[Rob Banks]

I've read a lot of advice around here saying that you should lift as heavy as possible and do less reps if necessary. When I lift, I usually do the opposite. When I bench, for example, I don't raise the weight unless I can do 3 sets of 10 at the current weight. Once I can do 3 sets of 10 at a specific weight, I add 10 pounds the next time.

I notice the guys in there who do lots of weight and few reps usually look more like body builders than athletes. What I mean is that they have these big, bulky muscles that don't quite look natural. When you look at a professional boxer or athlete, their bodies have a more natural look, as opposed to body builders, who have bulkier muscles and look like they take steroids.

[Suits]

I can't help you with your low weight problem, but you can get more reps by dropping a valuable datasheet here on the forum.

[king bast]

(10-14-2016 09:42 PM)Rob Banks Wrote:  

I notice the guys in there who do lots of weight and few reps usually look more like body builders than athletes.

Congratulations, what you have 'noticed' is the polar opposite of what pretty much everyone who has spent any amount of time under weight has noticed.

[Repo]

If you take steroids you can look unnatural no matter the rep range.

[Rob Banks]

(10-14-2016 09:47 PM)Suits Wrote:  

I can't help you with your low weight problem, but you can get more reps by dropping a valuable datasheet here on the forum.

I don't have a "low weight" problem. I just wanted to know people's opinions on low weight/more reps vs. high weight/fewer reps. That's all.

[blck]

You need to educate yourself before talking, especially to people who already have their own program or you don't want to create discord between people trying to push their own vision.

Reps, weight, caloric deficit or surplus, steroids or not, You won't get the same results based on how you combine those.

Try to be more specific about what you want to achieve and then ask the right question.
Are you trying to get ripped or huge ?
Then the top RVFers will come to help you

[scotian]

I've recently switched to higher reps due to experiencing some joint pain while doing the Strong Lifts 5X5 program, I made some good strength gains but the pain I was getting especially in my hip socket made me give up the heavy weight for now. We'll see how it goes, its only been a month since I've been back in the gym doing high reps and so far the progress has been pretty good and I haven't felt any joint pain.

[realologist]

Not everyone on the forum does high weight/low rep and a lot of athletes do heavy lifting.

How you lift should be directly related to what your goals are.

So what are your goals that way a plan could be recommended to you?

[Irenicus]

Quote:

I don't have a "low weight" problem. I just wanted to know people's opinions on low weight/more reps vs. high weight/fewer reps. That's all.

It depends what you aim for.


If you want to get more muscle (bulk), then you do less reps, but with the highest weight you can handle safely. A good example of that program is Strongliifts 5x5 (which I use). Also, I have heard than Starting Strength is good, but I have never followed it's program. While you are at it, EAT lot's of meat, fish and milk. Avoid TRT if you are a newbie, or under 25.


Now, if you want to "sculpt" your body, then you do lots of reps (it depends on the program you will use), with lower weight (again, depends on the program). I am not too familiar with that (I am bulking), but I gave you the very basics.

[RichieP]

-You can gain muscle mass on low-reps or high reps - (see recent McMasters studies, up to 35 reps still produces hypertrophy!)
-Pros of high reps: easier recovery, more metabolic conditioning (fitness, cardio), less stress on joints
-Cons of high reps: much slower to build strength. Low reps are more effective.

After years of lifting heavy, I now really dig these higher rep ranges - 15+ per set - less stress on joints and CNS, easier to recover from, and more metabolic conditioning/ fitness carry over (just try 30 rep squats and see how hard you breathe). Although - I've gained the strength I want and am cool with leaving that on maintenance.

If I wanted pure strength gains as fast as possible, I would stick with something like starting strength / 5x5.

[Mjölnir]

(10-14-2016 09:42 PM)Rob Banks Wrote:  

I notice the guys in there who do lots of weight and few reps usually look more like body builders than athletes. What I mean is that they have these big, bulky muscles that don't quite look natural. When you look at a professional boxer or athlete, their bodies have a more natural look, as opposed to body builders, who have bulkier muscles and look like they take steroids.

Bull, Crap.

You are just expressing what you would like to believe that happens.

Look man, you can't change the form of a muscle.. A bulkier muscle it's just a bigger muscle, they don't change they shape because of the way you train them, sure you can have more of the lateral head of your triceps in proportion to your long head of the triceps, but that doesn't mean that it will change the shape. Everything that you said is misguided.

Doesn't matter if you do sets of 20, or sets of 3. If you're giving the muscle enough resistance with time under tensions the muscle will grow..

Now, biologically, what happens is that you have 3 main types of muscle fibers, I, IIA, IIB. That goes from slow twitch to fast twitch (IIA and IIB have differences on they're way of using energy stocks). And each person borns with a proportion of those on your body, and each of your muscle groups have a different proportion of them.. For example your calves... They are mostly slow twitch which makes higher reps ideal for muscle growth..

But you wan't to develop all of them. Still they work together no matter what amount of reps you do, you simply can put more emphasis on the type you wan't to target..

Look, i lift usually with heavier weights and reps in the range of 6-10 and I'm pretty fucking far from looking like I take steroids. Go get yourself some knowledge before you start a thread about your beliefs.

In the end you have to find what works better for you, try all types of reps and set ranges... That takes time tho.

Oh, and by the way. How many professional athletes do you know ? Most of them do power work at the gym with low reps. AND resistance workouts with high reps.

[Irenicus]

Richie, when you do high reps, what % of maximun weight you use?

[ScrapperTL]

Train for your specific goals

If you want:

Bench Press of 500 pounds, do Bench Press 5 days a week, Low Reps, Heavy Weight
Lean Shredded Physique: Cardio 5 days a week, 30 minutes minimum, High Reps, Low Weight
Deadly Striker: Train Boxing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, etc...
Dangerous Grappler: Training BJJ/Wrestling/Judo, etc...

People throw around the term "Functional" too much, Functional this, Functional that, etc...

The real truth you learn over time, whether you want to or not, is the Old World Red Pill Wisdom was TRUE.

Practice Makes Perfect and it takes 10,000 hours for Mastery.
You'll never have Super Human Strength without lots of Powerlifting, you'll never be a bad ass Fighter, without Fight Training and you'll never have amazing stamina without training some form of Cardio.

Be consistent and strive everyday towards your goals.

[RichieP]

(10-17-2016 09:03 AM)Irenicus Wrote:  

Richie, when you do high reps, what % of maximun weight you use?

No idea, but I'm lifting with intensity - last few reps need a couple more seconds pause, and I'm maybe 1-2 reps away frm failure when I stop.

I like 14-18 reps personally.

From that, I'm sure you could calculate the % of 1rm.

[MOVSM]

(10-15-2016 10:29 AM)scotian Wrote:  

I've recently switched to higher reps due to experiencing some joint pain while doing the Strong Lifts 5X5 program, I made some good strength gains but the pain I was getting especially in my hip socket made me give up the heavy weight for now. We'll see how it goes, its only been a month since I've been back in the gym doing high reps and so far the progress has been pretty good and I haven't felt any joint pain.

Scotian,
I had the same problem. It is not actually a hip socket, but really weird tendonitis.
The problem was gone after I attended Mark Rippetoe's starting strength seminar, where they fixed my form. Highly recommended.
I am now getting tendonitis around my elbow, so I need to go to a starting strength gym nearby so the coach can look at my form again.

You can find a coach around you here: http://startingstrength.org/

No, I'm not associated with them in any way.

[MOVSM]

Low weight, lots of reps is useless.

Quote:

Mark Rippetoe
04-03-2010, 09:20 PM
Higher reps function marginally better than lower reps for those trainees who have not yet tapped the ability for 5s to make you big. I've said this many times, but it apparently bears repeating: there is no better hypertrophy program than a linear progression of sets of 5 FOR A NOVICE. For a more advanced trainee, 10-15s are useful. Your question: I also know that that with sets of >5, fatigue plays a greater role, and form can deteriorate if the motor pathways are not well-developed, which is a good reason for novices to stick with 5s. But are there other reasons to avoid higher-rep ranges? is best answered by asking, what other reasons do you need?

Another idiocy is slo-mo training:

Quote:

Mark Rippetoe:
An entire system of training has been based on this apparently cool new observation, the hook being the fatigue produced by the slow movement and subsequent lactate accumulation. However, we are trying here to learn how to lift the most weight, not a little weight in as inefficient and uncomfortable a manner as possible

[RedPillUK]

I've done a lot of high rep, bodyweight training, convict conditioning style, when I've not had access to a gym.

A couple months ago, my legs were sore for a few days after doing 4 sets of 50 bodyweight 'close' squats.

I've now joined a gym and I'm back to doing low rep, high weight style training, I've already noticed more improvement, and it's easier to measure than bodyweight training.

Recently I saw this article (It's from Starting Strength, so take it with a pinch of salt). It explains why high rep exercises make you sore, but why that does not equal increased strength.

I'm now starting to think training that way is a complete waste of time, read this, I want to hear RVF's thoughts:

Delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) is currently understood as an inflammatory response to the eccentric component of an exercise. The actin-myosin crossbridges are damaged by the separation under tension as the sarcomere elongates during the eccentric phase of the muscle contraction, and the damage is repaired during the inflammatory cascade (for more information about the microanatomy involved start here)

When you are sore, you have done muscular work with an eccentric component to which you are not adapted. For example, cycling has no eccentric component, and although cyclists new to barbell training may be fairly strong, they get incredibly sore the first time they squat due to the eccentric component of the movement. And pushing the prowler doesn’t make you sore, no matter how hard you work, because pushing a sled lacks an eccentric component.

Since productive barbell exercises include an eccentric phase in their movement patterns, some soreness is always the result of productive training. But the soreness itself is not the aspect of the training that makes you stronger – the programmed increase in the load over time does that. The soreness is merely an unfortunate but necessary side-effect of having done barbell exercise.

Training specifically for soreness is foolish, since it indicates nothing more than unadapted-to eccentric work. The best illustration of this is 100 bodyweight (“air”) squats done as a single set. Anyone who is actually capable of doing this will get both excruciatingly sore and absolutely no stronger as a result. The soreness will be the product of the negative phase of 100 continuous reps, despite the fact that the load is only your bodyweight. And because the load is only your bodyweight – and because you’re already strong enough to do it 100 times – you cannot increase your force production capacity by doing 100 bodyweight squats. You can only get sore.

And being sore all the time is also foolish, because broadly-distributed DOMS is system-wide inflammation. Just like having the flu. Neither the flu nor 100 air squats makes you stronger, and in fact the catabolic effects of massive inflammation actually detrains strength. And doing this to yourself voluntarily – over and over again, week after week, month after month, for years at a time – takes its toll on your health.

People who do this habitually have either learned the wrong facts about exercise and its benefits, or they are trying to pay off a debt they think they owe, usually to themselves. This type of OCD is outside my experience, so I’ll leave it to the psychologists.


http://startingstrength.com/training/soreness

[ScrapperTL]

(10-18-2016 01:55 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

Low weight, lots of reps is useless.

Quote:

Mark Rippetoe
04-03-2010, 09:20 PM
Higher reps function marginally better than lower reps for those trainees who have not yet tapped the ability for 5s to make you big. I've said this many times, but it apparently bears repeating: there is no better hypertrophy program than a linear progression of sets of 5 FOR A NOVICE. For a more advanced trainee, 10-15s are useful. Your question: I also know that that with sets of >5, fatigue plays a greater role, and form can deteriorate if the motor pathways are not well-developed, which is a good reason for novices to stick with 5s. But are there other reasons to avoid higher-rep ranges? is best answered by asking, what other reasons do you need?

Another idiocy is slo-mo training:

Quote:

Mark Rippetoe:
An entire system of training has been based on this apparently cool new observation, the hook being the fatigue produced by the slow movement and subsequent lactate accumulation. However, we are trying here to learn how to lift the most weight, not a little weight in as inefficient and uncomfortable a manner as possible

This post does not take into consideration "Goals"
If pure Muscle Size is the Goal, then good contribution.

What if pure Muscle Size is not the Goal?
After all, this isn't a bodybuilding forum.

Remember, lots of excess Lean Mass means heavy swollen Muscles pumping with blood, requiring you to suck more air to do the same work as someone with less Muscle Mass.

If the competition requires even a moderate amount of endurance, the overly built guy is going to fatigue much faster.

[iamkaisersoze]

(10-14-2016 09:42 PM)Rob Banks Wrote:  

I've read a lot of advice around here saying that you should lift as heavy as possible and do less reps if necessary. When I lift, I usually do the opposite. When I bench, for example, I don't raise the weight unless I can do 3 sets of 10 at the current weight. Once I can do 3 sets of 10 at a specific weight, I add 10 pounds the next time.

I notice the guys in there who do lots of weight and few reps usually look more like body builders than athletes. What I mean is that they have these big, bulky muscles that don't quite look natural. When you look at a professional boxer or athlete, their bodies have a more natural look, as opposed to body builders, who have bulkier muscles and look like they take steroids.

The best advice I could give is just use the scientific method and find what works for you. Execute, assess, adjust, repeat. A mix of methods is probably best.

In my opinion, 3x10 might develop some hypertrophy, and some strength if you're a beginner. But 3x10 would indicate that you're not going as hard as you could on the first or second set. Something better might be 10, 8 and 6 but going all out on each set, depending on your goals. Over time however, I don't think you will get stronger once you become intermediate with 3x10 as your main lift scheme.

But regardless, try different things and see what works for you. If you're not getting noticeably stronger on a weekly basis -- especially if you're a beginner or even intermediate -- then you're doing something wrong. If you're not getting noticeably bigger on a monthly basis (or leaner, or both), then you're doing something wrong and you need to adjust.

As far as the muscle shape/size thing, pretty much every ripped corner back, wide receiver, safety, etc. in the NFL all lift with high weight and low reps for their main lifts in workouts. Those guys are as functional and aesthetic as you'll find on earth. Bodybuilders probably have more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy ("puffy"/"fluid" muscle growth) due to their higher-rep lifting schemes. Google "sarcoplasmic vs. myofibrillar hypertrophy" and you'll find some info in a pretty understandable format.

Personally, I alternate heavy and light days for my main lifts and then do assistance work anywhere from 5-15 reps. I bench 310-315 now at 6'1 205lbs.

[RexImperator]

There are also programs using Daily Undulating Periodization that mix it up between high rep/ low weight days and low rep/heavy weight days. So you get the effects of both. I made a thread about that.

I tried sets of 15 today and it was rough going, even with light weight. As Trump would say, I was "low energy" and I had no stamina.

[MOVSM]

(10-18-2016 02:53 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

This post does not take into consideration "Goals"
If pure Muscle Size is the Goal, then good contribution.

What if pure Muscle Size is not the Goal?
After all, this isn't a bodybuilding forum.

Remember, lots of excess Lean Mass means heavy swollen Muscles pumping with blood, requiring you to suck more air to do the same work as someone with less Muscle Mass.

If the competition requires even a moderate amount of endurance, the overly built guy is going to fatigue much faster.

I'll agree with the goals.

Endurance part is completely wrong however. It doesn't take as long a time to increase stamina as it does to build muscle.
Also, increasing the size of the engine doesn't make you slower. It increases fuel consumption.
And I'm pretty sure big people don't have trouble breathing.

[Rekk'd]

I believe the look for Bulky or Athletic depends on the percent of body fat. The best thing to do is start your workout with heavy 4-8 rep range compound excercise using reverse pyramid training, then you can do some low weight high rep isolation or pump training.

[Fortis]

When it comes to going heavy, what many guys need to understand is that you can't go super heavy all the time. 5x5 isn't something you're meant to do forever and ever. Unless you have the best of the best of the best genetics you will start to breakdown if you're deadlifting 2.5x body weight multiple times per week. You must use your brain. Me? I'm naturally thin. I have super thin wrists and ankles. I do a strength set and then a bunch of accessories for any given "strength" exercise. I might deadlift and do 65% of my max for 5 reps, 75% of my max for 5 reps and then 85% of my max for as many reps as possible. The next week I may do the same pattern but with 45%, 55% and 65%. Afterward I might do 5x10 pull ups/lat pull downs, 5x10 face pulls, 5x10 tricep push downs. I guess you could say i do a bastardized form of volume training mixed with a strength set. I train 4 times a week and I'm actually on a slight cut, but (anecdotally) I think my muscle mass is still increasing somehow. Will get calipers and measure up. I'm currently down from 3kg from 74kg to 71kg.

[Mjölnir]

(10-18-2016 01:55 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

Another idiocy is slo-mo training:

Quote:

Mark Rippetoe:
An entire system of training has been based on this apparently cool new observation, the hook being the fatigue produced by the slow movement and subsequent lactate accumulation. However, we are trying here to learn how to lift the most weight, not a little weight in as inefficient and uncomfortable a manner as possible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jHUdq060vE

Take a look at this. Great channel.

I think taking 30 seconds to do a rep is probably too much, but doing it fast completely ignores the time under tension factor...

If you're training for muscle growth you can't ignore it.

[Irenicus]

(10-18-2016 09:53 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

When it comes to going heavy, what many guys need to understand is that you can't go super heavy all the time. 5x5 isn't something you're meant to do forever and ever. Unless you have the best of the best of the best genetics you will start to breakdown if you're deadlifting 2.5x body weight multiple times per week. You must use your brain. Me? I'm naturally thin. I have super thin wrists and ankles. I do a strength set and then a bunch of accessories for any given "strength" exercise. I might deadlift and do 65% of my max for 5 reps, 75% of my max for 5 reps and then 85% of my max for as many reps as possible. The next week I may do the same pattern but with 45%, 55% and 65%. Afterward I might do 5x10 pull ups/lat pull downs, 5x10 face pulls, 5x10 tricep push downs. I guess you could say i do a bastardized form of volume training mixed with a strength set. I train 4 times a week and I'm actually on a slight cut, but (anecdotally) I think my muscle mass is still increasing somehow. Will get calipers and measure up. I'm currently down from 3kg from 74kg to 71kg.

I totally agree with that post.


5x5 (and SS) are meant to give you a foundation, on which you can improve later on.

Even Mehdi says that, after a certain time, you need to switch from 5x5 to something else, or 3x5, because your body can't handle that regiment for long once you start lifting high volumes.