[Oblivion77]

Hi Folk, I need some input from the advanced PUA (Roosh, MIXX, Tuth, Samseau, Gmac etc) on how to handle this one. Solid 9. Hot chick, won Miss Houston 2009, 3rd at Miss Texas 2010. Very friendly and outgoing, good personality that I dig, not guarded at all, Dominican-American but, obviously, a complete tease, non-committal, flaky, self-absorbed and extremely busy. It would be a good bang but I'm afraid I'm just giving validation to a chick that wants to play hard to get.

Facts:
- She asked me to go out for coffee (hahaha) after I sent a restart text, and I redirected it to drinks despite the fact she doesnt drink alcohol. She agreed. However it was complicated to say the least to get her to stick to the plan.
- I'm set to go out on a date with her this Thursday, but once again I have not been able to lock down a place, therefore I wont be surprised AT ALL, if she asks to reschedule on Thursday when I ping her to say "see you tonight at xxxxx lounge" - she has done it twice before.
- Both times I chastised her in a humorous way, to no avail. She doesnt bend over easily in front of a "U better start thinking of some outstanding way to make it up to me". The only time I cracked her shield is when I used my goodbye text technique after she took too long to respond to an invitation. In that case she immediately got back in touch with me asking to get together the following day for drinks. It didnt happen as I didnt want to go to Hollywood during rush hour.

If I meet her I want it to be on my terms, no coffee, no dinner, no 30 min drive. Why? Because this girl got game, and is clearly used to string guys along (the night I met her she told me how she had 5 suitors and went into details with their beta behavior to win her over). Therefore I want her on my turf, so that I can make a move, and not risk I am just entertaining her for one evening. It is one of those cases were I'm very tempted to cancel on her first. Then call her a few days later and suggest drinks on my territory. So, unless she complies with all the requests, I would move on. Thoughts?

Yes, my diarrhea of the mouth post seem to imply I've already lost this battle - but I'm curious to hear how the veterans of the forums would handle it. I have other solid chicks in the roster right now, so walking away or one-itis arent a factor.

[Vicious]

If you indeed have a shot at her... putting this up so plainly on a semi-public forum (indexed by google) is not likely to do you any favors.

[Roosh]

Maybe change the subject of this thread? She probably googles herself from time to time.

My guess is she flaked on the first date and you're trying to get it back on track. Unfortunately, if a girl flakes on date one then you have a minuscule chance of ever getting her out. I think you understand these odds.

Unless you have mutual friends or run into her regularly at some bar, there is very little you can do as you already did at least one restart attempt. You've passed the point where it's hard not to appear needy. Therefore I think it's dead, but maybe the other guys will disagree. Here is the hail mary option that depends on a whole lot of luck:

On a random Monday or Wednesday night around 6pm, ask her what she's doing and suggest a same-night meeting at a "new" place you wanted to check out.

I don't expect success from it though.

[Caligula]

A preemptive cancelation on your part could warm her up, but she has so many options that it's just as likely to make you fall off the radar.

It's risky but with a potentially high reward in you reasserting yourself.

[jariel]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionar...1313533604

[Caligula]

(08-16-2011 05:27 PM)jariel Wrote:  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionar...1313533604

When banging girls of that calibre/status discretion is very important.

Mixx broke it down nicely: http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-4843-p...l#pid62314

[Oblivion77]

(08-16-2011 04:49 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

Maybe change the subject of this thread? She probably googles herself from time to time.

My guess is she flaked on the first date and you're trying to get it back on track. Unfortunately, if a girl flakes on date one then you have a minuscule chance of ever getting her out. I think you understand these odds.

Unless you have mutual friends or run into her regularly at some bar, there is very little you can do as you already did at least one restart attempt. You've passed the point where it's hard not to appear needy. Therefore I think it's dead, but maybe the other guys will disagree. Here is the hail mary option that depends on a whole lot of luck:

On a random Monday or Wednesday night around 6pm, ask her what she's doing and suggest a same-night meeting at a "new" place you wanted to check out.

I don't expect success from it though.

Wise advice. Thread title changed to something more subtle. What a shame I cant change my nickname from Oblivion to Mr Subtle . But thanks everyone for the suggestions. I will leave the date as it is and see if it goes thru or not. But to better rephrase and to make my personal case more general - ergo relevant to other people on the forum: do you usually go out with a girl if she insists on calling the shots on the date logistics? (location, time etc). It is a pattern I have noticed with 8-10 rated chicks.

I tend to never compromise on these things. I just dont negotiate, as from my own experience without controlling the frame it becomes too difficult to seal the deal. You risk getting lost in the moment, losing sight of the goal. So I tend to fight battles I can win, and in cases where she wants to meet for coffee or at a restaurant (to get dinner on date #1) or at a bar where a friend of her works, I always decline.

Do experienced players comply with such requests, ONCE IN A WHILE, and if so, is your success rate still high?

I usually do my same routine (places-wise) for every chick, as suggested by Roosh. And it works well. Today the 9 of this post, wanted to meet me a certain place that was far and not very conducive to good game, therefore I told her to come to my area, well aware she could have asked to resched. She did. We are now set to meet on Thursday.
The reality is tonight I rather go out with another chick in my roster, a solid 7,5, where I control the frame.
EDIT: Caligula, thanks for the link. I knew that MIXX must have had some dissertation thesis material on this subject

[Tuthmosis]

(08-16-2011 04:49 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

On a random Monday or Wednesday night around 6pm, ask her what she's doing and suggest a same-night meeting at a "new" place you wanted to check out.

I do essentially this same thing on a "second," hail mary restart attempt: some sort of last-minute, "spontaneous" trip. I used something like this the last time I came across a situation like this: "my presentation tonite was cancelled and I'm going to go check out this new spot I heard good things about. How spontaneous are you?"

The problem with high-status 9s (versus just random hot girls) is that they're used to high-profile events. Coffee at Joe's Diner or even drinks at a nice little bar just doesn't excite them that much. Even if you made a big impression with your mind-blowing game and crispy look, these chicks get hit up by so many high-value males that they're easily distracted.

If you could be like, "my friend's art gallery is doing a small private show for VIPs on Tuesday. Mostly industry people. Let me know ASAP if you want to come with me," you could more easily get a solid reply from her. But with us regular dudes, we have to manufacture this kind of situation. I don't know about you guys, but most of my friends are in low places. But if you have a friend who's a DJ or some other bullshit status position, invent a "special event" and do your best to pump it up. Your friends better be cool though, lest they embarrass you.

Final note: Ask Roosh if he's willing to replace the following string "Miss Houston 2009, 3rd at Miss Texas 2010" with "several recent beauty pageants" in Post #1. If this girl is Googling herself, she's likely looking up something along these lines. The pictures could probably go too. We get that she's hot.

[Samseau]

Well, let's see if I can offer anything to you.

1. This chick is pretty much dead in the water. Live and learn from this. You've got one more chance but don't be surprised when it fails. Always keep zero expectations with any girl.

2. I'm not rigid on what I do for dates. I usually tell them it's a surprise and take them for a sushi then to my favorite lounge. But just last week, for example, I went rock-climbing for a first date! It was her idea, and she drove me to the place! I originally called her up to run my usual first date routine, but then she called me back and asked if I wanted to go rock-climbing instead at some rock-climbing center. Now, it is true that there was no possibility for alcohol. But I really liked the idea of rock-climbing. So I said, "Hmmmm.... yeah, sounds cool. Let's do it." And it was a terrific date! Afterwards when she dropped me off at my apt I offered her some of my step-mom's good food which she came inside for. I poured her some cheap wine and it was on like donkey-kong.

The lesson here is not to be too rigid with dates. If she offers a really cool date idea, why not go with it? Judge her idea harshly, but if it's a good one, why not go with it?

3. Stop texting girls for dates. Call them up. Text-game is overplayed, girls are picking up the phone again. Amazing how quickly this changed over the summer. If I can get a girl on the phone, I get the date. A text? No guarantee with anything.

4. You should have NEVER looked up her modeling pictures. That will automatically start the pedestalization process in your sub-conscious mind, and she will have the upper-hand before the battle has ever started.

[Oblivion77]

(08-16-2011 06:31 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(08-16-2011 04:49 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

On a random Monday or Wednesday night around 6pm, ask her what she's doing and suggest a same-night meeting at a "new" place you wanted to check out.

I do essentially this same thing on a "second," hail mary restart attempt: some sort of last-minute, "spontaneous" trip. I used something like this the last time I came across a situation like this: "my presentation tonite was cancelled and I'm going to go check out this new spot I heard good things about. How spontaneous are you?"

The problem with high-status 9s (versus just random hot girls) is that they're used to high-profile events. Coffee at Joe's Diner or even drinks at a nice little bar just doesn't excite them that much. Even if you made a big impression with your mind-blowing game and crispy look, these chicks get hit up by so many high-value males that they're easily distracted.

If you could be like, "my friend's art gallery is doing a small private show for VIPs on Tuesday. Mostly industry people. Let me know ASAP if you want to come with me," you could more easily get a solid reply from her. But with us regular dudes, we have to manufacture this kind of situation. I don't know about you guys, but most of my friends are in low places. But if you have a friend who's a DJ or some other bullshit status position, invent a "special event" and do your best to pump it up. Your friends better be cool though, lest they embarrass you.

Final note: Ask Roosh if he's willing to replace the following string "Miss Houston 2009, 3rd at Miss Texas 2010" with "several recent beauty pageants" in Post #1. If this girl is Googling herself, she's likely looking up something along these lines. The pictures could probably go too. We get that she's hot.

Thanks Tuthmosis. If the date doesnt happen I will definitely use yours and Roosh restart spontaneous text as a final attempt. It seems very smooth. I will invite her to some industry event, like the screening of the next new movie I get a pass for. I happen to work in the movie biz in Hollywood and wanna-be actresses like this girl, tend to dig this stuff. Perhaps it is actually the main reason why she got interested in me...beside my fiendish good looks, my pronounced accent and of course, my great modesty.

[Oblivion77]

(08-16-2011 06:45 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

The lesson here is not to be too rigid with dates. If she offers a really cool date idea, why not go with it? Judge her idea harshly, but if it's a good one, why not go with it?

Cool. This is the matter I wanted to tackle. Thanks for your two cents. I'll be more flexible, if and only if, the chick's suggestion is actually interesting. As lets be frank, the invitation you got to go rock-climbing was pretty appealing. It wasnt an ambush of sort, neither a curved ball to neuterize the date. You werent in front of such a major dilemma. It sounded fun and you made the best out of it. Bravo.

Unfortunately the usual invitations I get from 8-10 rated chicks in LA, tend to reinforce the existence of an underlying power struggle between guys and girls to see who controls the frame. It is more about which area of town to meet in (close to hers, on the other bloody side of town) or is an attempt to "check out that new super fancy French restaurant in Beverly Hills I heard so much about" etc. Conventional, boring, expensive and anti-game choices. All stuff that any non-chimp man should stay well clear of. There are plenty of loaded providers in this town. They can take miss 9 to the fancy restaurant on date #1. I wont. But I will definitely open up on the possibility of deviating from my usual dating routine.

[Dakota]

This girl is beautiful. I actually really hope this works out. My only fear is that you said she's a wanna be actress and I'm guessing she knows you work in the movie biz so I really just hope she's not agreeing to meet up just to network. I hate a lot of actresses that seem 100% interested in dating but really are just networking. Having said that, what kind of advice does anyone have for turning the tables on her and smashing if it does turn out to be a networking "date"?

Also, I don't know if you talked about it somewhere else, but it would be great to hear where and how you opened her.

[Oblivion77]

(08-16-2011 07:24 PM)Dakota Wrote:  

This girl is beautiful. I actually really hope this works out. My only fear is that you said she's a wanna be actress and I'm guessing she knows you work in the movie biz so I really just hope she's not agreeing to meet up just to network. I hate a lot of actresses that seem 100% interested in dating but really are just networking. Having said that, what kind of advice does anyone have for turning the tables on her and smashing if it does turn out to be a networking "date"?

Also, I don't know if you talked about it somewhere else, but it would be great to hear where and how you opened her.

I opened her at a hotel bar on sunset boulevard. I was there with a girl friend of mine (solid 8, just a friend though, but the 9 didnt know that at the time). I simply told her she looked like a Brazilian friend of mine. She was quite friendly, she is not a guarded person. I got the sense though that she is just very strategic about what she does. That's why to avoid the networking-friend-zone conundrum I made very clear that "I reached my quota of female friends for this year. So you either wait for next year to hang with me in a safe way, or you come out sooner, but at your own risk. Just be aware that if my mum back home doesnt approve your application to date me, I will walk away without a word. And she is very protective of her firstborn. Cross fingers." I faked texting mum back in Italy. Considering how "mammoni" Italians men are considered (attached to mum), she cracked up.

EDIT: dakota, it is true that plenty of actresses want to network, but then you use the same strategy on her: social circle infiltration. You dont go after her but you do become her friend...and then meet her equally hot friends - your real target. Years ago a buddy of mine used this stratagem to meet more models: he had to rent a room in a nice house in the Hollywood Hills. He wanted to meet models and always complained he never met those types in bars, clubs, no matter how fancy those places were. Well, he faxed over and over his rent-a-room ad to several casting agencies around town. Solely casting agencies. Soon enough plenty of models that just moved to LA started to come over to see the room. He picked the hottest. He became her friend. He had a foot in the door with all her model friends.
Veni, vidi, vici.

[Oblivion77]

(08-16-2011 06:45 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

1. This chick is pretty much dead in the water. Live and learn from this. You've got one more chance but don't be surprised when it fails. Always keep zero expectations with any girl.

UPDATE: just a quick line to give closure to the topic, providing an update. Samseau's prediction was indeed correct. As I expected.

I did meet the chick for breakfast last week though. She was leaving town that evening, flying to Texas, so I decided that it was better to meet her en passant, for a quick breakfast close to my office, rather than not meet her at all. Breakfast went well...I mean, for how well a breakfast could go. Honestly, I wasnt in the mood to game her at 9am and perhaps she sensed my lack of interest.

Anyway, she texted me after the breakfast telling me how she was glad we met and how we should meet again upon her return.

The following week I texted her after she came back to town and got very prompt enthusiastic responses from her.

Texted her again two days later, asking her out. Never heard back.

I might try a restart CALL in a week or two - as during breakfast she said something to the extent of "texts are an easy way out and a serious guy would call" - but still, I think this lead is dead.

NEXT!

[Samseau]

(08-29-2011 12:08 PM)Oblivion77 Wrote:  

She texted me after the breakfast telling me how she was glad we met and how we should meet again upon her return.

The following week I texted her after she came back to town and got very prompt enthusiastic responses from her.

Texted her again two days later, asking her out. Never heard back.

NEXT!

When you texted her after she returned, you should have immediately asked her out somewhere. Or CALLED her. Calling her would have been the better move. You've already had a few dates, try calling her. I know a lot of women prefer calling to texting. Even younger girls. And it's 100x easier to get a date over the phone than it is over text. No bullshit "waiting for a text over the next 15 hours".

But yeah, whatever. It's fucked now. I hope you've been gaming new prospects while she was away!

[Oblivion77]

Quote:

When you texted her after she returned, you should have immediately asked her out somewhere.

But yeah, whatever. It's fucked now. I hope you've been gaming new prospects while she was away!

I agree. I texted her and then walked in an underground bar where I got no cell coverage for hours. Only when I finally left I received her enthusiastic response message sent right after mine, hours earlier, but it was 2am by then.
Anyway, yes, I was out with another girl. One measly reputation point online doesnt mean omega in the real world

In the future I'll call more often though - that is indeed something I am trying to change in my behavior. It helps to cut through the bs and let you know where you stand. Either the target is in or out.

[iknowexactly]

On the breakfast date she TOLD You that a serious guy would call. This is an invitation to be more aggressive instead of text. She was specifically requesting a more intimate form of communication.

After pretty clearly getting the indication she wants a call, you texted her; which is in effect a distancing move by you ( going to a less intimate form of communication.)

I've had girls do this to me-- I call and leave a message, and they send a [distancing] email back.

As Marshall McLuhan said in the 60's and it's still true, "the medium is the message." A "cool" medium like texting ( VERY cool, cold really) shows much less desire for real emotional interaction.

My impression is this very beautiful, but still minority member girl, unlike a young blond WASP, wasn't worshipped early (thin and gawky at 13?) , is well aware there are players that are actively avoiding serious emotional involvement, and wants people who are going to be real around her.

However, congrats on having the balls to game a smoking chick like this.

[Dakota]

I'm still curious about how to differentiate girls who are down to smash and girls who are just networking, especially among actresses and industry chicks etc. in Hollywood. I know a lot of girls who are very flirtatious and are always down to have coffee or lunch or happy hour and while it seems like a date to me it's really just them networking.

A lot of times it's a dead giveaway if I offer to meet them at night and they change it to the day or if they mostly talk about their gigs and auditions etc. But other times it's hard to tell. I'd love to know any advice on how to differentiate the difference and how to transition a "networking date" into a real date?

[Oblivion77]

(08-29-2011 03:11 PM)Dakota Wrote:  

I'm still curious about how to differentiate girls who are down to smash and girls who are just networking, especially among actresses and industry chicks etc. in Hollywood. I know a lot of girls who are very flirtatious and are always down to have coffee or lunch or happy hour and while it seems like a date to me it's really just them networking.

A lot of times it's a dead giveaway if I offer to meet them at night and they change it to the day or if they mostly talk about their gigs and auditions etc. But other times it's hard to tell. I'd love to know any advice on how to differentiate the difference and how to transition a "networking date" into a real date?

I see your point and I agree, to a certain extent. Remember you need a fine balance of both elements to make it work (your higher status topped by your game). What worked for me is to make very clear what my interests are in a non-needy way, conveying the message "I am getting laid, whether it is with you or with another girl is irrelevant". Try to set up drinks dates at lounges/bars, after 8.30pm, so there is no risk the girl meets you for a "quick drink" and then bolts somewhere else. The girls you described will try this move if they are interested in networking only. Once instead you grab the whole evening slot, it is a date. If you go to pick her up, it further reasserts the nature of your gathering and she KNOWS it. If she just wants to network she will cancel and wont come out. For instance, this week I got three dates set for Wed, Thur and Friday, with chicks that are coming to my place and are willing to put in some effort. Not as hot as hers, but more reliable and all about 7's. And yes, all are actresses, that understood we arent going to network...only

UPDATE: the model just texted me back (48 hours late), apologizing for her delay and asking me to let her know when I am around again. I am going to call her later today or tomorrow and ask her out for drinks - even though she doesnt drink. That will help to cut the BS. Dakota, this is the type of chick that is trying to network only, very likely. I will figure it out calling her, seeing how quickly she calls back, if at all, and to say what. I suspect I have nearly zero chances to get the bang. But game is also about working slippery slopes. If she isnt avail to come out this week (I personally expect her to be "busy") I will either cut her loose completely and erase the number or try to transform her into a friend for social circle infiltration - hopefully she has attractive friends.

[Samseau]

Quote:

the model just texted me back (48 hours late), apologizing for her delay and asking me to let her know when I am around again. I am going to call her later today or tomorrow and ask her out for drinks

I would wait at least a day before calling. Think about this girl more. Is she worth the effort?

[Oblivion77]

(08-29-2011 09:54 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:

the model just texted me back (48 hours late), apologizing for her delay and asking me to let her know when I am around again. I am going to call her later today or tomorrow and ask her out for drinks

I would wait at least a day before calling. Think about this girl more. Is she worth the effort?

Thanks for being my conscience Samseau. The eternal dilemma:

Is she worth it? (NO)
vs
What do I have to lose?

Intelligence is often useless without the wisdom to apply those principles. So, to answer your question, I will let a few days go by and only then decide if I feel like giving her a ring. If there is no fun element but just a toxic lets-see-if-my-game-is-tight-enough-to-lure-out-this-reluctant-lizard, I would next her.