[Fortis]

(05-15-2017 07:05 AM)zatara Wrote:  

A few questions:

- What were your test levels before you started?
- Is there any reason you aren't getting regular labs done? The cost is definitely worth it, given your materials aren't from a legit source. Its a small price to make sure everything is OK.
- Are you worried about infertility?
- Why are you bothering with the dbol at all? Without wanting to be too negative - at 5ft8/160lbs I can only presume you had no real history of serious weightlifting. And the sides from it are fairly serious. You should be able to maintain a decent body composition quite easily at your desired weight of 170lbs without it.

Hope that doesn't come across too negative, but I was just wondering about the above. Aside from that, everything I know about TRT basically makes it out to be a wonder of modern medicine, that most men should consider going on. But thats usually for men in their late 30s or older, 28 seems very young to be committing yourself to a lifetime of drug supplementation.

Good on you telling the 21 year old to stay away from it for what its worth, too. I think with the increased awareness of the benefits of TRT for older guys these days a lot of young men are hopping on it way too soon, taking it incorrectly/irresponsibly, and doing themselves serious long term damage.

I came back in the 300-400 range when I decided to go on.

I get labs done 1-2 times a year. My bloodwork came back fine a few months ago.

Your post doesn't come across as negative really, mostly just presumptive, but it is fine.

Again, I made this decision for myself after doing research.

I was not healthy for most of my life due to bad lifestyle choices:

Heavy drinking, illicit drug-use, poor diet, minimal exercise, bad sleeping habits and a multitude of other things I won't bother listing out.

At 25 I sought to change and began to eat right, lift heavily and all those other things. I gained a decent amount of weight (from 135-150 pounds) but mostly stuck at around at an aesthetic 150 pounds. That said, I looked pretty good at that weight.

I am naturally fine boned and don't hold muscle or fat very well. I spend 3 years going to the gym 4+ times a week and benefited immensely.

Yu guys seem to be caught up on TRT for lifting and musclebuilding purposes when I already said that the main reason I'm on TRT is because my testosterone levels were abysmally-low when I went on and I was suffering mentally from the effects of low testosterone. now that My levels are back at the high natural level iI feel better, look better and have way higher QOL.

Beyond a certain point I see no need for me to put on much weight. If I stay at 160 pounds leans, I'm fine with that. It's really the least of my concerns when it comes to my overall appearance and lifestyle.

Sure, some guys will say "FORTIS, you're cheating, you should have just kept lifting, dieting and blah blah blah blah" but I did my research and arrived at the conclusion that TRT was the best possible option for me. Was it right? I think so, but we will see. Either way, I don't regret my decisions and I intend to keep moving forward.

Yes a healthy 27-year-old male should probably be able to be 170 pounds at 5'8 lean relatively easily (body-type pending and all of that). I was not healthy for much of my life and it definitely fucked up my hormone levels.

I've been taking dbol for nearly 6 months out of the year and I have experienced 0 serious side affects. No itchy nips, minimal bloating and nothing that would point to liver damage.

I would not suggest that someone go on Dbol if they don't want to, but I really like the 2 weeks on, 2 weeks of split that I am on.


Not really worried about infertility but if it happens it happens. I knew what I was signing up for when I stuck that first needle into myself.

I did not make this thread to try and appear to be some authority, I simply made it to state what I have been through and what I have experienced with TRT.

Edit: missed a couple of questions.

[Cobra]

I'm going to start considering this after a visit to the doctor. I'm hitting 39 and there's I've been in a "steady eddy" mode for a while now. Great post Fortis. I'm glad to see you develop so much over the years.

[Kratomite]

Fortis, thanks for the detailed replies.

Are you taking HCG to keep your testes functioning? That seems to be the recommended add on IF you want to have kids later on, or come off trt. Otherwise you're basically shutting down your balls for the foreseeable future.

[Fortis]

(05-15-2017 08:09 AM)Kratomite Wrote:  

Fortis, thanks for the detailed replies.

Are you taking HCG to keep your testes functioning? That seems to be the recommended add on IF you want to have kids later on, or come off trt. Otherwise you're basically shutting down your balls for the foreseeable future.

Good question.

I've read mixed things about HCG.

Some dudes swear by it; some dudes say it worthless.

I'm ultimately just not interested in adding new things to my regimen at this juncture. I wouldn't speak for or against it.

[zatara]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Props for making the thread too, its an interesting topic for a lot of guys on the forum I'd say. If my post came off as presumptive then sorry, I'm just a bit older than you and have a decent bit of experience in the area and wrote it in a bit of a rush. I've seen a lot of young guys in their 20s fuck themselves up by taking test/SARMs/other things irresponsibly so when I hear of anyone relatively young doing it then the immediate assumption in my mind is a bit negative/worried.

If your test was that low then going on TRT was definitely a good decision though, just for general lifestyle as much as bodybuilding - as you discuss. It does sound like you've done plenty of research on the topic and are doing it properly, so thats great to hear.

Long-term Dbol use would worry me slightly though, and as I said would seem a bit unnecessary for your goals. Have you tried doing 6-9 months free of it, just to see how well you maintain now that you're on TRT? It should be a lot easier for you to stay at 170 than it would have been prior to being on the TRT. With your test restored to natural/high levels that should be a very easy weight to maintain with a decent lifting routine and diet. I know you say you've experienced no negative sides, but the key addendum to that is probably yet. Facial aging and hair loss will hit eventually, even if you keep your liver clean.

Have you considered freezing some sperm? It might be a good investment. Its fairly easy to say "I never want kids" in your 20s, but I think that changes for a lot of guys in their 30s.

(05-15-2017 07:26 AM)MikeS Wrote:  

I'm 40 and certainly not adverse to the idea of TRT, but even at my age (and the thing is that for every decade that passes I still don't feel old, aside from some of my joints getting a bit creaky and injury prone the last few years) I still have a hard time with the lifetime aspect of the equation.
If it was a tablet of not uncommonly prescribed medication in stock at most pharmacies, that I was certain any doctor would continue prescribing once I had an official diagnosis, sure. But at this time there still seems to be too much uncertainty about TRT (and I'm just speaking about the logistics here) for my taste. Is it actually possible to come off this and not be in worse condition than before you started treatment?
Maybe when I'm 45 or 50.

Yeah, the lifetime subscription aspect is a huge issue for me too. I know enough about TRT to not question the health benefits for guys as they age, but I think for anyone who lives a location mobile lifestyle it could be quite problematic. I wouldn't like to have my job/lifestyle prospects limited to only countries where I could procure TRT, at least until my test drops low enough that its absolutely necessary.

Plus the fact it limits even your medium length (2-4 weeks long) holiday travel so much if you're taking it illegally with no prescription. I wouldn't fancy trying to explain to airport security in say Singapore or Australia (or anywhere else strict) why I've got a load of testosterone and syringes in my bag with no prescription.

[Fortis]

(05-15-2017 09:52 AM)zatara Wrote:  

Thanks for the detailed reply. Props for making the thread too, its an interesting topic for a lot of guys on the forum I'd say. If my post came off as presumptive then sorry, I'm just a bit older than you and have a decent bit of experience in the area and wrote it in a bit of a rush. I've seen a lot of young guys in their 20s fuck themselves up by taking test/SARMs/other things irresponsibly so when I hear of anyone relatively young doing it then the immediate assumption in my mind is a bit negative/worried.

If your test was that low then going on TRT was definitely a good decision though, just for general lifestyle as much as bodybuilding - as you discuss. It does sound like you've done plenty of research on the topic and are doing it properly, so thats great to hear.

Long-term Dbol use would worry me slightly though, and as I said would seem a bit unnecessary for your goals. Have you tried doing 6-9 months free of it, just to see how well you maintain now that you're on TRT? It should be a lot easier for you to stay at 170 than it would have been prior to being on the TRT. With your test restored to natural/high levels that should be a very easy weight to maintain with a decent lifting routine and diet. I know you say you've experienced no negative sides, but the key addendum to that is probably yet. Facial aging and hair loss will hit eventually, even if you keep your liver clean.

Have you considered freezing some sperm? It might be a good investment. Its fairly easy to say "I never want kids" in your 20s, but I think that changes for a lot of guys in their 30s.

No problem, I see the value in your questions and I appreciate them. Important to think about things and get other perspectives.

I went off the dbol from about July to December. I didn't notice too much of a difference. I lost a couple of pounds of water weight and maybe a little volume, but otherwise still had good sessions and all that. I will probably go off for a while after in a month or two.

I am considering dropping Dbol all together for LGD 4033 since it supposedly just as effective but with even fewer sides. Supposedly is a keyword, though. SO many of the sarms are under researched that you never really know what you're getting into, so I am stepping tentatively on that one.

Good point on the facial aging. I'd forgotten about that. I began losing my hair at like 24, so I've been shaving it all off for the past 4 years, so I literally don't even know where my hairline starts anymore.



Haven't really thought about freezing sperm, but that's a good idea, actually. I need to look into that one. Can't hurt.

Thanks for the great questions, Zatara.

[Snowflake]

Great write-up Fortis. This is an extremely interesting topic to me and to the forum as a whole, I'm sure.

I'd be really interested in the answer to zatara's question regarding HCG myself. I would also like to know (I know this is going to sound really trollish but I promise it's a legit question) how your balls are doing after hopping on TRT.

The reason I ask is because I remember reading somewhere that you can expect anything from 20% to 30% shrinkage of your balls. I could google it and find a variety of answers to be honest, but I'd much rather hear it from a legit, red pilled source such as yourself.

Having girls cupping, rubbing or just generally playing with my balls is one of my greatest pleasures - having my balls shrink because of TRT use would definetely have an impact on such a romantic activity, I suspect.

Also, will you still be able to have children after prolonged use? Have your loads decreased in size (another deeply romantic pleasure of the writer is spraying girls down with patriarchy juice)?

Eventual problems aside, sounds like you're doing great for yourself with TRT. It takes real commitment and courage to start such a life changing treatment, especially since you're doing it all by yourself and have gone the 'underground' way, so to speak.
Respect!

[Steelex]

Brother, your balls will shrink.

I had eggs. Now I have olives.

I prefer having little nuts.

[BrewDog]

(05-15-2017 10:35 AM)Steelex Wrote:  

Brother, your balls will shrink.

I had eggs. Now I have olives.

I prefer having little nuts.

I don't get the worry about the small balls. I don't think any girl has ever complained, "His balls are so tiny!"

It doesn't make your dick smaller. So, don't worry about it.

[crispytaco]

I don't even notice the balls Size change, unless I pay attention. Nothing dramatic. She can still lick it or whatever
If you need to have children , stop the trt and take clomid.

[Steelex]

I have not had one chick complain or notice yet.

Except for one whore who took my cock and balls into her mouth at the same time. She remarked that my balls fit into her mouth perfectly, and she had always wanted to accomplish that.

My little chipmunk.

[Snowflake]

Does HCG help with maintaining ball size?

Someone answer the loads part, I feel too embarrassed to ask again

[Steelex]

Yes HCG can help maintain testicular size during a cycle. It also has its own sides. However TRT is not a cycle anymore than a diabetic taking insulin is cycling insulin. You take it to replace your natural test, and imo it's a life choice.

After a while the real question becomes "How many different medications and supplements am I willing to buy and take". It can get exhausting living like a fucking HIV patient taking multiple things and then other things to counter the sides.

Right now I'm cruising on 400mg test c, haven't been off since February 2016.

[zatara]

(05-15-2017 09:59 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

No problem, I see the value in your questions and I appreciate them. Important to think about things and get other perspectives.

I went off the dbol from about July to December. I didn't notice too much of a difference. I lost a couple of pounds of water weight and maybe a little volume, but otherwise still had good sessions and all that. I will probably go off for a while after in a month or two.

I am considering dropping Dbol all together for LGD 4033 since it supposedly just as effective but with even fewer sides. Supposedly is a keyword, though. SO many of the sarms are under researched that you never really know what you're getting into, so I am stepping tentatively on that one.

Good point on the facial aging. I'd forgotten about that. I began losing my hair at like 24, so I've been shaving it all off for the past 4 years, so I literally don't even know where my hairline starts anymore.



Haven't really thought about freezing sperm, but that's a good idea, actually. I need to look into that one. Can't hurt.

Thanks for the great questions, Zatara.

I know its very easy to get stuck in a feedback loop with friends of similar interests, or especially on fitness forums, where nobody ever presents a dissenting opinion. So if I'm offering a slightly differently perspective for you that's great to hear.

If you didn't notice a huge difference going off the dbol then I really would advise staying off it so. Probably not much to be gained going on SARMs either. There really isn't much point in putting your body through the extra stress/damage when you're not aiming to be 200lbs+ of muscle - its just a bit unneeded/pointless. You should find staying at 170lbs quite easy now that you're back at a decent test level, presuming your workout/diet is up to par.

You're lucky (in a way..) having already suffered the hair loss. But the facial aging is also very real. I've known a number of people who went on pretty aggressive chemically assisted programs for bodybuilding who aged a decade in 12 months, facially/hairline wise. All those gainz are great initially but when you're soon 25 and look 35, or 30 and look 40, its very much a Faustian bargain.

I don't know any more in-depth details on the sperm freezing because I've no experience of it myself, so can't offer any more specific advice on it unfortunately. But I don't think its hugely expensive or time consuming, so its definitely a good insurance policy to have.

[zatara]

And just to add again so I'm not coming across like an anti-drug PSA: it does sound like you're absolutely doing the right thing being on TRT, given your circumstances. Its just the dbol/sarms I'm questioning.

(tried to edit this in but its been over 60 minutes so can't..)

[Jack_Smith]

(05-15-2017 08:09 AM)Kratomite Wrote:  

Fortis, thanks for the detailed replies.

Are you taking HCG to keep your testes functioning? That seems to be the recommended add on IF you want to have kids later on, or come off trt. Otherwise you're basically shutting down your balls for the foreseeable future.

hcG is useful on TRT/cycle beyond maintaining fertility; keeps your balls plump and hanging like a man, ejaculate volume at least normal, and supports libido.

[Fortis]

(05-16-2017 07:20 AM)Jack_Smith Wrote:  

(05-15-2017 08:09 AM)Kratomite Wrote:  

Fortis, thanks for the detailed replies.

Are you taking HCG to keep your testes functioning? That seems to be the recommended add on IF you want to have kids later on, or come off trt. Otherwise you're basically shutting down your balls for the foreseeable future.

hcG is useful on TRT/cycle beyond maintaining fertility; keeps your balls plump and hanging like a man, ejaculate volume at least normal, and supports libido.

Since guys keep asking about balls, I'll answer with my perspective.

They got smaller, but my load volume and libido are fine. I don't really see the value in having huge balls. If anything, smaller balls makes my cock look a lot bigger.

[rudebwoy]

Great post Fortis.

One piece of advice I can give you is, that you need to give your body a break from steroids.

That is why they call it a cycle, you go on and off.

I started Test well into my mid 30s, my first cycle was Test/Tren (TnT). I blew up to 215 at 5'11 and I will second all the benefits you listed.

I have done less than 10 cycles in my whole life, I can maintain decent Test levels without taking Test.

[zphyer7]

(05-16-2017 10:14 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Great post Fortis.

One piece of advice I can give you is, that you need to give your body a break from steroids.

That is why they call it a cycle, you go on and off.

I started Test well into my mid 30s, my first cycle was Test/Tren (TnT). I blew up to 215 at 5'11 and I will second all the benefits you listed.

I have done less than 10 cycles in my whole life, I can maintain decent Test levels without taking Test.

He's on HRT because of low test levels, not cycling. He's on for life now; unless he wants to have low testosterone levels for the rest of his days.

[PainPositive]

^I don't know if this is true. Cernovich got off TRT over a year ago and posted his T levels and they aren't low.

[Fortis]

You can go off of TRT, but the idea is that you put yourself back at the levels you had when you were younger and you cruise on that indefinitely.

Some guys can go off and be fine, some guys can't. Can't draw massive generalizations. Generally, though, most people on TRT are not cycling TRT. If you want to cycle that is not the same as TRT. That is more sports-oriented and less QOL (quality of life) oriented and comes with a bunch of negatives. I am not cycling.

If you intend to go off then TRT is not for you. Bottomline.

Me? I'm not going off unless I have to go off for a very good reason (having kids).

[Steelex]

Not everyone can come back after being on TRT.

I'm close with a few guys who have cycled on and off for years then went to TRT, then tried to come off. Their axis is crashed to the point where after months of clomid and HCG, they can't get above 200.

It's different for everyone and you're not going to know till you're there.

[Fortis]

(05-17-2017 10:03 PM)Steelex Wrote:  

Not everyone can come back after being on TRT.

I'm close with a few guys who have cycled on and off for years then went to TRT, then tried to come off. Their axis is crashed to the point where after months of clomid and HCG, they can't get above 200.

It's different for everyone and you're not going to know till you're there.

This. Therefore I think you should not go on TRT unless you know you can stay on. Otherwise, you're just fucking with your health and would be better served by a cycle.

Be responsible out here, bros.

[doc holliday]

I'm 48 and have been doing TRT for almost 2 years now. I'm doing it through a TRT physician and he started me off at 50mg/wk. I think my total T level was 320 when I started. After 6 months I got up to 500 so the doc then put me up to 100mg/wk so then at the 1yr mark my T levels were almost 1100. He had me back off to 80mg/wk which I'm currently doing. I'm very happy I did it and I have no problem injecting myself once a week, it's really not a big deal. I do HCG .25mg twice a week and my testicle size has not changed a whole lot since I started. The HCG gives me a subtle extra boost towards the end of the week before my next T injection. I also take .25mg arimidex 3 times a week to control my estrogen levels as they were getting a bit high (even though I never experienced any gyno).

My energy levels are really good and pretty consistent through the week. I find that when I have a hard workout, I get a real nice natural boost of T which really enhances this regimen that I'm currently on. My LDL and triglyceride levels have dropped which I'm also very happy about and my strength in the gym is really good for a guy my age. I'm 6'0", about 185-190lbs with a 32 waist. I'd say that I'm at about 15% body fat. All in all I'm very satisfied and I'm happy to continue it my whole life. As Fortis will attest, it can really be a difference maker but every guy needs to consider it carefully, pros and cons.

[CleanSlate]

(05-17-2017 11:06 AM)PainPositive Wrote:  

^I don't know if this is true. Cernovich got off TRT over a year ago and posted his T levels and they aren't low.

I think he is the exception to the rule. I hope I'm wrong, but not many guys can realistically expect to come back like Cernovich by going cold turkey on test without a hpta restart or PCT.