, congress MANDATED Puerto Rico raise it's minimum wage to the federal level. Puerto Rico never had an economy as robust or rich as the mainland, so now the minimum wage being too high just killed a lot of jobs, or simply grew the informal economy. Puerto Rico never wanted any of this.

Before we talk about how "screwed up" Puerto Rico/Puerto Ricans are, let's take an honest look at what is heavily contributing to it: Never even having a fighting chance.

One could argue that the USA made up for it by giving welfare, benefits etc... but that only created the dependency mindset you see today.

5. Relative to Latin and Central America, Puerto Rico has one of the highest per capita GDPs, even if you remove federal/state employment. Not saying it's some economic paradise, but it's certainly got potential.

6. The admittedly over-funded University system is probably one of the best in Latin/Central America, and even competitive with USA universities. USA recruiters are now flocking into PR to scoop up teachers, doctors etc... since they know they can higher them cheap. This only drains the PR talent and tax base and lowers wages in the US. Lose Lose.

7. The Puerto Rican economy is bad, for sure, but those stats do not tell the full story. There is a very large informal economy that exists, and while it's not accounted for, people still do things and work in PR, they just don't give their slice to the Man, since they know the gov is corrupt. Puerto Ricans (in general) are absolute suckers for materialistic Bullshit they see in Malls and Walmart. It's disgusting and sad, but my point is that these places in Puerto Rico are packed and doing record profit, so the money must be coming from somewhere.

7. Puerto Rico still has a strong, patriarchal and traditional culture (Abortion is illegal and so is gay marriage in PR). There is "poverty" in the statistical sense, but the standard of living for people is really not so bad, since family structure and community still exists and people take care of each other. It's sad to see fast food chains becoming so popular there, but in the rural areas people seem incredibly fit and simply don't age.

- Alright I'm kind of droning on at this point, but hopefully this serves to slightly educate people that this awful situation is at least substantially the making of the US. Again, I am NOT excusing Puerto Rican poor decision making, nor am I out to vicitimize them. There are real and easy things that the USA could do to re-invigorate the Puerto Rican economy that would bring Puerto Ricans back to Puerto Rico and help them get out of debt. I suspect that won't happen, because at this point corporations are LOVING all the new cheap "American" labor that Puerto Rico provides.

Puerto Rico is a great place worth looking into for relocation, despite the doomsday news, it's one of the nicest places I've ever been to. Particularly if you are interested in developing agriculture, there is tremendous opportunity there.

PS: @BostonBMW you are incorrect about the PR Flag. It's a historically Spanish derived flag. If you look at the flags of Puerto Rico, Cuba, and Catalonia, they all have the same design.

*** FIN ***

I was referring to the red, white, and blue color scheme along with the stars and stripes identical to the U.S. flag:

   

However since we're getting technical and calling each other out, lets review:

You are wrong about the Spanish origins of the current Puerto Rican Flag. It was attributed to the Puerto Rican Revolutionary Committee in New York City.

From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Puerto_Rico

In 1952, Governor Luis Muñoz Marín and his administration adopted the Puerto Rican flag which was originally designed in 1892, and proclaimed it the official flag of Puerto Rico. The official adaptation of the flag has been interpreted by some as a ploy by Muñoz Marin to neutralize the independence movement in his own party. There were some differences between the original flag of 1892 and the one of 1952 and the meaning of the colors was officially changed. Now the white bars stood for the republican form of government, rather than representing the victory and peace that Puerto Ricans were supposed to have after gaining independence. The sky-blue of the triangle in the original flag was changed to dark blue, resembling that of the flag of the United States, to keep it distanced from its revolutionary roots. For nationalist leader Pedro Albizu Campos, having the flag represent the government was a desecration, while the independence party accused the government of "corrupting beloved symbols".

Don't trust Wikipedia? Go directly to the source and check (I have): "Luis Muñoz Marín: Puerto Rico's Democratic Revolution" Published by Editorial UPR, 2006

So lets get the facts straight: The official Puerto Rican flag is a derivative of the United States Flag.

[BostonBMW]

(06-13-2017 01:10 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  

Before one judges me as a PR apologist, I want to first state unequivocally that I whole heartedly agree with the points laid out by Fisto and the article mentioned by Tokyo Joe.

Danny Alberta in particular laid out some very relevant facts about Puerto Rico.

Also, I am in strong favor of independence for Puerto Rico, executed responsibly and amicably, while retaining strong ties to USA.

That being said, this "fuck them" attitude is rather ignorant. Puerto Rico and the USA did not magically appear in this situation yesterday - Surprise surprise. It takes two to tango. Some history and context is in order:

1. Puerto Rico never, at any point, voluntarily joined the United States of America. There is little to no intrinsic national and cultural heritage to the US.

2. Puerto Rico would have GLADLY gotten independence had they been able to do so, right up until the 1950s. Let me say that again: most Puerto Ricans wanted to leave the USA, but the USA would not let them. So frankly now that sentiment has reversed, this "kick em out!" rhetoric is rather hallow and utterly meaningless.

3. In response to a growing nationalist movement, which culminated in an armed March on Congress and an the attempted assasination of Eisenhower, the USA's response was to severely and brutally suppress the Puerto Rican national movement, and placate the Puerto Ricans by dumping massive amounts of welfare on the Island (in addition to testing Agent Orange on the island, but that's a story for another day...). This created a ridiculous welfare state that exists today. The USA was scared shitless of another Cuba emerging, and did not let Puerto Rico become more independant and basically bribed the people into submission. Think of the mindset this cultivates over 3 generations now. Related...

4. Since it's existence, Puerto Rico has been crushed by bullshit federal regulation designed to protect American business interests. The Jones act requires any vessel inbound or outbound from Puerto Rico to stop on a mainland port first. That immediately makes foreign imports to Puerto Rico more expensive, as well as kills a huge source of revenue from transit cargo ships. This alone would have a huge positive impact on PRs economy. Why does it still exist? Bullshit Business lobbyists are preventing it from doing so. Some estimates are that PR loses BILLIONS because of this.
Another quick example is sugar. Puerto Rico used to be a mega sugar producer. Now they make hardly any. Why? Sugar subsidies to mainland farmers. Aside from the jobs lost, the industrial technical knowledge, workmanship, and work culture associated with this labor intensive industry is gone.
Finally on this point, and this is something that all RVF should agree with, congress MANDATED Puerto Rico raise it's minimum wage to the federal level. Puerto Rico never had an economy as robust or rich as the mainland, so now the minimum wage being too high just killed a lot of jobs, or simply grew the informal economy. Puerto Rico never wanted any of this.

Before we talk about how "screwed up" Puerto Rico/Puerto Ricans are, let's take an honest look at what is heavily contributing to it: Never even having a fighting chance.

One could argue that the USA made up for it by giving welfare, benefits etc... but that only created the dependency mindset you see today.

5. Relative to Latin and Central America, Puerto Rico has one of the highest per capita GDPs, even if you remove federal/state employment. Not saying it's some economic paradise, but it's certainly got potential.

6. The admittedly over-funded University system is probably one of the best in Latin/Central America, and even competitive with USA universities. USA recruiters are now flocking into PR to scoop up teachers, doctors etc... since they know they can higher them cheap. This only drains the PR talent and tax base and lowers wages in the US. Lose Lose.

7. The Puerto Rican economy is bad, for sure, but those stats do not tell the full story. There is a very large informal economy that exists, and while it's not accounted for, people still do things and work in PR, they just don't give their slice to the Man, since they know the gov is corrupt. Puerto Ricans (in general) are absolute suckers for materialistic Bullshit they see in Malls and Walmart. It's disgusting and sad, but my point is that these places in Puerto Rico are packed and doing record profit, so the money must be coming from somewhere.

7. Puerto Rico still has a strong, patriarchal and traditional culture (Abortion is illegal and so is gay marriage in PR). There is "poverty" in the statistical sense, but the standard of living for people is really not so bad, since family structure and community still exists and people take care of each other. It's sad to see fast food chains becoming so popular there, but in the rural areas people seem incredibly fit and simply don't age.

- Alright I'm kind of droning on at this point, but hopefully this serves to slightly educate people that this awful situation is at least substantially the making of the US. Again, I am NOT excusing Puerto Rican poor decision making, nor am I out to vicitimize them. There are real and easy things that the USA could do to re-invigorate the Puerto Rican economy that would bring Puerto Ricans back to Puerto Rico and help them get out of debt. I suspect that won't happen, because at this point corporations are LOVING all the new cheap "American" labor that Puerto Rico provides.

Puerto Rico is a great place worth looking into for relocation, despite the doomsday news, it's one of the nicest places I've ever been to. Particularly if you are interested in developing agriculture, there is tremendous opportunity there.

PS: @BostonBMW you are incorrect about the PR Flag. It's a historically Spanish derived flag. If you look at the flags of Puerto Rico, Cuba, and Catalonia, they all have the same design.

*** FIN ***

Your condescending "education" is based on the same anti-colonialist diatribes that have littered academia in the Post War period. Nothing original here. Sure, you shrewdly attempt to hedge your comments by stating that you support Independence for PR yet the bulk of your arguments are standard fare apologist. So, I'll take a different tack - Lets say we concede all your arguments about the big bad colonist U.S. royally exploiting Puerto Rico and it's economy (once the 'beacon' of the Caribbean). However that very same United States granted Ricans full citizenship and mobility to the United States. Surely, as the first Hispanic origin group to be legally allowed into the United States, Puerto Riquenos would have a leg up on other, later arriving immigrants from Central and South America? Surely, their legal status, affirmative action preferences would translate into a seamless societal/economic integration into the United States:

In 1990 the relative condition of Puerto Ricans had improved somewhat, but they still had the highest poverty rate of any group on the mainland, and an unemployment rate higher than that of Mexicans, Cubans, and other Hispanics, though not quite as high as that of Blacks. Island-based Puerto-Ricans were worse off than mainland groups by every measure.

In 1990, mainland Puerto Rican income was 66 percent the level observed among non-Hispanic Whites, but by 2008 had risen to 69 percent. Relative to Cubans, the highest-income Hispanic group, mainland Puerto Rican incomes rose from 75 percent to 91 percent. During this period, poverty also fell considerably for mainland Puerto Ricans, though they still had one of the highest rates among groups examined here.

Unemployment fell for mainland Puerto Ricans from 1990 to 2008, both absolutely and relative to non-Hispanic Whites. However, the decrease in unemployment was not as dramatic as that for some other groups, such as Mexicans, whose rate dropped 2 percentage points from 7 percent to 5 percent.

Source: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Censu...-paper.pdf

I can share other sources if the census bureau is tainted in some manner.

So what are the new set of excuses for the Puertoriquenos in the United States? Racism? Whitey keeping them down even vis-a-vis other Hispanic groups?

I stand by my earlier statement that Puerto Rico combines the worst of low achievement and an undeserved sense of American style entitlement. Other Central and South American/Hispanic migrant groups have achieved more socioeconomically while facing greater challenges with respect to immigration, societal acceptance (See Nuyoricans), and language barriers.

So lets get real here, Puerto Rico is a net negative for the United States.

[Robert High Hawk]

Well this discussion has become quite spirited!

First off, @Fisto, and @El Flaco, I would like to apologize for using and retract the term "projecting". That's condescending psychobabble, and it was in poor form to use it. "Mischaracterizing my argument" would have been better.

Now to address the points at hand.

@Fisto, you dismiss my entire argument, picked out a single line, and ignored the outright and direct primary fault I subscribe concerning, as well as my concurrence with the facts stated by the majority of posters.

That is your choice to do so, however I can only disagree at this point. Let's take the particular line you singled out of context to dismiss my argument: ""Puerto Rico never had a chance". I said that in the context of deleterious government policies imposed on the island that keep it from it's economic potential. Is this not a point that regardless of one's political opinion, is worth acknowledging has exacerbated poor governance? Puerto Rico will never be on par with the US.
If you want to go into some of the insane PR government policies and facts, happy to do so. It would be a long read, but my sense was that most readers here are interested specifically in how this situation relates to the USA.
Also, you clearly don't want Puerto Rico to be a state (neither do I), yet you said that PR didn't "deserve" independence in 1950. What is your point here? Are you pro-Puerto Rican Independence or not? Or only now but not back then? If so why?

My argument is that it takes two to tango in any dysfunctional relationship, and we should write the ship, get Puerto Rico off of welfare/subsidies, remove economic handicaps and then slowly grant greater autonomy in the direction of Independence.

Again, heartily welcome other serious courses of action here for a substantive discussion how to fix this, rather than focusing on who is a victim and who is not. If I came across as condescending, my bad. Let's hopefully move forward in a productive direction.

@Boston BMW

You are ascribing things to me that I never said. Did I ever say that Puerto Rico is not a net drain on the USA? Did I ever say Puerto Ricans as a whole are some magical minority group that is great for America? What exactly are you talking about here?

As for being anti-colonialist, Puerto Rico has ALWAYS been a Colony, so I think you are characterizing my tact. I had the audacity to mention faulty US policy that has exacerbated an already lesser achieving economy in Puerto Rico, and has increased migration from the mainland as well as handicapped the Puerto Rican economy. Did I ever claim Puerto Rico would be equal to the US or worthy of statehood otherwise?

A great way to discourage Puerto Ricans out of the continental US would be to find a realistic way to improve the situation there. I don't think US culture and Puerto Rican (latin) culture is very compatible, and whatever steps we can do to preserve and strengthen both separately, starting with poor policy reformation, by BOTH the US and Puerto Rico, would go a long way. Please (sincerely) don't read into that statement more than just what it says.

Finally regarding the flag thing, I think a minor color tweek vs an entire design does not make the PR flag derivative of the US flag. It's derivative of Spanish flags, with a US inspired color. Fair?

I sincerely hope we can get some substantive ideas on how to move forward realistically. Too many potential Miss World and Miss Universes are at stake here, as well as some pretty outstanding Salsa music.

[BostonBMW]

Robert High Hawk,

Your comments are in bold:

@Boston BMW

You are ascribing things to me that I never said. Did I ever say that Puerto Rico is not a net drain on the USA? Did I ever say Puerto Ricans as a whole are some magical minority group that is great for America? What exactly are you talking about here?

Again, if you read through the thread, the main point of discussion is about how the addition of the Puerto Rico as a state. I argue that Ricans (both in the Mainland and on the Island) detract from the United States. This was before your diatribe against the policies of the United States being cause PR's economic malaise. Comprende?

As for being anti-colonialist, Puerto Rico has ALWAYS been a Colony, so I think you are characterizing my tact. I had the audacity to mention faulty US policy that has exacerbated an already lesser achieving economy in Puerto Rico, and has increased migration from the mainland as well as handicapped the Puerto Rican economy. Did I ever claim Puerto Rico would be equal to the US or worthy of statehood otherwise?


PR has been a Commonwealth not a colony in legal terms. Puerto Ricans are not subjects of the U.S. -- they enjoy full citizenship rights and free mobility. You followed the stock academic/liberal argument that Colonies have been exploited by the Imperial power (U.S.) – even if we accept your argument, I ask what have the Puerto Ricans achieved collectively once they arrived in the Mainland, with significantly more economic opportunities? They remained laggards even among later arriving Hispanic migrant groups. Therefore, I question the veracity of your argument that the policies of the United States are primarily and directly at fault for the Puerto Rico’s economic woes. Did American policies impact PR negatively? Sure. However the primary cause is linked to poor/corrupt governance and the societal shadow markets outside of government purview.

A great way to discourage Puerto Ricans out of the continental US would be to find a realistic way to improve the situation there. I don't think US culture and Puerto Rican (latin) culture is very compatible, and whatever steps we can do to preserve and strengthen both separately, starting with poor policy reformation, by BOTH the US and Puerto Rico, would go a long way. Please (sincerely) don't read into that statement more than just what it says.

While I agree with the spirit of your statement, I forward a different approach. We cannot be tasked with “improving” the situation there any longer. We should be devolving power to PR with the eventual planning for their independence. United States involvement in PR has yielded nothing but criticisms from the left/anti-colonialists such as yourself, therefore, we need to do the right thing and let PR become independent so that they can self-govern, make decisions to improve their country. Most of all, this dependency relationship needs to end.


Finally regarding the flag thing, I think a minor color tweek vs an entire design does not make the PR flag derivative of the US flag. It's derivative of Spanish flags, with a US inspired color. Fair?

I presented evidence backing up my assertions, where’s your evidence or is this pure conjecture? The flag of PR is a variant of the U.S. flag and not too dissimilar to flag of Ohio. By your logic, are you also going to claim the flag of Ohio is also a derivative of Spanish Flags?

   

You can keep stubbornly sticking to your unsupported claims, however the reality is starkly different.

I sincerely hope we can get some substantive ideas on how to move forward realistically. Too many potential Miss World and Miss Universes are at stake here, as well as some pretty outstanding Salsa music.

The way forward is for the United States to increase home rule and most importantly, local responsibility to the Puerto Rican people and the officials they elect. Eventually the commonwealth status needs to come to an end. The relationship with PR should evolve into the relationship that we have with Liberia.

Also, I’ll be fact checking some of your earlier claims as time permits.

[Robert High Hawk]

BostonBMW,

Thank you for your response. To reply with your cut statements bolded:


Therefore, I question the veracity of your argument that the policies of the United States are primarily and directly at fault for the Puerto Rico’s economic woes. Did American policies impact PR negatively? Sure. However the primary cause is linked to poor/corrupt governance and the societal shadow markets outside of government purview.

You are again grossly exagerating what I have said several times. Here's what I wrote to Fisto when he too, said I was mostly blaming the USA for Puerto Rico.
"Not sure what else to say, but I'll make it perfectly clear: The problems Puerto Rico is experiencing are largely and mostly due to their own poor decision making. The government management of Puerto Rico is retarded, and the people who elected them to power are perhaps deliberately ignorant."

You are painting a rather broad brush of this leftist/anticolonialist accusation, not that I particularly care since it's patently false, but I should at least make note of it.

We cannot be tasked with “improving” the situation there any longer. We should be devolving power to PR with the eventual planning for their independence. United States involvement in PR has yielded nothing but criticisms from the left/anti-colonialists such as yourself, therefore, we need to do the right thing and let PR become independent so that they can self-govern, make decisions to improve their country. Most of all, this dependency relationship needs to end.

I said something incredibly similar in my orignal post: that the US government through massive welfare subsidies encouraged a culture of dependency, and that this was bad and a factor in the screwed up situation today. So what exactly is your disagreement again? This is what I wrote specifically "we should write (sic) the ship, get Puerto Rico off of welfare/subsidies, remove economic handicaps and then slowly grant greater autonomy in the direction of Independence." - if you think that sounds leftist or even anti-colonial, we have a fundamental disagreement on some basic definitions.

So I make a post, point out anti-capitalist actions that helped screw up Puerto Rico (while fully acknowledging Puerto Rico's own fault in this situation), recommending removing said leftist impositions, and then you say I'm a leftist and anti-colonialist. Not sure what else to say at this point but it feels like I'm going around in circles.

If you can find an country with 3-4 million people who have won or finaled in more Miss World/Miss Universe pageants, please let me know. Per capita they would be quite high.

And FINALLY... the great flag debate:

   
      

The Cuban and Puerto Rican flag in particular are EXACTLY the same, just opposite colors. (I uploaded from two different sources so it looks a bit different in the post, but I assure the dimensions are exactly the same).

Was Cuba's flag derived from the US too? To compare the Ohio flag is just reaching at this point. You said the Puerto Rican flag was derived from the US flag. It's clearly not.

[BostonBMW]

Robert High Hawk,

I appreciate the follow-up. Response in similar formats:

You are again grossly exagerating what I have said several times. Here's what I wrote to Fisto when he too, said I was mostly blaming the USA for Puerto Rico.
"Not sure what else to say, but I'll make it perfectly clear: The problems Puerto Rico is experiencing are largely and mostly due to their own poor decision making. The government management of Puerto Rico is retarded, and the people who elected them to power are perhaps deliberately ignorant."

You are painting a rather broad brush of this leftist/anticolonialist accusation, not that I particularly care since it's patently false, but I should at least make note of it.

So we’re in agreement then. Puerto Rico and its residents are largely responsible for their own economic circumstances. The poor economic result of the contemporary period is a result of low achievement and an undeserved sense of entitlement among Puertoriquenos both on the Island and in the Mainland.

I said something incredibly similar in my orignal post: that the US government through massive welfare subsidies encouraged a culture of dependency, and that this was bad and a factor in the screwed up situation today. So what exactly is your disagreement again? This is what I wrote specifically "we should write (sic) the ship, get Puerto Rico off of welfare/subsidies, remove economic handicaps and then slowly grant greater autonomy in the direction of Independence." - if you think that sounds leftist or even anti-colonial, we have a fundamental disagreement on some basic definitions.

So I make a post, point out anti-capitalist actions that helped screw up Puerto Rico (while fully acknowledging Puerto Rico's own fault in this situation), recommending removing said leftist impositions, and then you say I'm a leftist and anti-colonialist. Not sure what else to say at this point but it feels like I'm going around in circles.

The main issue with your post is the condescending tone in providing a compendium of complaints against the United States and it’s actions in a perceived attempt to shift the blame for PR’s economic situation towards the United States, while retaining a hedge in that very same post. Later on, you decide to expand on that original hedge (I, too, am against Statehood and towards pro-independence) to align with the prevalent position in the thread, which is: PR should in no way be added as the 51st State and the Commonwealth and it’s people are primarily responsible for their current economic state. If you compare your initial post and compare it with later posts which progressively (heh) conform to the main position, then you’ll have your answer of why you’re being challenged here.

I will agree that we exhausted this discussion with your eventual agreement with the dominant position.

The Cuban and Puerto Rican flag in particular are EXACTLY the same, just opposite colors. (I uploaded from two different sources so it looks a bit different in the post, but I assure the dimensions are exactly the same).

Was Cuba's flag derived from the US too? To compare the Ohio flag is just reaching at this point. You said the Puerto Rican flag was derived from the US flag. It's clearly not.


Again, you need to read my post 57 and verify the sources which clearly state: resembling that of the flag of the United States, to keep it distanced from its revolutionary roots.

How is comparing to Ohio’s flag reaching when both Ohio and Puerto Rico are linked to the United States?

As for the Cuban flag, I wasn’t going to engage, but I am actually enjoying proving you wrong at each turn. How about we read up on the History of the Cuban flag:

After fighting for the Spanish Crown against the rebel armies of Venezuela, Narciso López moved from his native Caracas to Havana, Cuba. His involvement in anticolonial movements forced him to be banished. In 1849 he moved to New York City, where he continued to fight for the rights to be an independent Cuban.

The three blue stripes represent the three departments in which Cuba was divided at that time, the white purity of ideals, the light; the red triangle, originating from the French Revolution – and the three ideals of liberty, equality and fraternity: red for the blood and the courage; the star was the new state that should be added to the United States.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Cuba

I suggest that you drop the Puerto Rican, Cuban flag matters by admitting that you have been factually and utterly wrong in each and every instance. The Flag of Cuba (since we’re expanding the discussion) has a significant United States connection as well.

So please don’t waste any more of my time on this matter and accept that you are wrong about the origins of the Cuban, Puerto Rican flags.

[Yatagan]

This place should've been cut loose a loooong time ago.

[Robert High Hawk]

BBMW,

You wrote:

The main issue with your post is the condescending tone in providing a compendium of complaints against the United States and it’s actions in a perceived attempt to shift the blame for PR’s economic situation towards the United States

Lets go back to my post.

Several high ranking and ostensibly conservative members "liked" my post. Did they see any attempt to shift blame or leftist dribble? I wrote that there was a dysfunctional relationship between the US and Puerto Rico, and for many aspects the US certainly had a big role in creating the issues today with Puerto Rico, starting with not granting them independence when they should have.

I pointed out harmful anti-capitalist policies that handicap Puerto Rico's economic potential.

You said that was leftist and "standard fare apologist". How exactly? Do you support these policies or not?

Aside from the flag issue, you choose not to give attention to any of these original point because you don't want to discuss any kind of complicity the USA has had in the problems facing Puerto Rico. You can do that while keeping the appropriate blame on the Puerto Ricans. Who exactly is having a victim mentality here?

If one of your main problems with my post was that it was "condescending", I humbly request you demonstrate some more emotional resiliency to get at the points listed, which you have yet to do (aside from the flag issue). With such charming quips as "Comprende?" to emphasize your imaginary interpretation of my original post, who exactly is condescending here? As we say here in Germany: Das geht nichts....

Finally, I admit being wrong on the flag. Poor research on my part. It would not be nice to get this thread back to substantive conversation about Puerto Rico.

[ElFlaco]

(06-15-2017 03:29 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  

It would be nice to get this thread back to substantive conversation about Puerto Rico.

Is there really a need for more 'substantive conversation'? The situation can be summed up succinctly:

1. Puerto Rico's a mess. See Stefan Molyneux video above.

2. For this reason, the US should separate from Puerto Rico as much as possible. Statehood, hell no. We don't need to fix Puerto Rico's problems or make them ours.

[BostonBMW]

(06-15-2017 04:06 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

(06-15-2017 03:29 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  

It would be nice to get this thread back to substantive conversation about Puerto Rico.

Is there really a need for more 'substantive conversation'? The situation can be summed up succinctly:

1. Puerto Rico's a mess. See Stefan Molyneux video above.

2. For this reason, the US should separate from Puerto Rico as much as possible. Statehood, hell no. We don't need to fix Puerto Rico's problems or make them ours.

You sum it up well. I am not even bothering to respond to RobertHighHawk as he is clearly looking to get the last word.

Further adding to your comments: If the United States attempts to "fix" PR's problems, we will get none of the credit and all of the blame if things go wrong. Academics, Leftists will deride American "colonialist" policies in extracting value/benefits out of a struggling Island economy, the cost to the U.S. taxpayers will be exceptional, and this will not quell Puertoriqueno nationalist eventual desire for independence. We lose in most scenarios.

[WanderingSoul]

When making any political decision, there should only be one question.

Is this good for America and Americans?

If the answer is no, as in this case, then it shouldn't be done. End of story.

Cut PR loose.

(06-13-2017 04:53 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  

Puerto Rican participation in the Armed Forces is significant, and to my knowledge they serve quite well - that deficit alone would not be made up easily since the Armed forces are already struggling to fill with qualified candidates.

It would be easy to make up.

Take the $20B of AMERICAN tax payers money we currently send to the Puerto Ricans, who have no business getting it go begin with, and put it into veterans services, higher pay, better retirement, health care, signing bonuses, etc.

American tax dollars should go to Americans and veterans way before it ever leaves our soil to begin with.