[Australia Sucks]

Hi guys, I am potentially (not 100% sure yet) interested in buying a property in Chile within the next one or two years. I posted my question on a Chile expat forum but they were not helpful so I will post the specifics of my question here:

I have been to Colombia and Peru and spent one day on the way back from Peru in Santiago (due to transit). I was impressed by how modern and clean Santiago was and how good the public transport was, how many young people speak English and how friendly the locals were (not too mention how beautiful the young women were). I have never been to a place where people were as friendly to me as Santiago (Bogota came close though). Just FYI I speak a small amount of Spanish.

I am interested in eventually having a property in South or Central America. Given that Chile is known for being the most developed and stable Latin American country, and given the natural beauty of Chile and the friendliness of the locals I am interested in potentially making that future purchase in Chile. Within the next year or two I will make a 6 to 8 week trip to travel around Chile and see the country properly before I make any decision to buy anything. The property would be a holiday house/investment with the possibility of converting it into a full time residence down the track (if this does not happen I am still happy to keep it as a holiday/part-time residence).

I have looked a bit on the internet but noticed that the selection of properties on the internet in Chile is limited.

I just want some pointers from forum members on what towns/cities (and what areas within those towns and cities) I should look at so I can put them on my list to investigate/visit when I finally get round to visiting Chile, because obviously in 6 or 8 weeks I cannot see every town and city in the country.

My criteria are as follows:

-I would prefer to buy a land or house instead of an apartment.
-I want to spend no more than $110,000 USD including transaction costs.
-The size of the property does not necessarily have to be big (although it can be) and the house does not have to be luxurious. A good location is more important.
-I prefer a location that has reasonable market liquidity so I can sell the property within a few months if necessary.
-I want a location that has good capital growth (price appreciation) prospects over the long-term.
-I prefer a location with at least some level of basic infrastructure (i.e. not too remote) such as some roads, restaurants, buses, etc.
-I want a property/location with good rental demand so I can rent out the property easily if need be.
-I prefer a location that is not too cold (at least the daytime temperature) in winter, in case I decide to live their in winter (I do not like overly cold weather)
-I prefer to be near (up to 3km away is fine) a very nice and beautiful beach with warm water. I live close to some fabulous beaches in Sydney, Australia so I am not impressed by any old beach. It must be a nice beach!! Also from what I read a lot of beaches in Chile have cold water due to the Humboldt current. The beaches way up north seem to have decent summer water temperatures. I strongly prefer a beautiful beach with warm water (around 20 degrees Celsius water temperature in summer is sufficient). If not then my second choice would be to be close to or in a another beautiful natural environment such as a hot spring, waterfall, lake, mountains, national park, lagoon, etc As a third option I would also consider being in a relatively (within 30 minutes commute by public transport) central location in Santiago or in another major city.

So if you all have any ideas which towns/cities I should focus on/explore please list them along with a brief explanation of why they are worthy of consideration. Also if what I am asking is unrealistic let me know.

Thanks, everyone

[Australia Sucks]

I would be especially keen to hear from those living in Chile.

[Tail Gunner]

Live and Invest Overseas has a report on the beach town of La Serena, Chile. They are fairly astute when it comes to identifying up-and-coming areas in the path of development. You might give that a look. Simon Black is also high on Chile. You may wish to peruse his articles.

Just do not be taken in by all the hype. The current President of Chile is member of the Socialist Party of Chile. Chile has a long history of socialist policies and regimes counterbalance by the conservative ruling families that will not allow their wealth to be confiscated. If this is a long-term move, perform your due diligence. Best of luck.

http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/spe...ay/crr/t2/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Serena,_Chile

https://www.sovereignman.com/lifestyle-d...rld-16927/

[bacon]

It is foolish to buy property in another country, in a culture which language you do not even speak yet, without having lived there for many years. It is not like Australia where you can accurately measure the value of a property against another. You will likely get ripped off on your purchase price without having an extensive knowledge of the local market. Additionally, if you need to sell the property you might find that to be very difficult and longer than you could imagine.

You should look at what rents costs and do that from looking in local Spanish speaking ads and by walking around neighborhoods you want to live in. What you will find is that renting abroad is almost always the best decision in large part because rental prices are much easier to compare to what a local is paying.

[Australia Sucks]

Tail Gunner, from what I can see the water temperature of La Serena is a bit cold. I am looking for a beach area that is not too cold to swim in.

[Australia Sucks]

I see that Antofagasta has decent water temperatures in summer and reasonable beaches, plus based on the GDP per capita and the city/population size its one of the more developed places in Chile. Is it a good place to consider? Any downsides?

Bacon you have a point. Do you think its possible to overcome the lack of knowledge by using a well reputed company/agency/service based in Chile (but run by foreigners) that acts as a buyers agent, etc to help find a suitable property in Chile? Or is that a recipe for getting the Gringo price?

[GlobalMan]

AS, I recommend you read through the forum at AllChile.net

There is a ton of info there and many people there have done what you're talking about. You will get a lot more useful replies there.

Antofagasta is a very isolated city with its economy based on mining. It's not really a place tourists flock to, besides those who are local to it. Vina Del Mar is a nice beach city, but is dead in the winter months. Valparaiso has tourists year round more so, might be a decent option. Really though you'll be better off sticking to Santiago if you are trying to make money. Despite having a long ass coastline, Chile does not really have any impressive beaches honestly, at least not in the sense you mean.

Having said that, what you're looking to do can be quite complicated, even in the relatively developed Chile. In many ways, there is the same bullshit hassles as Argentina, same red tape, etc. I know a guy that is in the process of selling his condo that he purchased to rent out on AirBnb (and live in part time). After a few years it was just too much of a problem for a variety of reasons. And he had lived in South America for decade and speaks perfect Spanish.

I'm not trying to piss on your parade, it's just that I think people have bought into hype about Chile that was never completely true in the first place but is even less so now. In 2014 the socialists came back into power and a lot of the incentives and positives about Chile have slowly begun to erode. Various bloggers and newsletters still like to pump it, but it is not some land of the free and small government paradise that it is sold as.

Like I said, go read the AllChile forum and make this post over there, those people will be able to tell you whats what really quickly and you'll have a better idea whether this is something you want to do, and if so, how.

[Australia Sucks]

Global Man I posted on AllChile.net but the people who replied just gave me bullshit/smart-ass replies and accused me of being a troll. Vina Del Mar and Val Paraiso have nice scenery but the water temperature is too cold to be pleasant for swimming. I am not looking for a world class beach, just something decent. Have you been to Chile before?

I am not saying Chile is perfect but if you are going to own property in Latin America Chile is probably the least risky place to do it right? Or do you think there are other countries that are better?

Chilean stock market:

https://tradingeconomics.com/chile/stock-market

The fact that the stock market in Chile is breaking into all time new highs in Chile (whilst inflation remains low) is perhaps one indication that the markets are not too worried about the socialist government in power due to the wealthy and middle classes not allowing the government to push the country into extreme socialism (although like most countries a slow gradual creep into increased socialism is inevitable).

[GlobalMan]

(06-02-2017 02:21 AM)Australia Sucks Wrote:  

Global Man I posted on Allchile but the people who replied just gave me bullshit replies and accused me of being a troll. Vina Del Mar and Val Paraiso have nice scenery but the water temperature is too cold to be pleasant for swimming.

Yeah it can be a tough place, it's a small group and they can be kinda jaded and dickish to newbies.

If year round warm water and nice sandy beaches is your main sticking point then you simply have the wrong country. Chile has a more rugged coastline.

You are too far below the equator for the water you want, and Chile just doesn't have many great sandy beaches, and the ones that do exist are in relatively isolated areas.

If you are stuck on beaches, go elsewhere. Peru has a couple options, otherwise you can look at Uruguay (which I would never buy in) or Southern Brazil.

[Australia Sucks]

Given beaches are out of the picture in Chile what about something near a nice mountain, national park, hot springs, lake, etc? Or is it too cold or isolated (or difficult to sell a property) in those places?

Failing that is it possible to get a very small old house in a somewhat decent (middle class) area of Santiago that is a 30 minute train commute or less to the centre for around $100,000 to $120,000 USD? Or do I need to up the budget

[bacon]

Australia Sucks using a gringo agency is not gonna resolve the issue of buying an overpriced property. Just because you both speak the same language/similar culture doesn't mean he isn't gonna try to get the highest price to make the biggest commission and say whatever needs to be said to make you comfortable about buying a property.

Personally, I will never buy property in a foreign country. I have been an expat for many years and I have found renting to be by far the best option.

All of these are real possibilities and things you should consider before you buy property in a developing/foreign country.

-You take a vacation and return to find a squatter living in your home and now under local law it is their legal residence due to laws which protect squatters.

-A neighbor who sells drugs/engages in criminal activity or holds crazy house parties til 5 am.

-Problems with a stalker ex girlfriend or a neighbor who has threatened to hurt you and knows where you live.

-Unbearably loud construction starts up down the street which takes place at very early hours of the day and will last for months-years until it is finished.

-You realize you want to live in another part of the city after you get a better lay of the land in the city you are in.

-You decide you are unhappy with the country after sticking it out for a few years and want to try something new.

-You circumstances change and you are better off increasing or decreasing the size of the home you are living in.

-The visa laws change which makes staying in the country difficult for foreigners/non citizens.

If it were me, I would invest the 120k in a solid dividend stock like AT&T or for real estate exposure in a low cost real estate ETF to the collect the 4-5% dividend/distribution. That 500-or so dollars a month would allow you to rent a decent place. In Chile 80-90 percent of locals would earn below 1000 dollars a month in wages so by default apartment/house rental prices will not be so high.

[GlobalMan]

Yes, Chile has some of the better metrics on paper, what I'm saying is that doing business there is not as easy at it is made out, and doubly so as a gringo.

Thousands of other gringos said "but look at the stock markets" and do you want to bet where they are now?

Chile is nice place for sure, and does give you a little easier time than some neighbors as far as buying property or getting residence visa, but you need to keep in mind that an easier time than some neighbors isn't saying much.

I say go and check it out, talk to a lawyer who has experience in foreigners purchasing property (you will 100% need one eventually anyway) and get an idea of what is involved.

Then, be prepared for half of what the lawyer says to be wrong when you go down to file papers numerous times, or for one clerk to tell you that you need X and another clerk the day before said you didn't. That's just life in these places. You need to be prepared with time and money to make something like this work, it is not something you fly in on Monday and leave on Thursday to complete. Nor to maintain.

I have said similar in other threads about doing business/buying property in places like Colombia/Thailand etc and dudes cry foul and insist it is all amazing, but none of them have actually tried to do business locally or buy property or buy a car locally etc. It is a whole different ballgame than swooping in for some pussy and thinking its just a great time easy peasy.

Even though AllChile can be dicks you should still read through whatever you can find there, there are threads of people asking the same things you can learn from.

But besides all that, I don't know why you have settled on Chile if you are stuck on beautiful beaches and warm water, it just isn't that.

[Australia Sucks]

Bacon I would prefer to have at least a modest portion of my assets offshore to partially protect against creditors, divorce, changes in Australian government tax or other policies, currency risk, etc plus it would give me a second bolthole to go to if things go to shit in Australia one day (I am expecting to live maybe another 50 years so it could possibly happen). I could either do that by owning real estate or a business or shares in another country.

I prefer to look at middle income countries. The countries that are not rich (because worthwhile real estate is too expensive) but are not poor either and have decent rule of law, respect for private property and foreign property ownership, reasonable tax systems, etc Countries like Chile, possibly Argentina, Estonia, Czech Republic, Croatia, etc fit the description of the types of countries I would be looking at. Stable countries that are not absurdly expensive yet and still have quality women/lifestyle.

Global man I would not do business in Chile or any foreign country. Too much headache. A pad would just be for investment and for chilling out, studying the language, a base to travel and to game girls, etc, i.e. investment plus leisure, with no business or employment aspect involved. Yeah it would be a pain the ass to do business there. My point about the stock market was simply that Chile is not about to become the next Venezuala or even Brazil anytime soon.

Global Man, I realize that other Latin countries have nicer beaches but I prefer the stability of Chile. Like I said beach was my first thought but since that is not a good idea in Chile I am happy to consider mountains, lakes, Santiago, etc I am flexible on location as long as its a nice place overall.

Yeah I plan to still get stuck in there and read up on the AllChile forum. I appreciate the sage advice guys.

Global man how much time did you spend in Chile? Would $120,000 USD get me a small old house less than 30 minutes commute by train from the center of Santiago in a middle class suburb?

[GlobalMan]

AS, I took a look over there and they were being a little dickish as usual, but also they were telling the truth.

It can be hard to believe for someone who hasn't researched the country but yes, even though Chile has one of the longest coastlines in the world there are basically no great beaches/beach cities, that's just the facts.

Chile is the inverse of, say, the Canadian/Southern Alaska coastline down to Southern California. Except Chile's Southern California (the North) is not as nice and sandy, is quite barren and is widely uninhabited.

[Australia Sucks]

GlobalMan, where would you recommend as a nice/pleasant place to own a house or apartment that you could chill out and smash bitches, but that would also be easy to rent out, easy to re-sell, has good capital growth prospects, etc. Is it only Santiago or are their other places too? I feel that cities like Vina Del Mar and val Paraiso I am paying the same or nearly the same price as Santiago for a beach city where the beach is too cold to swim in, so I might as well just buy in Santiago right? Or is there some super amazing mountain city or town next to a national park, Lake, etc that I should be looking at?

[GlobalMan]

As far as Santiago, $120 might be tight for a house. I haven't looked in a few years now. At that time $120 wouldn't get you a decent house in a place you'd want to live. A condo closer to the center is doable for that.

And yes, I would stick to Santiago.

[Australia Sucks]

Thanks man. That's what this forum is all about. Guys helping each other out with solid advice.Like I said I am not rushing to buy anything right now I just want an idea of what is possible, what to look for, how much to invest, etc before I can start making a long-term plan.

Global Man what about a house close to a train station a bit further out from the center? Is it doable for $150,000 USD? Because I would rather compromise on location a bit and buy a house then buy an apartment in the bets location.

Reasons being:
-In a still somewhat poor country like Chile dealing with the Strata/Body corporate of an apartment will be a massive pain in the ass. Particularly if I am overseas. Unless its a high end building owned by rich people none of the unit owners will want to spend the money to maintain the building properly so it will get run down and have all sorts of problems and maintenance issues. Not to mention the complex regulations of body corporate, the fact that the rules could change against air-bnb, etc.
-Supply and demand. They can and will knock more houses down to build more apartments, but empty land to build houses anywhere within a reasonable distance of the city center is virtually non-existent in a city like Santiago, hence you will get more capital gain in the long-run on a house then you will on an apartment. On top of the classic argument that when you buy a house you get more land and less building for your dollars and the building component depreciates over time. Like the old sayings "the value is in the land", "buildings depreciate", "the land price takes the gain", etc.
-More freedom/control to renovate/extend, etc the building if I own a house.

If I can get a 100 square meter 2 bedroom semi-detached house a 30 minute commute by train from the center in an okay middle class suburb for $140,000 USD I would be happy.

[GlobalMan]

I was going to say Las Condes neighborhood, but after looking you're not going to get anything for $120 there.

What you're asking for is hours of research that you yourself need to do. I can tell you some places to go, but I don't know the current pricing in those areas so that is useless. You need to look at what you can afford first.

-Find some real estate sites and start looking at the prices
-Save the ones that meet your budget
-Then, google the neighborhood
-Read and see if you'd like it, do Google image search, do Google street view, do Google maps to see where it sits in relation to the other neighborhoods that you should know are cool by your previous research

You have to have at least a base amount of info that you've gathered online.

For example this:

(06-02-2017 03:19 AM)Australia Sucks Wrote:  

Or is there some super amazing mountain city or town next to a national park, Lake, etc that I should be looking at?

Why not look at Google maps, spot the larger cities in the mountains (there aren't many), then look them up? It will lead you to forums, wikipedia, images etc and you'll quickly find answers to these questions about them. Or even a cursory look at Lonely Planet will tell you what the main attractions are, then go from there.

You are asking guys to summarize a country for you and outline the cities in each geographical category, and then tell you prices.

[GlobalMan]

(06-02-2017 03:29 AM)Australia Sucks Wrote:  

Global Man what about a house close to a train station a bit further out from the center? Is it doable for $150,000 USD? Because I would rather compromise on location a bit and buy a house then buy an apartment in the bets location.

If I can get a 100 square meter 2 bedroom semi-detached house a 30 minute commute by train from the center in an okay middle class suburb for $140,000 USD I would be happy.

You need to start looking up prices yourself and then see where they sit on the map and metro line. I don't know the housing values in various areas off the top of my head, you can find these answers on your own.

[Australia Sucks]

Global Man what are the best real estate websites to check Santiago property?

I looked at a few websites, but most of them hardly have any houses listed (its mostly apartments) so its hard to get a good idea of whats going on for houses.

[GlobalMan]

(06-02-2017 03:54 AM)Australia Sucks Wrote:  

Global Man what are the best real estate websites to check Santiago property?

AS, I'm starting to understand why AllChile turned against you man

This is the best I've found and what I used when I was looking: http://www.portalinmobiliario.com/
It is Spanish, so if you don't speak Spanish you'll need to run it through google translate or use Chrome with auto translate.

[BoiBoi]

I worked in Chile and my former boss bought property there. He wanted to buy an apartment in Santiago. Never did it because accroding to him, prices are higher than in Munich right now (most expensive housing market in Germany). He bought some land in the Vina region though. You have to know Spanish to do so. He showed me the contracts. They are quite a headache. Why anybody wants to buy something in a shitty city like Santiago is beyond me anyway.

When buying an apartment/ a house in Chile, keep in mind that it's an earthquake-ridden country. When a strong enough quake hits a building, it can destroy the steel beam within the structure. You won't see it from the outside, though, because they fix the cracks up nicely. The next quake will then destroy it and you are fucked. (My boss's wife is a Chilean arquitect and told me this).

Additionally, after the last big one (2010), they increased the building standards. Hence, you should buy something built afterwards.

As for buying something in Antofagasta or the North in general. Unless you love the dessert, don't do it. It's so fucking hot and you'll be in the middle of nowhere. Antofagasta is also one of the most expensive places in Chile.

[Australia Sucks]

BoiBoi I am curious where in Chile did you work and how long did you live there? Where do you live now?

BoiBoi, there are so many things wrong with what you wrote.

-Firstly why do you think Santiago is a shit-hole? For a city of its size the air quality/pollution is not too bad and the trains and buses are quite good. There are mountains, lots of nice parks and heaps of universities overflowing with attractive and friendly (they like foreigners too) young women, many of whom speak some English. Not too mention the climate (at least during the day) is pretty good for most of the year (yes the winter is pretty fucking cold). It's not a world class city but overall its pleasant. Plus if you drive a few hours from Santiago there are places to go skiing, mountains you can hike, different beaches, etc. Not to mention that it has a major international airport with direct flights to a lot of different places in the world.

-Firstly Santiago more expensive than Munich? Is the guy who said that on crack. For $150,000 USD you can get a decent one bedroom apartment in the center (or other nice area) of Santiago. In Munich a decent one bedroom apartment of a similar size in a central or other good location is between $300,000 and $400,000 Euros. So Munich is at least double the price of Santiago.

-"You have to know Spanish to do so. He showed me the contracts. They are quite a headache." Few foreigners even the ones that speak decent Spanish have good enough Spanish to navigate a complex legal document. That is why there are solicitors, etc that specialize in doing deals (including document translation) to settle purchases/sales of property by foreigners. You just have to find one with a good reputation.

-"When buying an apartment/ a house in Chile, keep in mind that it's an earthquake-ridden country." Building inspections, coupled with checking the earthquake ratings/specifications on the properties, coupled with the right earthquake insurance as well as help from a qualified solicitor or buyers agent will help resolve this issue. Thanks for the tip about buying newer constructed properties.

-"As for buying something in Antofagasta or the North in general. Unless you love the dessert, don't do it. It's so fucking hot and you'll be in the middle of nowhere. Antofagasta is also one of the most expensive places in Chile."

I am not sure where you live but for me I (I live in Sydney which can get quite hot in summer) I would hardly call Antofagasta hot. You can see in the link below the average monthly temperature is quite stable and does not get above the mid 20s degrees Celsius range.

https://weather-and-climate.com/average-...asta,Chile

I am sure you get the odd day here or there which is really hot but where I live (Sydney) is hotter so it isn't a problem for me.

-As for the price on a like for like basis it appears similar to Santiago, its one of the more expensive places in Chile. But you can still get a decent apartment there for $100,000 to $150,000 USD in a central/good location.

[GlobalMan]

AS,

It seems you are forming opinions based largely on things you've read, or that you are assuming. You are talking about all the great things you can do a few hours drive from Santiago but just a few posts ago you are asking if there's any good cities in the mountains. You're talking about beaches a short drive away but you just learned (and were in disbelief on AllChile) that Chile doesn't have many beaches to speak of at all. You were looking for year round warm water when Chile is thousands of miles away from the equator with cold Pacific waters.

-IMO, Santiago does not have an "abundance" of attractive girls and "many who speak English". In fact it has very a medicore quality of girls compared to its neighbors, and the better girls are tougher to crack than most other places in South America, requiring social circle and time.

-Santiago isn't exactly cheap, at least relative to the rest of S.A. And it can be quite expensive in the decent areas, on par with some larger cities in Europe and U.S. Most products- clothes, electronics, etc are relatively expensive.

-Getting anything done in Chile as far as officialdom or services is usually a headache, much more so than back home. Nothing is straightforward like you are used to in Aus. Yes, you get a lawyer and that'll help, but it's still not as simple as you imagine. As I said above, the government workers change requirements arbitrarily, make up rules on the fly etc. It could go well, or it could be hell. It literally depends on which day you go and which worker you talk to. There is no consistency. That's just how it is in Chile, as in the rest of Latin America. It's something you have to be prepared for. Workers, especially gov workers, give very few shits. You can't just go in thinking you have it in the bag.

-You have no idea about the varying levels of incompetence and lack of standard procedure in buying agents, inspectors, lawyers etc. Again- this is not Australia. It doesn't work like that. People will frequently just make up shit to tell you what you want to hear. Si, si. Sometimes it works out, other times you're fucked. You can call the internet provider and they'll say yes you can get service. Then after you move in you find out that no, in fact, you can't, so no internet. This has happened to someone I know. You don't seem to have a great understanding of how the Latin American culture works (or doesn't). Yes Chile is more developed, but
it is still very far from being efficient or providing decent service.

-Antofagasta is not a desirable place to live, it's as simple as that. If you are still stuck on sandy beaches and warm water, again, you are looking at the wrong country

I urge you to look deeper into the details of what is involved in buying and maintaining a property in Chile. I am not saying not to do it, but I think you're way too confident with very little information. You are asking elementary questions or don't know basic things about the place in one moment, but then you turn around and are listing off glossy brochure bullet points on why its all great. It doesn't add up.

Taking a vacation is different thing entirely to buying property and everything that goes along with that.

[RawGod]

I recommend spending as much time in Chile as possible over the next couple of years and then revisiting the question.