[Wutang]

I'm guessing Taleb is somewhere in the 130-40 range which make him at least top 5%. He clearly has high level mathematical skills based on what his PhD was in and the work he is doing now and he's a good writer as well so his verbal skills are high. But he can still relate to the average taxi-driver on the street (and he criticizes IYIs who aren't able to do so) so he probably doesn't have autistic level high IQ.

[Wutang]

I got a chuckle out of this; NNT talking about blocking the guy who wrote "Sex At Dawn"

[url=https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1081348598493839360][/url]

[SamuelBRoberts]

Whether Taleb is right or not, he's certainly extremely entertaining.

[Ocelot]

(01-05-2019 12:51 PM)Wutang Wrote:  

I'm guessing Taleb is somewhere in the 130-40 range which make him at least top 5%. He clearly has high level mathematical skills based on what his PhD was in and the work he is doing now and he's a good writer as well so his verbal skills are high. But he can still relate to the average taxi-driver on the street (and he criticizes IYIs who aren't able to do so) so he probably doesn't have autistic level high IQ.

This is a common misconception: high IQ and autism are not even remotely synonymous. Hell, the majority of autistic people have low IQs. Idiot savants are called that because... well, they're idiots—outside of the limited type of intelligence they extraordinarily excel at.

The downsides I mentioned before about being in the 150+ range is not something intrinsic to being that intelligent, it's just a trend because of the developmental effect of growing up around people who learn everything three times slower than you, and from going through an education system designed for them, not you.

This leads most children in this bracket to avoid peer socialisation, since they have nothing in common with their peers (when you were 15, would hanging around with 6 year olds sound like a fun way to pass time?), and instead socialise with adults for stimulus. Except adults are not their peers, until they're grown up, when suddenly they are and they don't know how to socialise with them because they've never learned how.

And then there's school. Imagine, as an adult, having to sit and learn long addition, and what nouns are, for an entire year. It's not "easy", it's torture, and the fact you can still coast through all the exams means you're not being stretched or forced to exert yourself, so by the time many of these kids reach actually challenging levels of work, they don't have the grit and discipline of their peers, and often have simply lost interest in education. They're easily smart enough to understand the material, but can't keep up with the workload. I've seen it a million times. I don't intend to dox myself here, but let's just say I was spared this outcome because of extraordinary circumstances, and the intervention of my parents.

The point is, bad socialisation and lack of discipline are not autism, and neither of them is a necessary consequence of high intelligence. There are plenty of well-socialised men with great minds, who are also able to interact with ordinary folks just fine. In fact they often seem to display the greatest love for the ordinary man—look at Richard Feynman, or Donald Trump.

The problem with most people's idea of what "high IQ" means, is that people who build an identity around their intelligence usually have very little else going for them, so there's a selection bias in who they're being exposed to. For a start, well-socialised people tend to realise that telling someone your IQ is a bit like telling them your income, it's not something people appreciate... except gold diggers... and there are no IQ diggers. I've said it before in another thread, but Mensa is basically an organisation of trainspotters for this reason. There's also a selection bias in the kinds of fields people specifically associate with "high intelligence". If I tell you a theoretical physicist has an IQ of 145, you won't be any more surprised than if I tell you he's autistic. Some guy who built a location-independent income from drop shipping and teaching English abroad, and spends his days gaming in SEA might happen to have an IQ of 160, but he's unlikely to factor into your image of what "high IQ" constitutes, because it's not his defining characteristic.

Anyway I'm ducking out of this thread until Taleb gets animated about a more interesting topic again. No matter what your opinion of its efficacy, I think we can all agree IQ is one of the most boring things to debate.

[Maciano]

Taleb is an overrated buffoon.

IQ is real, Nassim. Deal with it. Go choke on your fat tail ergodic black swan convexity.

[Oberrheiner]

(01-05-2019 04:24 PM)Ocelot Wrote:  

And then there's school. Imagine, as an adult, having to sit and learn long addition, and what nouns are, for an entire year. It's not "easy", it's torture

Not only that, but the whole sitting the whole day in front of a figure of authority whose words you are supposed to learn by heart without ever questioning them (or even just asking for more details) unless you want to get punished, well that's a concept which is just totally alien to some.

[worldwidetraveler]

I have a honest question. What is the point of IQ? What purpose does it serve in the grand scheme of things?

I see a lot of people arguing about it but never really understood why it is such a big deal.

[SamuelBRoberts]

(01-05-2019 05:00 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

I have a honest question. What is the point of IQ? What purpose does it serve in the grand scheme of things?

I see a lot of people arguing about it but never really understood why it is such a big deal.

Well, for instance, you know that countries with low average IQs tend to be shitholes.
So we know that if we let a lot of people in from those countries, they're not going to make America better, they'll turn it into a shithole.

Which is pretty good to know.

[Wutang]

(01-05-2019 04:24 PM)Ocelot Wrote:  

(01-05-2019 12:51 PM)Wutang Wrote:  

I'm guessing Taleb is somewhere in the 130-40 range which make him at least top 5%. He clearly has high level mathematical skills based on what his PhD was in and the work he is doing now and he's a good writer as well so his verbal skills are high. But he can still relate to the average taxi-driver on the street (and he criticizes IYIs who aren't able to do so) so he probably doesn't have autistic level high IQ.

The downsides I mentioned before about being in the 150+ range is not something intrinsic to being that intelligent, it's just a trend because of the developmental effect of growing up around people who learn everything three times slower than you, and from going through an education system designed for them, not you.

This leads most children in this bracket to avoid peer socialisation, since they have nothing in common with their peers (when you were 15, would hanging around with 6 year olds sound like a fun way to pass time?), and instead socialise with adults for stimulus. Except adults are not their peers, until they're grown up, when suddenly they are and they don't know how to socialise with them because they've never learned how.

When I said the word "autistic", I didn't mean literally having autism. I was using it it in the way that it's commonly used as a slang word on the internet, ie. being socially retarded and awkward. I don't disagree with your reasons for why super high IQ people would be "autistic" in the way I'm using the term.

And also to clarify my comment on relating to taxi drivers, I've heard it mentioned a few times that apparently if there is one deviation between the IQ scores of two individuals, communication is going to be difficult. The fact that Taleb can get along with your every day taxi driver, barber, man on the streets seemed to indicate to me that while he is very intelligent (an IQ in the low ranges of the 130s is still elite), he's not so high up there to make communication difficult. In fact, he seems to enjoy being around these of average people more. It's the people in the 110s and 120s that irritate him the most.

[Ocelot]

(01-05-2019 07:06 PM)Wutang Wrote:  

And also to clarify my comment on relating to taxi drivers, I've heard it mentioned a few times that apparently if there is one deviation between the IQ scores of two individuals, communication is going to be difficult. The fact that Taleb can get along with your every day taxi driver, barber, man on the streets seemed to indicate to me that while he is very intelligent (an IQ in the low ranges of the 130s is still elite), he's not so high up there to make communication difficult. In fact, he seems to enjoy being around these of average people more. It's the people in the 110s and 120s that seem to irritate him the most.

I lied about ducking out, one more post. The supposed communication gap isn't because it's hard to communicate with ordinary people: it's trivially easy. Again, watch videos of Richard Feynman if you want to see what someone who's both well-adjusted and extraordinarily intelligent communicating with the average person looked like. He was a charismatic speaker, humorous and enthusiastic about everything, and seemed to derive endless enjoyment from people—ordinary people. But I doubt there were many people who could communicate with him on his level.

That's where the gap is, at least for the ones who aren't poorly socialised or literally autistic. But I'm pretty sure everyone across the IQ spectrum will, on average, derive more enjoyment from talking to taxi drivers than midwit soft science/humanities graduates —honestly I'd be extremely surprised if Taleb scored less than 140 in a test.

[griffinmill]

Has anyone read Black Swan? I finish 95% of the books I start, so it's saying something that I couldn't get through it. But made it to the last quarter, which I'm proud of. Its premise could have been explored on a napkin. What we get is a mental masturbatory, repetitive yawn-fest for 400 pages.

I always lose respect for people who use the block button on Twatter a little too liberally. That's for feminists and crazy leftists who can't argue their point because it's built on a house of cards. In Taleb's case it looks like petty SJW grandstanding to disassociate themselves from the wrongthinkers. In other words, it's pathetic.

[Wutang]

He uses the block button on Twitter very liberally against everyone. If anything he has blocked a lot SJWs and IYI types rather than "wrongthinkers". He also was generating lots of hate when he called out some British feminist historian for BSing about the racial demographics of the Roman Empire for SJW "diversity" reasons.

[TigerMandingo]

[SamuelBRoberts]

Meh, I like Quintus a lot but I don't think that's right.

Average national IQ has a heavy correlation with almost everything that makes a society good to live in.
Molyneux's right to be real concerned about it, and I think he has every right to feel "fear and insecurity" that his country's gonna go down the shitter because they're letting in people from races with lower average IQs.

Wish I still had my twitter account, could say that directly to QC, but meh.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

But then why are half of the world's top 30 countries by national IQ drowning in idiocy to such an extent that most of them will be extinct in a few decades?

And please don't say it's the Jews, surely all that IQ is supposed to make a nation too shrewd and discerning to fall for that.

[Teekay]

I have devoured all of Taleb's book, without claiming I understand all the math. And I will read whatever he publishes next.

In light of his passion for Twitter fights and constant negativity - calling whoever disagrees with him an idiot - I hit the Unfollow button. There's so much fake drama and negativity all around, and I am vigilantly purging that from view. I believe one can be thoughtful, intelligent, and even provokative without the negativity.

The recent debate about IQ was just the tipping point. He even dressed down Jordan Peterson like he was nobody. Petty and counter-productive.

[Thomas Jackson]

(01-06-2019 04:18 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

But then why are half of the world's top 30 countries by national IQ drowning in idiocy to such an extent that most of them will be extinct in a few decades?

And please don't say it's the Jews, surely all that IQ is supposed to make a nation too shrewd and discerning to fall for that.

You are conflating things that are not related. Northern Europe is the least tribal place in the world - this leads to a high trust, individualistic society. That makes them more apt to buy into equality, immigration, etc. It also led to all sorts of achievements and conquering the world. This is a strength in a homogeneous society, but becomes a critical weakness in a diverse one.

Taleb really is acting like an emotional child, he has some good ideas but I have no respect for him anymore. He acts like an SJW, constantly making ad hominems and calling people racist. Sorry your precious middle eastern "greeks" aren't that bright on average.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

(01-06-2019 08:09 AM)Thomas Jackson Wrote:  

(01-06-2019 04:18 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

But then why are half of the world's top 30 countries by national IQ drowning in idiocy to such an extent that most of them will be extinct in a few decades?

And please don't say it's the Jews, surely all that IQ is supposed to make a nation too shrewd and discerning to fall for that.

You are conflating things that are not related. Northern Europe is the least tribal place in the world - this leads to a high trust, individualistic society. That makes them more apt to buy into equality, immigration, etc. It also led to all sorts of achievements and conquering the world. This is a strength in a homogeneous society, but becomes a critical weakness in a diverse one.

How are they not related? High-IQ Northern European countries are on the road to extinction and their high-IQ has done nothing to save them. As seen in their examples, high IQ:

- Doesn't make you future-oriented
- Doesn't stop you from ceasing to reproduce
- Doesn't stop you from importing neighbors who hate you
- Doesn't stop you from letting others leech from you
- Doesn't stop you from alienating friends and family
- Doesn't stop you from holding utterly retarded beliefs
- Doesn't stop you from being gullible and suicidally naive

BONUS:
- Doesn't even help you become aware of your critical weaknesses

SUPER BONUS:
- Ultimately doesn't stop you from going extinct

Shit, it's such an amazing evolutionary trait that its bearers will soon disappear. Why are we then obsessing about it? Or following the IQ-cult's logic, should we be saying "Oh dear, according to standardized tests developed by a random psychologist 70 years ago, Koreans have a mean national IQ 7 points higher than us so they should be ruling the world"?

Don't get me wrong, I love smart people and am all for praising/fostering high IQ individuals. However, fetishization of "national IQ" is akin to a prodigy who wastes his amazing talents on proving how amazing he really is. Until that changes, nothing will get better for Northern European countries - or for any country in a similar situation.

[Maciano]

(01-05-2019 05:00 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

I have a honest question. What is the point of IQ? What purpose does it serve in the grand scheme of things?

I see a lot of people arguing about it but never really understood why it is such a big deal.

Stupid people accomplish nothing. They make the world horrible.

What kind of IQ do you think Einstein, Beethoven, James Watt, Shakespeare, Kubrick, Maxwell & Henry Ford had? Low or high?

A hint: superhigh intelligence.

What do you think is good for society, to have many or few of such people in your midst? I'd wager: many. The more, the better.

[TigerMandingo]

(01-06-2019 10:46 AM)Maciano Wrote:  

Stupid people accomplish nothing.

Nah that's bullshit. The Kardashians? Pro athletes? George Bush?!

Like Quintus said, what's more important is persistence, or the ability to market yourself really well.

[SamuelBRoberts]

(01-06-2019 09:00 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Shit, it's such an amazing evolutionary trait that its bearers will soon disappear. Why are we then obsessing about it? Or following the IQ-cult's logic, should we be saying "Oh dear, according to standardized tests developed by a random psychologist 70 years ago, Koreans have a mean national IQ 7 points higher than us so they should be ruling the world"?

Never seen anybody say the guys with the higher IQ should be "ruling the world", at least, not unless I go back to Kipling.
There's not a lot of White-Man's-Burden style imperialists left these days.

What national/racial IQ is, is a useful counterargument to the idea that if we let infinite amounts of South Americans in, we're going to get a shiny multicultural techno-utopia. Instead, we're gonna get Brazil without the hot chicks, and SJWs instead of carnivale. A nation of Brazilian-style favelas, except instead of big-booty chicks with loose morals you have scowling obese SJWs lording over you, is something I want to avoid, so I'm glad to have this counterargument available.

It's also a useful counterargument to the idea that American blacks perform more poorly than whites in aggregate, despite the fact that we've been trying every advantage we can think of for something like 40-50 years now, because of invisible "systemic racism". I'd rather not lose out on say, a promotion or a job, to a less-qualified black candidate in the name of affirmative action, so I'm glad to have this counterargument available. (Not that I could possibly share it with my boss without getting fired, but hey, it's good that it's out there.)

On a smaller level, IQ tests are a great way of figuring out things like who should go in the advanced track at school. I'm not sure if they have this where you're at, hell, I'm not sure they have it where I am anymore, but back when I was in school they had a gifted class for like 6-10 students who would be given advanced schooling. Called it a "gifted program", if I remember right. All students took a test to determine their IQ, and the ones who scored particularly high were sent to the class. I got in, and I benefited from it a lot. My grades were pretty shit, so if they'd just picked the 10 students with the highest GPA I would've been passed over. So that was, at least from my perspective, a pretty good use of knowing somebody's IQ.

It's good for lots of stuff like that.

[worldwidetraveler]

(01-06-2019 10:46 AM)Maciano Wrote:  

Stupid people accomplish nothing. They make the world horrible.

What kind of IQ do you think Einstein, Beethoven, James Watt, Shakespeare, Kubrick, Maxwell & Henry Ford had? Low or high?

A hint: superhigh intelligence.

What do you think is good for society, to have many or few of such people in your midst? I'd wager: many. The more, the better.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but I appreciate the reply to my question.

It's an interesting statement.

I'm trying to understand how people are associating low IQ with laziness or as you put it accomplishing nothing.

Maybe they are not lazy, just not intelligent enough to accomplish something?

From a quick Google search, a 70 or below is considered low. I'm assuming you mean the average person of 70 or below accomplishes nothing. I take average because you will always have some outliers that do accomplish stuff.

You don't think there are any social issues that are also in play when it comes to accomplishing nothing?

For example...

I've seen it said that it is extremely difficult to rise above your social/economic class. Like going from poverty to middle class or middle class to rich. I am a believer of that just from my own experiences.

I do know people on the lower rung don't put much emphasis on education. I think that is one of the reasons people have a hard time getting out of poverty. Sure the education is there, but the emphasis on getting educated is just as important.

Then middle class has the emphasis on education, but still has limited resources to pull themselves out of the middle class. This is were I was and understand the resources part dealing with getting my own business to profitability.

Though many of these obstacles can be overcome through persistence as TigerMandigo pointed out. I don't think I could have come as far as I did if it wasn't for being persistent not to mention all the sacrifices I made. I can understand someone not wanting to go through what I did. Again, people in the upper class wouldn't have had to make the same sacrifices because they have more resources. I had to make up for the lack of resources through persistence and sacrifices in other areas in my life.

So is the average person, in poverty, a low IQ person? What do you think the middle range accomplishes that the low IQ people don't?

I'm trying to work out how IQ is being singled out as the cause when there seems to be many variables at play

[Maciano]

(01-06-2019 12:50 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

(01-06-2019 10:46 AM)Maciano Wrote:  

Stupid people accomplish nothing.

Nah that's bullshit. The Kardashians? Pro athletes? George Bush?!

Like Quintus said, what's more important is persistence, or the ability to market yourself really well.

The Kardashians aren't stupid, their father was a high profile lawyer. I'll bet you they'll test pretty high on a test. George Bush jr also tested high in college.

Athletes do not compete on IQ, but athletic ability. Among athletes the smarter ones tend to have longer careers and fewer injuries. You should see what happens to NBA player fortunes after their careers, they quite often lose it all. Smarter athletes often do better post-career.

I don't know Quintus, but he's ignorant of IQ research. That's for sure.

WTF is this? I thought this was a redpill forum, are we seriously debating whether or not IQ counts??!! Goddamn look around you, open your eyes. Smart people have way better lives than dumb people; they live longer, they are less often obese, they are less often alcoholics; they work out more, read more books, get divorced less, save more money, have better grades from high school to college, and beat their children less often, on and on -- ALL ON AVERAGE.

Note: not saying stupid people are bad, nobody chooses their genes, but of course intelligence counts for your quality of life and life outcomes.Taleb is lying to you!

[worldwidetraveler]

(01-06-2019 04:20 PM)Maciano Wrote:  

Note: not saying stupid people are bad, nobody chooses their genes, but of course intelligence counts for your quality of life and life outcomes.Taleb is lying to you!

I take it you don't believe in the studies that state poverty lowers your intelligence.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/mak...telligence

Quote:

“Poor individuals, working through a difficult financial problem,” Walton writes in her study, experience “a cognitive strain that’s equivalent to a 13-point deficit in IQ or a full night’s sleep lost.”

The article makes it look like IQ isn't fixed and there are external factors that can have an affect on our intelligence.

[Maciano]

(01-06-2019 04:35 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

(01-06-2019 04:20 PM)Maciano Wrote:  

Note: not saying stupid people are bad, nobody chooses their genes, but of course intelligence counts for your quality of life and life outcomes.Taleb is lying to you!

I take it you don't believe in the studies that state poverty lowers your intelligence.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/mak...telligence

Quote:

“Poor individuals, working through a difficult financial problem,” Walton writes in her study, experience “a cognitive strain that’s equivalent to a 13-point deficit in IQ or a full night’s sleep lost.”

The article makes it look like IQ isn't fixed and there are external factors that can have an affect on our intelligence.

Around 1900 Jews & Norwegians arrived dirt-poor in the US, like illiterate and underfed stuff. In the 1920s Jews were so incredibly successful that Ivy League universities implemented quotas of 10%. If they hadn't Jews would have been as overrepresented in academia in 20yrs as they have been since the 60s without quotas.

And, tell me, when you think of a bum, a junkie or a jailbird, do you think of a tall blond introverted man? You know, the Norwegian type. No. Norwegians assimilated so fast and so complete that their phenotype is now a moral crime according to intersectionalist activists.

So, no, I don't believe poverty lowers IQ because that's been proven a myth for decades. You could also read lots of books or studies confirming this.

Look, I don't feel like educating people on a redpill forum on things which are easily reasearchable with google, and, by experiencing daily life. There's nothing to win for me by spending time on people who haven't read one book about a subject.