[AnonymousBosch]

(05-01-2018 09:58 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

I don't know if this makes sense, but how much of Gamma is really because we live in such boring times. With boring, I mean we're not fighting for survival or really anything.

I've seen Gamma cross socioeconomic boundaries. The fight for survival is still going on in areas that I've observed it.

Quote:

Sometimes I wonder how much of modern day issues like narcissism, solipsism, mental disorder, gamma, omega, whatever would all just disappear the moment you had to fight for survival every day.

Hence why Victorian Sensibility fell out of fashion with the start of WWI. It was considered the height of selfish indulgence. Note however, that narcissism, solipsism and mental disorders have always historically-existed. We have the oral and written history to prove it.

Quote:

What if in prehistoric times, Deltas would be the ones coming back with the meat and it was obvious who really carries the group. And what if today Deltas in general don't do so well with women because women can't directly observe the blue collar guys keeping the lights on and the shit in the toilet.

I suspect even in prehistoric times Deltas would have been as invisible to women as they are now. I can't think of many historical or modern entertainments aimed at women where the object of the heroine's affection was Delta, rather than Alpha or Sigma.

In entertainment, Deltas are more a source of humour. 'Bewitched', 'The Flintstones', 'Married With Children'.

Quote:

I don't really know. It just all feels off. All. of. it. I'm at a point where I'm not sure I even know what to believe in anymore.

Congratulations, you understand what I mean when I say we're Post-Truth.

Don't despair or get upset about it. Just expect a background of dysfunctional surface noise to your daily activities and focus on your own goals.

[The Catalyst]

I realised because of my narcissistic parents I'd been virtually lacking any real affection all my life. Any affection would be from other people, and that's been rare. That's often why I've been pouring my heart out to online friends- to compensate for the lack of affection I'd received throughout my life. I'm going to apologise in advance(perhaps in a "sorry-not sorry" way) for posting here so much and with so much ramble- the constant need to say what's on my mind and that my opinions matter so much and needing to get validation is actually a noticable gamma trait of mine, ironic given the thread name. Kiwis generally don't care about people either, so there's very few outlets.

The thing I learned about how to deal with my narcissist Dad. Never ever cross him. If he thinks something is your fault, regardless of how far fetched it is or whether it is or not, act as if it is. Then claim something like(paraphrased) "Yes O wise one I've done bad and I've made mistakes I'll try my best to learn next time and with your great/brilliant advice I will" in as sincere a fashion as possible(obviously you can't be fully sincere since that's just a flat out lie). Then, never ever call him out for any mistake/wrongdoing whatsoever no matter how small it is or how obvious it is that it's his fault. When I did this today from his latest meltdown/narcissistic rage I noticed him calm down from a lot of vitriol to a sense of quiet calm/satisfaction- almost as if I'm the loving and encouraging parent who gave him the validation and praise he needed. Weirdly, I didn't sense a sense of smugness from him("told you so", "so there"), even though it's not as if he's never smug, because he often is. I feel a bit "satanic" because I feel I'm lying and I'm worshipping a false god, basically. The true irony is they're Christians.

What triggered the meltdown today. Someone called the landline asking for me. I had been given a new phone with a new number recently. I mixed up my number with Dad's number- I don't call him so I didn't realise, and the two numbers were in very similar places. I was pretty sure that the number I wrote down a few days ago was mine, but that turned out to be wrong. Obviously I gave the wrong(his) number. He then interrupted me saying it was his number, but I was pretty sure about every step of the chain that I did things right so I in mild frustration insisted it was my number and said it to the lady on the phone. This led to a disgusting amount of abuse and him insinuating I was "too proud to listen" and "no one would want to hire you/be your friend if you're that way". I really don't want to overuse the word "abuse" as that's a very feminist thing to do, but I looked it up, thought it through, and think it applies here. He wasn't abusive when I was on the phone, but he was decently intense regardless. The interesting thing is one of the phrases he always uses- "I was trying to be nice/talk to you nicely but X[what you did really gets me angry(looking back, generally something which shouldn't get people angry)". He likes to say this to mum a lot.

The hilarious thing is he wasn't trying to be nice. But before realising the narcissistic brokenness of him I would think on a subconscious level there was some truth to what he said. That's the thing about narcissists- their behavior is so over the top and ridiculous you can point out the few things which are "obviously" wrong and ridiculous- but you think there has to be some middle ground where they're right and there's some nugget of truth to what they're saying. Maybe there is- but that's pretty much luck, I've come to realise.

Later on, I was asking for help wondering how I can set it so I can see my number from my phone(eventually, put my number as the name of the top contact- Ideally, I'd want to put it on my homescreen but there didn't seem to be an easy way and he didn't know either). Obviously, us being logical, he said go to "settings" which I did with the settings icon. Then, being as cruelly dismissive as he could be without being ridiculously over the top, he said "No...". So I started over, then he condescendingly asked "Now, where is it?". Because I wrote off the button I originally pressed, and was relatively sure of, I was scanning the whole screen wondering what he meant. Somehow, either I asked or he told me where it was. Then without thinking I said along the lines of "Well, I did that originally and you said it wasn't there." That triggered an avalanche of abuse about how "I needed to be humble if I'm asking for help"(but also "humble" in general) and "know how to admit when I'm wrong". Then a few minutes later he would be like "I didn't see you press that button, you pressed it too fast, the screen is too small(his eyesight is failing), it's a completely understandable mistake, and I need to "learn" to be patient when others make mistakes". The hilarious amount of projection and hypocrisy is off the charts. The funny thing is "hypocrite" is one of his favorite insults/slurs. It only stopped when I calmly explained that I was wrong but also explained my thought process. I tried to come up with a credible explanation for it being my fault, but obviously since it wasn't I had to strain pretty hard. Then I said obviously I couldn't read social cues(bullshit). He eventually calmed down and eventually smiled in a similar way to a child who got given the affection he needed when I validated him enough. I messed up a bit by trying to get him to be empathetic "I made a social mistake, so I request you be patient as well"(in the same vein how he with vitriol insisted I be patient with his technical mistake). Obviously narcissists can't care about others, so that was a mistake.

Mum's really technologically illiterate, so the above exchange would happen with her repeatedly. Often it would be her fault and she wouldn't know. So Dad would repeatedly insist that she be "humble enough to learn". I think she, to protect her self-esteem and sense of self-worth, never would admit fault. Which is the exact wrong thing to do of course. In fact, logically a lot of the time it was her fault, which made it hard for me to see the abuse as it is. One of Dad's favorite phrases was "the monkey did it"- the implication being, not-him people would always try to deflect blame when it's obvious it's their fault and use that as an excuse.

Knowing he's narcissist also makes a lot of things make a lot of sense. One of his favorite stories to tell, almost like a routine, is how at work when people come to him, they always have to "show they're willing to learn" and "not be too arrogant/proud/know-it-all/smart-aleck". And if someone is too up themselves, then he'd not help them because they're not willing to receive help. Generally I've always taken it at face value despite being tired of the repetition(he'd always say the same things over and over)- but now my eyes opened- it's highly likely he's super-dysfunctional and the "arrogant" people are just saying it as it is and the "humble" people are those who are, basically, sucking his dick. He's a lot more functional in public, so I don't actually know how much of an ego he has, but I'd imagine that the story didn't go exactly the way he said, and people were scared to "cross" him or he'd be petty and snub them. EDIT: Sidenote: This now makes it abundantly clear why he likes NZ so much- Kiwis are so non-confrontational it's not funny. Think Germans are cucks? At least they are direct and say what they think, political correctness aside- Kiwis will never say what they think ever. Which is why Dad likes it here- they will never call him out for being dysfunctional. And why I don't like it here- I can never have true meaningful interactions with people if they never truly have the balls to say what they think. They never will cross a narcissist.

The other thing, is often when I'm on the computer I would laugh. Sometimes I'd have moments of pure joy. Maybe about 20% of the time I'd be trolling others or laughing at others(directly), but the rest a lot of the time things are just so joyful or funny to me at the time that I can't help it. Then he would ask/state/imply "you're not making fun of other people are you?" in a condescending, mild disapproving tone(it's mild because the vibe is that he doesn't care one way or another if I did or didn't- but would prefer I didn't). Then I'd be like "no..."(most of the time, that was true- I think sometimes I would admit I was if I was, then he'd tease me about being naughty). I believe the first couple times that happened, I would say "what are you talking about?" and he wouldn't really elaborate(or would explain "you're laughing so much you must be teasing someone"). But I would always wonder what the hell he was on about. I'd imagined it was his way of banter, unfunny repetitive banter but banter nonetheless. Or that I seemed particularly mischievous. Now it makes perfect sense- he would only feel the sense of pure joy I feel when others are suffering- so he assumed I was causing others to suffer. Or that people had laughed, at times at him maybe, and he would feel the massive pain/rejection in his amygdala that others were laughing at him.

The thing I've come to realise is as Rigsby said, they can't love me, not in the way normal people do, or the way I really need. That's sad, but I think it has to be true. I've imagined that for a while but I'd imagined it was me being "ungrateful" or autistic.

And subconsciously, them being narcissist means they want me to suffer. As far as I know they consciously care about and want the best for me, or at least to a certain extent that it provides them with good-feels and the impression to others they're doing good as parents- but deep down, the disgusting, sickening narcissistic nature wants me to suffer.

I've gotten stronger after coming to these realisations- when either of them goes on these rants(Mum has actually gotten a lot better in the past few years, but she was horrible when I was growing up also), that they're actively trying to make me suffer. The ironic thing is they would always claim the best for me and they never want me to suffer- when their actions state otherwise. In response to their abuse I'd always either denied my fault and said so, which triggered more abuse- or conditioned myself deep down to believe I was at fault, useless and worthless, subconsciously. But now I'll do the "two-faced" thing- admit fault/worthlessness to their face(to get them to back down), but deep down write them off. I feel like I'm losing a bit of my soul doing that, but instead of feeling weak and emotional I feel strong and stoic.

I think I've got a lot of deprogramming to do. I'd been depressed for many many years(6-7 years ago maybe?), and I really only "got over it" maybe 1-2 years ago, with a mix of CBT, lightbox, magnesium among other things. But I'd still been weak and "low energy" and tired to some extent, but not super-depressed level. This is part of the reason for the feelings of worthlessness- because I was too tired to do anything. In fact I don't think I remembered not being tired- except sometimes when I was doing something really fun and my parents weren't around and I was with other people, often they cared about me. But I hadn't managed to connect the dots(I would imagine my energy level swings were somewhat random). Now I know- and every time I write off their attempts at putting me down, I feel stronger and a greater sense of self-esteem. With CBT and some daygame before, I'd learned not to attach my ego/self-esteem to my accomplishments- but the fact that I can write off their constant abuse really made me feel "human" and "alive" in a way I didn't before. I think I will still have mood swings- but it seems I'm much better than I'd ever been in my life, other than when I was about 7 or so when the abuse hadn't fully set in yet.

I know you're all a bunch of strangers on the internet and have no real reason to care about me- writing that made me tear up a little- but coming to that realisation about my parents, I feel more alone than I'd almost ever felt. This time, I feel stronger though- I've never felt psychologically alone yet strong before. On some level I feel I need support for what I'm going through right now- which is why I've said what I've said above to some degree to my friends(though a really short summary, more if they care more- but I can't really expect them to care too much, or even worth burdening them if they do care). I don't want to burden people though. One thing I've read on RVF and other redpill/self-improvement sites is realistically it's dumb or foolish to help other people with issues- as it's usually a waste of time, they won't change, and they will drag you down with them. In the past I've often tried to rope people to help me with my suffering even though I didn't fully know what my issues were, I had a rough idea, but nothing like now- and realised how selfish I was with that in large part because I wouldn't change. I need support- but realise everyone's on their own journey and ultimately if I stick through it and work on my issues I'd be able to push through on my own.

EDIT: Ultimately I won't begrudge them or hate them or anything because it seems it's their nature and they can't help it- but I've always thought I didn't love them, and maybe it was because I'm ungrateful. Now I realise, it was because they were incapable of loving me. Long term plan is to have a clean break- but not hold it against them. It's so tempting as me to hold a grudge against them- or if you're my sisters, love them and connect with them regardless. But I don't think I will do either.

[Bluey]

Honestly it sounds a lot like you need to connect with some people in real life that aren't trying to tear you down constantly, and get out from under the thumb of your parents. There's a lot of negative people in the world, and it's worth trying to get them out of your life, or at least minimize the effect they have on you.

I can't tell you what to do or how to pull yourself out of the situation you're in, but I think it'd do you a world of good to get out there and independent away from your folks. It's a hard thing to do, leave the comfort of the familiar, but it's clear you're not happy where you are in life.

Have a good think about what you want to do, there's a fantastic amount of useful information on this forum to help you. Find what you want, and pursue it. Don't let anyone stop you. In the end you've got to make the decision if the pain of staying where and what you are is worse than finding what you can be.

[BortimusPrime]

I'd highly recommend getting into a situation where you can control the amount of exposure to your parents. Talking about your dad, it sounds like everything he says or does annoys you now, and I've had a couple friendships end with that same pattern. In both situations I wasn't able to distance myself to cool off and increasingly trivial things the person did would irritate me to the point where I finally blew up. The explosion feels good in the moment, but once you're in a better place in your life odds are you'll look back on it as kicking a dumb dog that bit you because it doesn't know any better, and you'll wish you'd just ghosted the person for a while until their behavior stopped eating at you.

[AnonymousBosch]

I think you're doing damn well Cat, based on where you were 18 months or so ago. Understanding you need to be able to rely on yourself is a huge step and will lead you to greater confidence and a sense of control of your own destiny. Later on, you can be secure enough in yourself to let people lean on you, which won't give you as much time to think about yourself to much.

With other people: I had a very negative mindset as a younger kid, probably from 8 up until about 10 or so, where I expected people to be exactly how my quick impressions of them them seemed. This grew more contemptuous from about 11-12, as I learnt to rage against the world. At about 13, I simply decided to give people a fair chance despite my stereotypical assessment, and accept that even if others weren't outwardly the type of company I imagined I deserved, they could still be good company regardless, if I just if changed my expectations of the relationship. I've gained a lot of perspective and life experience from people I never imagined being friends with.

In a way, this is how I learnt to talk to girls. I didn't expect them to be as deep or interesting as my male friends, and tempered myself to match.

[Transsimian]

TheCatalyst, I know where you are coming from. For privacy reasons, I'm not going to list common ground, but I've got a few suggestions.

Start to spend an hour or more each day learning Indonesian. I'm suggesting Indonesian instead of your ancestral language as it is easy but no one would be able to take credit for your success or belittle your progress. The sense of momentum you get when starting a new language can be very motivating.

When you get enough progress, find English language teaching work in Indonesia. There's less competition than in China or Thailand, so they won't demand a white face, and the high cost of drinks make it a lot harder to slip into alcoholism. I know clowning about in front of children seems small compared to what your old high-school friends are doing but it is just a stepping stone to build up your independence and sense of worth.

Your Chinese ethnicity will help you network with the ethnic-Chinese who control most of the Indonesian economy, maybe you can make something long term of it, or at least, secure enough to finance the next stage of your adventure.

Best of luck.
BTW, to explain my recent absence, I'm trying to improve my signal-to-noise ratio and spam less.

[infowarrior1]

(05-02-2018 12:39 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

(05-01-2018 09:58 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

I don't know if this makes sense, but how much of Gamma is really because we live in such boring times. With boring, I mean we're not fighting for survival or really anything.

I've seen Gamma cross socioeconomic boundaries. The fight for survival is still going on in areas that I've observed it.

Quote:

Sometimes I wonder how much of modern day issues like narcissism, solipsism, mental disorder, gamma, omega, whatever would all just disappear the moment you had to fight for survival every day.

Hence why Victorian Sensibility fell out of fashion with the start of WWI. It was considered the height of selfish indulgence. Note however, that narcissism, solipsism and mental disorders have always historically-existed. We have the oral and written history to prove it.

Quote:

What if in prehistoric times, Deltas would be the ones coming back with the meat and it was obvious who really carries the group. And what if today Deltas in general don't do so well with women because women can't directly observe the blue collar guys keeping the lights on and the shit in the toilet.

I suspect even in prehistoric times Deltas would have been as invisible to women as they are now. I can't think of many historical or modern entertainments aimed at women where the object of the heroine's affection was Delta, rather than Alpha or Sigma.

In entertainment, Deltas are more a source of humour. 'Bewitched', 'The Flintstones', 'Married With Children'.

Quote:

I don't really know. It just all feels off. All. of. it. I'm at a point where I'm not sure I even know what to believe in anymore.

Congratulations, you understand what I mean when I say we're Post-Truth.

Don't despair or get upset about it. Just expect a background of dysfunctional surface noise to your daily activities and focus on your own goals.

Does the frequency decrease down the socioeconomic ranks? Or does it remain constant?

I am surprised the fight for survival doesn't weed out those types of males as thoroughly as I thought.

[The Catalyst]

Thanks for the responses and support guys. I've been deliberating a bit. And I'll try to respond to people.

I've felt more normal and alive than I'd ever felt. Previously when thinking about doing something I'd always have a "wall" of hesitation- I'd always been tired and depressed to some degree, and I would feel the need to "manage" my energy so it doesn't crash and try to prioritise the things I really wanted. Often, it would leave me paralysed doing nothing. Now, I sort of feel detached from that and a sort of "mental hack" appeared- I could just not think about it and just do it and it'll be fine. Previously I knew this sort of thing/mentality existed/was good- but I would always be really anxious and my heart would race when push comes to shove. Realising this was narcissistic abuse- really deprogrammed me.

On Indonesia- Ideally, I'd move to Europe or Asia(or US, but visas seem tough) long term. Indonesia isn't preferred, because it doesn't seem as civilised or first world or what-have-you as I'd like. Then again, what do I know? I'm willing to keep any options open for now.

On parents/moving out- When my parents aren't melting down, they're actually pretty fine. A big part of me I noticed feels drained when I'm living with them- so far, now I'm aware of the situation, this doesn't happen anywhere as much- hopefully it continues as long as I have to be here. I feel Kiwis are soft-narcissists- not full blown but I notice a tiny bit of my parents' narcissistic behavior in them(ie, always insulting/making fun of foreigners/foreign culture and laughing, but getting all pissy[generally subtle/hidden] if you even imply NZ/Kiwis have fault/wrongdoing). There's probably a good reason to leave home and just go flatting, but I don't want to spend all this effort if it disrupts what I really want(leaving NZ) and barely improves my situation.

Haven't been lucky with the job search so far, but hopefully I can keep plugging away at it.

Another thing was I've lost a sense of "desperation" I didn't know I had- any new opportunity, whether it be to get with a girl I really liked, or to leave NZ somehow, or get a job without putting the hard yards of the job search- I was clinging to it, because I was suffering and saw it as my way out. I didn't realise this was happening at the time. A big reason I lost it is because I no longer feel worthless and thus depressed/tired(as much), so we'll see how this changes things.

[Rigsby]

It's good that you're feeling better about things Catalyst.

That first dawning of realisation, that first 'eureka' moment can be quite intoxicating. All I would ask is that you take a little step back for a moment, temper the words of advice you have had with a little due diligence on your part. There are stages you go through with this and you don't want to 'get ahead of yourself'.

But feeling positive is only to be encouraged, and others in this thread who seem to be a bit more familiar with your personal situation seem to think you are doing ok, so it's a win all round so far. Just keep a cool head.

The stages you are about to go through get a lot harder in the near future.

First comes the realisation that something may be wrong, that you aren't happy and that you need to find out what it is.

Second comes the research, the exploring of avenues, thinking the unthinkable. The reaching for answers.

Third comes the lightbulb moment, the red flags, the correlations between your situation and others who have gone through a similar thing. The 'eureka' moment I referred to earlier.

Fourth comes the doing something about it. Working out a strategy. Making plans for your 'great escape'. The pragmatic stuff.

Fifth comes the after-shock. The repercussions. The price you will have to pay for staking your independence and becoming a man that can stand on his own two feet. There is always a price to pay. Know that.

You are at the third stage I would say. You do seem to have done a lot of 'work' already. It's why I repped you. For the 'work'. I don't give out rep points lightly these days.

The next stage is a very critical stage to be at. Probably the most critical stage of all with regard to how much potential there is to totally fuck things up or really make things good. This will be about damage limitation as you move forward.

I'll try to give a quick example.

An ex-girlfriend of mine who was autistic (high-functioning) had a son who was also HFA. He was a bit more further down the spectrum than you. Not so intelligent. Much more of a negative attitude. A lot more naive and vulnerable. He left home and just went at it full tilt. He was highly irresponsible but he did not see that himself. He just wanted to get out and become independent.

It didn't take long before he was calling his mum for money. He had been ripped off. His new 'friends' had decided to have a party in his new flat and trashed the place. Other friends 'borrowed' money off him with no intention of paying it back. He ended up on shit river without a paddle or a kayak.

Now, I'm now drawing any parallels at all with you. I don't know you. I would say though that you are a lot more high-functioning than him. I'm sure you would never get yourself in to such a mess. But there is a moral to the story somewhere. If you can't see what it is...

And you have to understand that it isn't that your parents are bad people or that they don't love you very much in their own way. It sounds to me that your parents are pretty mild on the narc spectrum if I was pushed to say. But you aren't happy. There is some kind of 'wrong' dynamic there. Whether or not it is even narcissism at all is a moot point.

What matters is that you have a framework to go further in life. And to do it sooner rather than later. If this is a good vehicle for you at the moment, then ride it till the wheels come off. But always re-evaluate. Consider you may be wrong. That others are wrong and you are possibly getting bad advice. That of all the things there are in heaven and earth, there are more things that you never dreamed of in your philosophy.

Another point I would take in to consideration is your siblings. Again, I'm not sure of the dynamic. But narcs are well know to 'triangulate' between siblings. The role of Golden Child and Black Sheep can flip-flop on a whim. Really the defining characteristic of a true narc is their malevolence. They will think nothing of playing siblings off against each other, for fun, for profit, for payback. And they won't care if they destroy all their children in the process.

Narcissism is not to be taken lightly. It really is a pathological and diseased condition by definition. If this is what you are truly dealing with (and you don't know for a fact yet that it is), then be prepared.

Anyway, while there definitely is some kind of connection between narcissism and Gamma traits, I haven't worked out exactly what it is yet. This whole Gamma thing is new to me and I'm really not qualified to say.

I'm also not sure how much more either of us can contribute to this thread before the law of diminishing returns applies. It's been an interesting detour, but I'm not sure we would be taking things further by carrying on this conversation here.

Why don't you start a new thread? It would make an excellent journal for you and I'm sure with your lucidity about your situation it would be of benefit to others that would tune in. I'd be happy to contribute best I can.

Alternatively you can PM me if you would like. I don't even mind chatting on the phone either if you think it would be of benefit to you. I'm not a professional or a therapist as I have stated several times. But to be honest I don't think a therapist is what you need right now. Sometimes people just need a sounding board. Someone to bounce ideas off.

I have hope for you that you will make the best of a less than ideal situation. It really isn't that bad. It could very well be the making of you. And I certainly don't think you have been as damaged as others I have seen. Therapy is a double-edged sword. I think you are doing fine by yourself so far.

You are young. You are intelligent. You are conscious. You are doing the work. Perhaps even in a best case scenario, there might be some kind of other misunderstanding between you and your parents, and you might not be dealing with narcissistic abuse at all. The ideal outcome is for you to gain your independence, become happy and fulfilled and also maintain a healthy relationship with both your parents and your siblings.

And in an even more ideal world, you would be able to maintain some filial piety and be there for your parents when they will need you most.

This is why I suggest you take a step back and reconsider all options.

The narc red-pill is heady. I've seen some drink of it too much.

And there is always the inherent danger of blaming those around you for your own short-comings. I'm not saying you are. Just that it is a pitfall to be considered.

One thing is for sure though: you need to get out and start fending for yourself. Small steps at first. Humble job, few if any friends. No distractions. Maybe a couple of years of this. Yes it will be hard. But this is the base of the Pyramid. These are the foundations you will be building on for the rest of your life.

Then you can consider moving to other countries and making a bigger go of things. Move from a position of strength, not desperation. Conquer, don't retreat. Use this time to 'woodshed' - learn a new language, learn an instrument, learn Martial Arts. Do all three!

With respect to Bosch, I think we've taken this far enough off piste. I'm interested to see the Gamma concept fleshed out more and I'm not sure either of us would be adding any more value by stringing this out further than we have.

Start a new thread or/and hit me up via PM.

There are so many resources out there for you and your situation, but they really would just be going off track and muddying this otherwise excellent thread up more than needs be.

Be sure to provide a link here though if you do decide to make a new thread. I hope you do.

[AnonymousBosch]

(05-03-2018 08:05 AM)infowarrior1 Wrote:  

Does the frequency decrease down the socioeconomic ranks? Or does it remain constant?

I've seen it across all socioeconomic ranks, but I'd need a larger sample size to answer that question accurately.

Currently, it seems to be more evident in the middle and upper middle class, but that could simply be that they have easier access to social media and more free time so their voices stand out more.

I've wondered if 'Soy' is just an easier-to-understand labelling of Gamma: the bitchiness, the overestimated intelligence, the passive-aggressiveness, the lack of realistic sexual self-evaluation, the need to be both right and popular, the cluelessness that normal people are repelled by them - these all suggest the creation of Subjective Reality.

It takes a Gamma level of self-delusion to think that this kind of body language comes across as cool, fun and indicative of high socially-status, instead of false, 'dead' and repellent.



Access to social media is probably the worst thing you could give to a Gamma kid.

[AnonymousBosch]

I mentioned that one of the readings for Pentecost yesterday was Galatians 5:15-25.

It's a list of 'works of the flesh' that risk destroying you if you put your will in opposition to the Holy Spirit's.

The Missal had a modern translation - listing 'Jealousy', but I went back to the 1582 version, where the translation is 'Emulations'.

The footnote definition lists a much richer and complex series of behaviours: 'ambitious rivalry for position or honors, ill will toward rivals, grudges against the superiority of others, dislike of superiors, jealousy.'

This sounds awfully-familiar.

Do Fedoras make a lot more sense now?

[debeguiled]

Don't forget vainglory, another awesome forgotten one that the Christian mystics used to talk a lot about as well.

Quote:

Go to the tombs and see that the assurance of men is nothing. Why then does man who is dust indulge in vainglory? Why does he who is all stench exalt himself? Let us therefore weep for ourselves while we have time, lest, at the hour of our departure, we be found asking God for extra time to repent.

St Pachomius

[Andreas]

How do you deal with people who are all bark, but no bite, or silent (who suppresses anger) and then acts passive aggressive? I had two lieutenants in the army, one of them acted like the former and the other, as the latter description. I did not have to deal with them a lot, but they did make my experience in the army much worse than anyone else. Keep in mind that one of them had no respect from other officers and the other one was too dormant and hesitant to pull any passive aggressive shit on his colleagues (but he did on his soldiers).

A better question would be, how would you deal with people who act in this way, but they have more power simply because of ranking? I personally dealt with the first one by having close relations with higher ranking officers, and most low ranking who made my life easier, but the I did not pay close attention the red flags from the other guy, in order to do anything about it early on.

I read the first few pages of this thread and didn't pay much thought to passive aggressive behavior, but now that I think about this, I got worked up for some reason. I'm not gonna see those two guys again, but I want to know in case I find myself in a similar situation.

[david.garrett84]

The problem with much of the gamma discussion is that it depends on prevailing trends, political systems and cultural climates.

Malcolm Gladwell covers alleged "losers" who became winners in David and Goliath.

For example, a very disagreeable person like Ingvar Kamprad (the IKEA founder) was mocked, attacked and considered a moron for moving much of his production and resource procurement to Poland. He was lambasted as a cheap artist and loser for years. Would we have called him a Gamma or a Sigma in the 60s? Likely a Gamma.

The Impressionist painters organized their own hardly popular art exhibition in a small apartment after being shunned from the main one. They didn't turn heads for years and survived at times on bread from other artists. Gammas with a Secret King sense of entitlement?

Plus, although gammas are often associated with a seething rage, plenty of alphas without priors have been prosecuted and jailed for beating the shit out of the proverbial 120-pound weakling. If your sense of self is so weak that you put yourself in jail (or risk it) by taking offense at some slight from a skinny teen or college student, there's a problem.

Ray Rice is a good case study of the "alpha" who evidently couldn't hold frame and, however much some people may say he was treated harshly, ended up fucking his life up.

Finally, look at someone like Roosh versus someone like Justin Bieber. Roosh tells men to aim high with women like he has, and reject broken and loose women - the system's response is to try to demonetize him, defame him due to their refusal to see a direct parallel between his article and Jonathan Swift's pamphlet, and have him stalked and threatened on the street in Montreal. By contrast, Bieber toes the line, dutifully dates the weird-looking Hispanic girl we're all meant to call hot (Selena Gomez [why not a young Salma Hayek clone?!?!]), and doesn't question the system, allowing him to bang nubile women on the side. Who has the bigger balls? We all know the answer.

We might say that Sigma encompasses those who refuse to follow the party line, but the typology doesn't take into account the sort of oftentimes violent opposition true contrarians face.

[Thersites]

AB, sorry for the late reply. Real life got in the way,

(05-02-2018 12:15 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

Interesting. The alternate SSNRI/SSRI theory would match my Neural Plasticity belief: through repetition a Gamma could 'train themselves' into generating new neural pathways to erase the old behaviour. I've seen it happen without drugs, and both those men and my Stepfather are definitely Classically-Gamma. The problem is making them come to that initial realization of the false reality to begin with.

You are correct about your theory. From my knowledge of treatment for depression, the best outcomes are combinations of medication and cognitive behavior therapy (CBT). Medication helps a person biological to handle their screw up biochemical chemistry in one's head. CBT helps a person to learn their about their problems and find ways to overcome them. Your stepfather's breakdown was the sign to him that he has a problem.

(05-02-2018 12:15 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

So, under that theory, what would your expectations be as to his sudden regression? The new pathways haven't had time to strengthen and gain dominance? My initial thought was that he might be developing tolerance and needed to increase his dosage. Could he theoretically come off the medication down the track and remain in a more functional Delta State if the pathway theory is correct?

Your stepfather just started his medication. Its going to take time for his brain to undergo change in his neural pathway. He will only develop tolerance to medication if he was on it for longer period of time, say 1 yr at most. Under proper supervision, medication can be switch to give his body time to become sensitive to medication again. Medication is one component to handling his issues. The other component is self acknowledgement that his behavior and thinking is determential to himself and abnormal. He needs to actively confront his issues and make change to himself to avoid the pitfalls of being a gamma. As long has he understand that his behavior is abnormal and start to implement changes in his life, he should be on the path of Delta state.

(05-02-2018 12:15 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

Or is it really about chemical imbalance, and the chemical makeup of his (and other Gamma's) brain is closer to female than male? The behaviour is SO classically-female, especially the spiteful and vindictive nature.

Depends on person's environment and genetics and the how many comorbidities a person has. I take a guess, a child will follow the person that mostly takes care of him.

(05-02-2018 12:15 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

If it is a behavioural maladaptation, does that explain how some of those negative tendencies still remain in men who were Gamma and are now Sigma? The only difference being the social dysfunctions of Sigma are sexually-attractive to women. Is Sigma then a malfunction of the Behavioural Inhibition System? I've noted before Bill and I keep very busy physically and mentally - is hyperactivity correlated? Could both Gamma and Sigma be somehow related to Oppositional Defiant Disorder, (the existence of which I'm very skeptical of).

Old habits die hard, behavior takes time to change. Negative tendencies will always remind, unless you actively snuff them out with CBT. The key difference between Gamma and Sigma is the ability for one to accept the truth. Instead of creating delusion to overcome one's low status in the world as gamma, a sigma just say fuck it and lives his life as best he can.

On to you and Bill being very busy. I been thinking about this, but Sigma was able to harvest hyperfocus to get stuff doneand know the dangers of being too focus. You and Bill being busy all the time is a adaptive behavior to not dwelling on something too long before mind goes to the extreme in thinking about something. I see this with my own experience of surfing the web too much to avoid depressing thoughts sometimes.

As for Gamma and Sigma be somehow related to Oppositional Defiant Disorder, is something I can not say for sure. In my opinion, its highly unlikely.

Once again, sorry for the late reply AB.

[kamoz]

Holy shit. Why have I not looked at this thread before?

To those who doubt the existence of gammas, or do not prefer the added classification, you probably have not met any before. Leo's first few posts in this thread are on point.

The corporate world is full of them. I used to consider these types of people betas, but reading through the thread there is a clear delineation between betas and gammas. Betas aren't that big of a deal really. But gammas? Boy you better watch out for them. If you're not in a job or society that let's you 'take things outside' - so the Western corporate world - you better know how to play the game and tread carefully, more carefully than you might expect.

Wish I had known about these concepts before, but alas, that's how you learn. Real life experiences. My $0.02.

[Jetset]

Gamma in one story:

http://www.syracuse.com/crime/index.ssf/...house.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...d-son.html

- Parents get fed up with their jobless 30-year-old son still living at home, especially after he gets fired at Best Buy for refusing to work Saturdays. They offer him $1,100 to move out.

- He takes the money and doesn't move out or even get his car fixed.

- Parents are forced to have him formally evicted.

- Son actually does legal research to assert his right to be a deadbeat parasite. Tries to drag media microphones to the witness stand to make sure everyone can hear what he has to say.

- Judge is impressed but already has the appellate case that overturned the son's case law in hand. Evicts him and calls Adult Protective Services to figure out what's wrong with him because 30.

- Son believes he is a hero who is very interesting and calls a press conference outside the courtroom, unaware that he has actually brought global shame upon his entire lineage.

Quote:

In a redacted filing, Michael also said he runs his own 'successful' business, calling it 'the overwhelmingly superior choice for the economic well being over the working of a full-time job'.

[456]

- Buttoned suit jacket button while sitting

- "Power" red shirt with black suit, the official uniform of "youngish guy who never has to wear suit except for today"

- Hair and beard optimized for ease and laziness rather than groomed for dashingness

- No-effort glasses frames selection

- Smug grin "this'll show Mom'n'Dad for raising me and being hospitable without even realizing my secret monarchy"

- Casual-pro leg-cross to indicate amused mastery

Fun

[The Catalyst]

Anonymousconservative is giving away his books for the next few days: https://www.anonymousconservative.com/bl...d-tuesday/

Quote:

Evo-Psych is here:

https://www.amazon.com/Evolutionary-Psyc...8&qid=&sr=

Narcissist here:

https://www.amazon.com/How-Deal-Narcissi...M5GJD2FG8B

I'm currently starting to read the narcissist book and boy it's mind-blowing so far. Putting everything into perspective...

[Bluey]

Bump. Vox day's recent blog post about gammas seems relevant.

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2018/06/gamma...-here.html

Quote:

I think it is now time to openly institute an anti-gamma policy. It's no secret that I detest them and their behavioral patterns, but I simply don't have the time or the patience to tolerate their antics any longer. The now-banned Pale Male's nonsense is a good example of why they simply aren't worth the effort required to put up with them.

Quote:

You forgot the modifier: Social science is not scientific. That's because "social" is a modifier meaning "not": social science, social justice, social work.... Tell us, Vox: have you ever taken a course in physics? Did you pass?

This is classic gamma bullshit utilizing the four As of the gamma.

Assume a superior, lecturing pose.
Assert that the other party has made a mistake, and in doing so, demonstrate a complete failure to have understood what the other party said.
Attack the other party instead of addressing the subject at hand.
Attempt to disqualify and discredit the other party in lieu of demonstrating the errors of their position.

The whole point of the post, which was explicitly stated, was that scientistry (the scientific profession) is increasingly not utilizing scientody (the scientific method). That is what "science is not scientific" means and the observation applies to both the hard and the soft sciences, as has been chronicled here on several occasions. My having taken, or not taken, courses in physics at the high school and college levels has absolutely nothing to do with the accuracy of my observations concerning corruption in science. All aspects of science. After all, I haven't taken a single course in psychology, which would theoretically be even more relevant to the subject, and yet the gamma doesn't ask about that... because he knows perfectly well such questions aren't relevant.

Quote:

You forgot that using the Stanford prison experiment to conclude anything whatsoever about physics is a non sequitur. Completely different people, methods, standards of evidence, reproducibility (institutional review boards would no doubt prohibit it today), everything.

I didn't forget anything. I'm literally the individual who coined the sarcastic expression "You can trust biologists. Because physicists get amazingly accurate results." As I pointed out in my response, that is like saying that because Charles Ponzi was a completely different person living at a completely different time and using completely different methods than Bernie Madoff, and operating under very different regulatory standards, it is a non sequitur to use his actions to conclude anything about Madoff's.

Physicists are people, subject to the same incentives and motives and character flaws as psychologists. They are corrupted in the same way and for the same reasons. And we already possess considerable evidence that some of them are behaving in exactly the same way, despite their various differences. Just ask Stickwick about how intellectually and scientifically pure academic physicists are these days.

Quote:

Tell us, Vox: have you ever taken a course in physics? Did you pass? Your own rule: 2... If you are asked a direct question relevant to the topic, then you will be expected to answer it in a straightforward and non-evasive manner... I'd bet 10:1 I know the answer but I want it straight from you.

Notice that he is posturing as if he is confident, and yet he doesn't commit himself publicly to a position, for fear that he will be proven wrong. This is textbook gamma posturing. And he is still trying to make the subject about me, rather than about the big news concerning the scientific fraud underlying one of the most famous studies in social science, while trying to use my own rules against me.

Of course, being careless and obsessive like all gammas, he stopped reading once he found what he was looking for and failed to read the whole thing.

29. These Rules may in no case be interpreted contrary to the purposes and principles of Vox Day, as solely determined by Vox Day.

I'm still waiting for him to tell us if he's actually gone there in physics, and how far.

Notice how he's "still waiting" for an answer to a question he never even asked. That's because this is not a relevant question, it is an attempt to "win" the discussion through discrediting and disqualification; he's begun to fear that I have taken a course in physics and is preemptively laying the groundwork for moving the goalposts. Which, of course, is why I ignored the question in the first place. Whenever you successfully answer a gamma's initial attempt to discredit and disqualify you, he will simply respond with another question intended to do the same. This process never ends until a) you kick him out, b) he finally manages to come up with a question that allows him to say HA!, c) you have such impeccable credentials that he falls silent in embarrassment, or d) you ignore him so long that he finally gives up and goes away.

I wasn't the only one who noticed the flashing neon signs saying "warning: gamma at work ahead".

Quote:

In what way is Vox's educational history relevant to the question? Are you always this dishonest, or only when challenged? This is a sneering, gamma-ish, and obviously false assertion of the appeal to authority, and you should know this.

And notice how the gamma always eventually brings the discussion back around to himself. Every single time. Note that literally no one asked about his credentials, his degrees, or what subjects he studied, but that didn't prevent him from telling everyone anyhow.

Quote:

I stopped my formal study of chemistry in my freshman year of college, but I'm still working on it. Autodidact, check. I'm sketching hardware to do practical applications.

After initially trying to ignore his antics to no avail, I opted for Option A and kicked Pale Male out. He's now banned from commenting on the blog, and I plan to similarly ban every single gamma who acts up and subjects us to similar antics. From now on, if anyone even addresses me in a personally challenging or passive-aggressive manner, I'm just going to delete their comments. I have learned over 15 years of daily blogging that it is always a waste of time to even answer such commenters; they add nothing to the discourse, they inevitably attempt to derail the discussion, they try to snarkily disqualify everyone who disagrees with them, and they inevitably start to talk about themselves instead of the subject at hand.

This is not a place for gammas to show the whole world what smart boys they are. This is not a place for anyone to attempt to work out their psychological issues. And above all, this is not a place to waste my time. Everyone is welcome to express THEIR OWN opinion about THE SUBJECT BEING DISCUSSED, they are not permitted to attempt to hijack the microphone or try to elevate their perceived status at my, or anyone else's, expense. If I tell you that you are wrong, you are welcome to try to prove that you were actually correct, but any attempt to attack, disqualify, or discredit me in lieu of an actual defense of your assertions will be nuked on sight.

And while you're welcome to try to correct me if you think I am wrong, you had damn well better cross your t's, dot your i's, and get all of your ducks in a row while you make your case for it, because there are few things I despise more than one of my intellectual inferiors wasting my time by erroneously attempting to "correct" me, especially by citing orthodox information with which I am obviously already familiar. If all you've got is a snarky passive-aggressive statement of opinion that is a prelude to the usual routine, just go away and don't come back. Or at the very least, keep it to yourself. I'm not even remotely interested in playing stupid gamma games.

[AnonymousBosch]

[url=https://twitter.com/perlmutations/status/1011295781653921793][/url]

- Resents someone far more powerful than him

- Wants to show him who the real alpha is

- Passive-aggressively pisses on his hand in private before shaking the guy's hand

- Not caring that 'showing' the alpha meant he had to piss on his own hand

- Never speaks out publicly against him until the Alpha has been removed from power

- Now brags about how he once 'showed' the Alpha

- Doesn't seem to understand that this doesn't make him look heroic, but a weird, cowardly creep who thinks pissing on himself is normal behaviour

What a sad little gamma.

[Icarus]

(06-26-2018 02:01 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

[url=https://twitter.com/perlmutations/status/1011295781653921793][/url]

Harvey Weinstein also comes off as gamma in this story. Two gammas in one tweet!

[AnonymousBosch]

^ No. The Gamma is the one pissing on his own hand. The Alpha is the one with the power to make or break the careers of the actresses who willingly-chose to sleep with him, and kept right on doing it even after he shook the Gamma's hand, with the plan borne of the Gamma's falsely-believed superior intelligence when enacted having zero effect on the alpha. It doesn't matter if Weinstein had zero game - he's simply a man who never needed to learn it due to his Alpha status. I've known Rugby Players who are as terrible with women as Weinstein, but the women don't care, because they want to bang him and be seen with him.

[Icarus]

(06-26-2018 07:41 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

^ No. The Gamma is the one pissing on his own hand.

I don't see anything alpha about demanding that a semi-famous actor shake one's hand at a charity event. Reeks of approval-seeking. It is one thing to seek the endorsement of superiors, it is another to seek the endorsement of inferiors.

Weinstein is a classic gamma according to your very own definition in past posts on this thread. Someone who seeks power over others in order to exact revenge on the world that rejected him in his formative years. Compare that to Bill Clinton, who is charismatic to the point of extracting others' submission without coercion.

[Alsos]

(06-26-2018 08:39 AM)Icarus Wrote:  

(06-26-2018 07:41 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

^ No. The Gamma is the one pissing on his own hand.

I don't see anything alpha about demanding that a semi-famous actor shake one's hand at a charity event. Reeks of approval-seeking. It is one thing to seek the endorsement of superiors, it is another to seek the endorsement of inferiors.

Weinstein is a classic gamma according to your very own definition in past posts on this thread. Someone who seeks power over others in order to exact revenge on the world that rejected him in his formative years. Compare that to Bill Clinton, who is charismatic to the point of extracting others' submission without coercion.

Nobody questions whether Perlman is making up the incident in question? That's a huge gamma tell: the fantasy about having the "perfect comeback" after the fact. And in extreme cases, focusing so much on a person or an incident they handled poorly that they convince themselves that "what I should have said/done" is "what I said/did" - they brainwash themselves, editing their memory of experienced reality into something fictional but flattering in order to relieve their shame over a perceived humiliation.

Notice in this instance that Perlman never said anything publicly about the incident in question at the time, and that by its nature there is no way to prove or disprove his claim. It's the perfect "perfect comeback", because none of the potential witnesses can possibly call him on it. The outre nature of his claimed action itself marks it as something he imagined but didn't carry out - like loser teens 'plotting' to put Ben-Gay in the football players' jockstraps.

And that doesn't even get into how ironically cowardly his story is. It's not only that it's a passive-aggressive action taken at face value, but it's cowardly in that he's only telling it now when a) the target can't retaliate against him for it, and b) he thinks he can earn status/virtue signal off the #metoo fad. Then there's the very real possibility that he's not merely virtue signaling here, but attempting to protect himself from the frothing mob by establishing (phony) 'cred' to blunt any sex-pest accusations that might be made against him.

So yeah, in short, this has gamma written all over it at several levels.