[MOVSM]

(10-19-2016 07:59 AM)Mjölnir Wrote:  

(10-18-2016 01:55 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

Another idiocy is slo-mo training:

Quote:

Mark Rippetoe:
An entire system of training has been based on this apparently cool new observation, the hook being the fatigue produced by the slow movement and subsequent lactate accumulation. However, we are trying here to learn how to lift the most weight, not a little weight in as inefficient and uncomfortable a manner as possible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jHUdq060vE

Take a look at this. Great channel.

I think taking 30 seconds to do a rep is probably too much, but doing it fast completely ignores the time under tension factor...

If you're training for muscle growth you can't ignore it.

Olympic lifts are already slow. A deadlift or squat or press set of five may take you 1-2 minutes to complete. There is no need to slow it down any farther.

[MOVSM]

(10-18-2016 09:53 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

When it comes to going heavy, what many guys need to understand is that you can't go super heavy all the time. 5x5 isn't something you're meant to do forever and ever. Unless you have the best of the best of the best genetics you will start to breakdown if you're deadlifting 2.5x body weight multiple times per week. You must use your brain. Me? I'm naturally thin. I have super thin wrists and ankles. I do a strength set and then a bunch of accessories for any given "strength" exercise. I might deadlift and do 65% of my max for 5 reps, 75% of my max for 5 reps and then 85% of my max for as many reps as possible. The next week I may do the same pattern but with 45%, 55% and 65%. Afterward I might do 5x10 pull ups/lat pull downs, 5x10 face pulls, 5x10 tricep push downs. I guess you could say i do a bastardized form of volume training mixed with a strength set. I train 4 times a week and I'm actually on a slight cut, but (anecdotally) I think my muscle mass is still increasing somehow. Will get calipers and measure up. I'm currently down from 3kg from 74kg to 71kg.

Well, yes--5x5 you do once every other week. Then you recover from it for two weeks. To not let yourself recover from it is counterproductive.

5x5 is also not for beginners. This program is for intermediate athletes. You should employ it only once your deadlift hits 400-500lbs.

[Giovonny]

This is me at 40 years old:

[attachment=33995]

I've been working out my whole life.

I have done light weights and heavy weights, low reps and high reps...

--

Here is my opinion on "low weight/high reps"

It's a great WARMUP!

It lubricates the tendons, ligaments, and joints!

It bring fresh blood to the muscles and activates more muscle fibers!

It prepares the body for heavier weight.

--

I start many workouts like this:







Then, as my body gets loose and warm, I start to ADD WEIGHT:



I go as heavy as I can, SAFELY!

Of course, experienced lifters know, the only way to build muscle is to destroy muscle, and the only way to destroy muscle is with HEAVIER WEIGHTS!

(of course, it is effective to mix in some lower weight/high rep exercises to stretch the muscle and pump it with blood; Usually towards the end of the workout after you have destroyed the muscle fibers with heavy weight)

So, if you want to build muscle, you must lift heavy weight.

--

But, not everyone is aggressively trying to build muscle..

-Beginners
-Older people
-Injured athletes
-Coming back from injury athletes
-Girls

These people probably should do some low weight/high rep movements in order to get a feel for the exercise and perfect the technique.

Guys who want to get big and strong, go HEAVY!

--

P.S. -- Safety first! Lighting heavy is no joke and injuries are common.Get a good warmup, lubricate the shoulders and back, do some light calisthenics/stretching. Don't be in a rush. Obey your body. If something hurts, you probably shouldn't do it. Get a great warmup!

[kiwi12]

Im confused. I dont understand what you mean with high reps? Is 6-8 high rep? or 12-15? or 20+?

[ScrapperTL]

Lots of speculation going on in this thread.
I have been doing Deadlifts and Hex Bar Deadlifts for probably 16+ years.
Yet nothing has grown my Lat muscles as much as High Rep Wide-Grip Pull ups.
Currently I can bang out 3 sets of 12 (hanging from bottom to chin above bar) Wide-Grip Pull ups in under 6 minutes.
This blows up my lats like a MF'er, heavy DL's and HB DL's for low reps don't come close to the feeling of high rep Wide-Grip Pull ups for my lats.

[Giovonny]

(10-19-2016 01:17 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

nothing has grown my Lat muscles as much as High Rep Wide-Grip Pull ups.

I would suggest that this is not so much an issue of high reps vs low reps but rather "hitting the muscle from a better angle"

In terms of building visible Lats, wide grip pull ups are superior to dead lifts.. Wide grip pulll ups are the best exercise for building Lats.

It isn't so much about the reps, it's more about the pull up simply targeting the Lat with more directness, intensity, and concentrated force..

The pull up is superior because of angle and muscle recruitment, not because of anything to do with reps..

--

And, if you are using your full body weight for pull ups, that is NOT LOW WEIGHT! Using your entire body weight for a pull up is actually a higher weight!

Just saying.. I don't know..??

I think your Lats are growing because pull ups target them better...12 full body weight pull ups isn't exactly "high rep/low weight". That's a great balance of weight and reps... Much better than "low weight/high reps"

It's not like your doing 30 reps of "assisted pull ups"... Like this:



This is low weight.

Body weight is not "low weight".

12 body weight pull ups is no joke!

[MOVSM]

(10-19-2016 12:59 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Here is my opinion on "low weight/high reps"

It's a great WARMUP!

It lubricates the tendons, ligaments, and joints!

It bring fresh blood to the muscles and activates more muscle fibers!

It prepares the body for heavier weight.

That is about the extent of its usefulness.

Giovonny, what is your program? Do you do the empty bar set before each lift, or only at the beginning of the workout?


I do the standard starting strength program. Here is my workout.

Heavy day:
Squat........Press.........Deadlift
45x5x2.......45x5x2......135x5x2
135x4........65x4..........225x4
205x2........85x2..........275x2
225x1........95x1..........315x1
260x5x3.....110x5x3......335x5x3

Light Day:
Squat........Bench......Chin-ups/Pullups
45x5x2.......45x5x2....~12,8,5
135x4........115x4
205x2........135x2
225x1........155x1
260x5x3.....170x5x3

[ScrapperTL]

(10-19-2016 01:30 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

(10-19-2016 01:17 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

nothing has grown my Lat muscles as much as High Rep Wide-Grip Pull ups.

I would suggest that this is not so much an issue of high reps vs low reps but rather "hitting the muscle from a better angle"

In terms of building visible Lats, wide grip pull ups are superior to dead lifts.. Wide grip pulll ups are the best exercise for building Lats.

It isn't so much about the reps, it's more about the pull up simply targeting the Lat with more directness, intensity, and concentrated force..

The pull up is superior because of angle and muscle recruitment, not because of anything to do with reps..

--

And, if you are using your full body weight for pull ups, that is NOT LOW WEIGHT! Using your entire body weight for a pull up is actually a higher weight!

Just saying.. I don't know..??

I think your Lats are growing because pull ups target them better...12 full body weight pull ups isn't exactly "high rep/low weight". That's a great balance of weight and reps... Much better than "low weight/high reps"

It's not like your doing 30 reps of "assisted pull ups"... Like this:



This is low weight.

Body weight is not "low weight".

12 body weight pull ups is no joke!

OK, I will admit you did school me on this.
Also, that's 3x12 (wide grip) in under 6 minutes!
Don't undermine my accomplishments muthasucka!

Now you've got my mind wandering, I will have to try slapping a plate in a backpack and doing 5x5 Wide Grip Pull ups - to see if this slams the lats even harder than bodyweight 3x12

I like the way you describe these things with pictures too, very stylish.

[blck]

Disregarding slow-mo & high reps won't make them useless.
Rippetoe was about strength not bodybuilding

High reps :

Slow-mo

[Giovonny]

(10-19-2016 03:05 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

That is about the extent of its usefulness.

I agree with you.

(99% of the time)

(10-19-2016 03:05 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

Giovonny, what is your program?

I go by "feel".

My physical fitness needs change throughout the year.. Thus, my program changes often..

Right now, I'm doing those Overhead Squats twice per week, and...

- At least one day of all Chest and Arms, and..

- at least one day of pull ups and Arms, and..

- A bit of random core, low back, hip, ab, exercises..

1 hour. 3 to 6 days a week, depending on my schedule, motivation, and needs. (If I know I'm going to be getting naked, I train like a demon and eat super clean!)

This is just what I feel like doing. This is what allows me to maintain a decent looking body in the minimum time/effort.

When I get bored or unmotivated, I will change..

(10-19-2016 03:05 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

Do you do the empty bar set before each lift, or only at the beginning of the workout?

Only at the beginning of my workout.

It's part of my warmup. Usually, the last part and the most important..

I often start with a broomstick:



then, work my way up to using the bar.

I get a good warmup, like this:



Then, I start ADDING WEIGHT!

(10-19-2016 03:05 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

my workout.

Your workout looks good. Should be effective.

I encourage you stretch your legs.. Including and especially your achilles tendons, ankles, low back, and hips..

FLEXIBILITY can make or break your body!

(10-19-2016 03:35 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

Also, that's 3x12 (wide grip) in under 6 minutes!

Very few men can do that.

12 full wide grip pull ups, ALL THE WAY DOWN AND ALL THE WAY UP!

It ain't easy. (especially for guys 30+, 40+)

(10-19-2016 03:35 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

I will have to try slapping a plate in a backpack and doing 5x5 Wide Grip Pull ups

Now, you're talking!



Your back will get even bigger!

(Remember to breathe properly and forcefully yet smooth)


--

(10-19-2016 04:11 PM)blck Wrote:  

Disregarding slow-mo & high reps won't make them useless.

I totally agree and want to thank you for reminding us that there is absolutely an effective time and place to use lower weight/high reps as a method to STRONGER and BIGGER!

I see big guys at my gym finish their heavy chest workout with low weight/high rep "Pec Dec" chest squeezes.. It's an effective way to pump the muscle full of blood after tearing down with heavy lifts!

--

And, on a related note..

As an athlete,

I want to describe one more scenario where it is often effective to do low weight/high rep type movements..

For football, basketball, baseball, hockey, lacrosse, etc..

As part of your WARMUP --

Throwers, jumpers, runners, shooters, hitters, tacklers, etc..

It engages the muscles, tendons, joints, and ligaments to work together in one smooth motion.. It lubricates all of them and gets them into a pattern.

I learned this from an NBA trainer! (on television)

Some NBA players, before they start their on court skill work; will often "warm up" with a short, like 10 minute, light weigh lifting routine.. This is often a very effective way to warm up ther muscles and connective tissue..

(Start watching at 0:40 seconds)

(This is a light weight PRE GAME Lifting Routine) (To "turn the muscles on")

[Truth Teller]

(10-19-2016 12:15 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

Olympic lifts are already slow. A deadlift or squat or press set of five may take you 1-2 minutes to complete. There is no need to slow it down any farther.

I don't know in what world weightlifting is a slow sport.

[RichieP]

He's talking about squats and deads, and clearly meant powerlifting.

[MOVSM]

(10-19-2016 08:36 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(10-19-2016 12:15 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

Olympic lifts are already slow. A deadlift or squat or press set of five may take you 1-2 minutes to complete. There is no need to slow it down any farther.

I don't know in what world weightlifting is a slow sport.

Technical lifts cannot be done slowly. But even in the clip you provided, once he's done with the snatch part, the second part of the lift--the squat--is done slowly.

How quick are these?

[Mjölnir]

(10-19-2016 12:15 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

(10-19-2016 07:59 AM)Mjölnir Wrote:  

(10-18-2016 01:55 PM)MOVSM Wrote:  

Another idiocy is slo-mo training:

Quote:

Mark Rippetoe:
An entire system of training has been based on this apparently cool new observation, the hook being the fatigue produced by the slow movement and subsequent lactate accumulation. However, we are trying here to learn how to lift the most weight, not a little weight in as inefficient and uncomfortable a manner as possible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jHUdq060vE

Take a look at this. Great channel.

I think taking 30 seconds to do a rep is probably too much, but doing it fast completely ignores the time under tension factor...

If you're training for muscle growth you can't ignore it.

Olympic lifts are already slow. A deadlift or squat or press set of five may take you 1-2 minutes to complete. There is no need to slow it down any farther.

I'm not sure I understand you, if you're a powerlifter/olympic lifter what are on about ?

If we're talking about bigger muscles, yes heavy is indeed necessary because a stronger muscle is a bigger muscle. But you can go heavy without using too much weight and fucking your other tissues.

Did you watch the video ? Obviously you won't be doing negative sets on a deadlift, unless you want to snap your back.

And i have to disgree that they are a slow movement, have you seen eddie hall deadlifting 500 kg ? This is basic physics: F=m*a

The faster you can pull(bigger a) the more force you'll produce because your mass isn't changing. Take your 1rep max deadlift and try to pull it really slow see how it goes.

I'm not disagreeing with you, i'm trying to show another perspective. Heavy not always has to mean lots of weights, there are techniques that make lighter weights feel like they're heavy. You're not breaking muscle fibers by doing sets of 15-20.

But use this weight and take 3 seconds on the concentric, 4 seconds on the eccentric and hold your contraction at the top of the movement for 2 seconds and see how many reps you can do.

(edit: typos)

[RedPillUK]

(10-19-2016 03:35 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

OK, I will admit you did school me on this.
Also, that's 3x12 (wide grip) in under 6 minutes!
Don't undermine my accomplishments muthasucka!

Now you've got my mind wandering, I will have to try slapping a plate in a backpack and doing 5x5 Wide Grip Pull ups - to see if this slams the lats even harder than bodyweight 3x12

I like the way you describe these things with pictures too, very stylish.

I read an article recently explaining why narrow grip pullups actually activate your lats and more muscles more than wide grip pullups.

I gave it a try afterwards, focusing on my lats and back muscles and I can feel it working those muscles more than the wide grip pullup.

I don't remember where I read that article, many of the details of it and it goes against conventional wisdom, so I'm not suprised if you or other people are skeptical, but give it a try and you'll probably notice the same thing.

[realologist]

The best style of pull ups for lats is the v grip.



Try it for yourself.

[CaptainChardonnay]

^I really like those. Feels great targeting the inner part of the upper back

[MOVSM]

(10-20-2016 12:32 PM)Mjölnir Wrote:  

I'm not sure I understand you, if you're a powerlifter/olympic lifter what are on about ?

For building muscle what is needed is slow, heavy lifts.

Circuit training is meant for "fine-tuning" an already large muscle for body building competitions. It is not for beginner, and even intermediate athletes.

I fail to see a benefit of any type of esoteric training such as what you mentioned that is already not covered by well-known methods above.
It looks more like a marketing pitch for his product--he is the only one genius who came up with it and you should buy his product and train only with him.

Quote:

If we're talking about bigger muscles, yes heavy is indeed necessary because a stronger muscle is a bigger muscle. But you can go heavy without using too much weight and fucking your other tissues.

That contradicts itself.

Quote:

Did you watch the video ? Obviously you won't be doing negative sets on a deadlift, unless you want to snap your back.

And i have to disgree that they are a slow movement, have you seen eddie hall deadlifting 500 kg ? This is basic physics: F=m*a

The faster you can pull(bigger a) the more force you'll produce because your mass isn't changing. Take your 1rep max deadlift and try to pull it really slow see how it goes.

You are talking about power, and that is only applicable to snatch, clean, and jerk:
"The squat, press, deadlift, and bench press all incorporate the isometric and dynamic components of the quick lifts—the snatch and the clean and jerk—because they are multijoint movements that involve lots of muscles doing lots of things during the movement. The slow lifts can all be done fast. In contrast, the quick (i.e. Olympic) lifts cannot be done slow, and are always used to train power. They cannot be used as strength exercises, since their execution requires a high bar velocity: a slow snatch will not rack; a slow clean is a deadlift."
~Mark Rippetoe

In regard to speed--if you look at the videos I posted above, you will see that the deadlift, for example, took Eddie Hall 8-9 seconds to complete one rep. That's slow.

Quote:

I'm not disagreeing with you, i'm trying to show another perspective. Heavy not always has to mean lots of weights, there are techniques that make lighter weights feel like they're heavy. You're not breaking muscle fibers by doing sets of 15-20.

But use this weight and take 3 seconds on the concentric, 4 seconds on the eccentric and hold your contraction at the top of the movement for 2 seconds and see how many reps you can do.

(edit: typos)

Heavy always means more weight.
Making light weight seem heavy will only get you sore and tired, and will not increase your strength. You can only do that by lifting progressively heavier weight. There are no shortcuts and "weird tricks".

More strength is always desirable. Strong people are more useful, and harder to kill. Good looks are merely side effects of it.

[Ringo]

(10-20-2016 02:33 PM)RedPillUK Wrote:  

(10-19-2016 03:35 PM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

OK, I will admit you did school me on this.
Also, that's 3x12 (wide grip) in under 6 minutes!
Don't undermine my accomplishments muthasucka!

Now you've got my mind wandering, I will have to try slapping a plate in a backpack and doing 5x5 Wide Grip Pull ups - to see if this slams the lats even harder than bodyweight 3x12

I like the way you describe these things with pictures too, very stylish.

I read an article recently explaining why narrow grip pullups actually activate your lats and more muscles more than wide grip pullups.

I gave it a try afterwards, focusing on my lats and back muscles and I can feel it working those muscles more than the wide grip pullup.

I don't remember where I read that article, many of the details of it and it goes against conventional wisdom, so I'm not suprised if you or other people are skeptical, but give it a try and you'll probably notice the same thing.

I do a lot of BW and weighted pullups - close grip and V grip (like posted by Realogist) target it best too.

Maybe you are referring to Dorian Yates' article?

http://musculardevelopment.com/training/...AobsOgrKUk

Quote:

The Myth of Wide-grip Superiority

One myth that has held back the development of lats the world over is the persistent idea that using a wide grip on chins and pulldowns is the best way to build wider lats. This myth probably has its origins in the fact that using a wide grip on any vertical pulling motion will selectively recruit the smaller upper back muscles like the teres major and minor, the upper portion of the traps, and the rhomboids.

When a bodybuilder feels these smaller muscle groups at the top of the back working, he often assumes he is making his lats wider. But the lats actually originate under the armpits and insert near the waist. Using a wide grip does not provide anywhere near a full range of motion for them. A narrower grip, in contrast, allows both a better stretch and a more complete contraction. If you don’t believe me, pantomime two types of pulldowns right now as you read this, doing your best to contract the lats as hard as possible: a wide-grip pulldown and a narrow, underhand grip. I guarantee you that you will feel a more powerful contraction of the lats with the narrow underhand grip.

In my early career, I experimented with various types of grips, and I found that using a closer grip with the hands either parallel (facing each other) or fully supinated (underhand) actually provided the best contraction and most complete range of motion for the lats. Throughout my Mr. Olympia reign, I never did a single set of wide-grip chins or lat pulldowns. My two choices for vertical pulling were always a narrow underhand grip for lat pulldowns, which I would go up to 400 pounds on, and the Hammer Strength Iso-lateral pulldown machine.

A final reason to consider using a narrow grip beyond the issue of range of motion is the fact that it puts the biceps in a stronger position. Since the biceps are far smaller and weaker than the lats, putting them in a position where they are guaranteed to fail before the lats are properly stimulated, as in any wide-grip vertical pull, will cause you to shortchange your potential growth.

[ScrapperTL]

(10-21-2016 08:03 AM)MOVSM Wrote:  

[quote='Mjölnir' pid='1423409' dateline='1476984742']
More strength is always desirable. Strong people are more useful, and harder to kill. Good looks are merely side effects of it.

Again, train for your own personal goals and always with a sport specific mindset.
A total string bean with thousands of hours of training, can KO an untrained super strong ultra muscular guy with ease.
If you want to be "hard to kill" you should be Sparring in some type of Striking and Grappling art at least 3 days a week.
Never assume anything about cross-functionality, this often results in humiliation.
Example: You are absolute beast on Guitar, so you step on stage and try to play Piano? Not going to happen without specific training.

[Giovonny]

(10-20-2016 04:27 PM)realologist Wrote:  

I like these!

I like all pull ups!

I think its good to do a variety of pull up styles..

(10-21-2016 08:47 AM)Ringo Wrote:  

The Myth of Wide-grip Superiority

Good article (thanks for posting)

I don't disagree with any of it..

I would just add that..

Narrow, wide, V-grip, closed grip, inverted grip, chin up, etc.

They all work the muscles in slightly different ways..

Some people feel it more with a narrow grip..

Others feel it more with a wide grip..

Do what WORKS BEST FOR YOU

Also, some grips work muscle density.. Other grips accentuate muscle length.. Other grips work more muscle width...

When I recommended wide grip pulls, I was recommending solely on LOOKS! I was talking purely for aesthetics.. For sheer strength, I might go with a more narrow grip..

It just depends on the person..

EACH MAN HAS DIFFERENT "LIMB LENGTH" and THE LENGTH OF EACH MANS LIMBS (arms) -- RELATIVE TO HIS HEIGHT AND STRENGTH -- WILL CAUSE EACH GRIP TO HIT A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT AREA OF HIS BACK..

SO, ONE MAN MIGHT GET A BETTER LAT "PUMP" FROM A NARROW GRIP WHILE ANOTHER, TALLER MAN MIGHT GET A BETTER LAT "PUMP" FROM A WIDER GRIP.. Try them all, do what works best for YOU!

"Limb length" matters alot in these little areas and each man's body is designed with different proportions.

(10-21-2016 09:50 AM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

If you want to be "hard to kill"

I like the way you think about training!

[Stun]

Low weights and high reps might be good for tone and endurance, but you will never build size.

I used to rep 135lbs 10x for 10 sets, for a total weight lifted of 13,500lbs.

I now rep 245lbs 5x for 5 sets, total of 6,125lbs.

I am twice the size now I was then, and I still eat the same amount.

[MOVSM]

(10-21-2016 09:50 AM)ScrapperTL Wrote:  

Never assume anything about cross-functionality, this often results in humiliation.
Example: You are absolute beast on Guitar, so you step on stage and try to play Piano? Not going to happen without specific training.

It isn't my assumption. Yes, you will still have to train for your sport.
My whole shpiel was that higher strength makes you more effective.
If your sport is a martial art, becoming stronger will make your punches land harder. As a football player, a stronger man will overpower his opponent easier.
In combat, you will better survive an IED blast.
Come to think of it, becoming stronger will aid your performance whatever your chosen physical activity is. Well, maybe not marathon running...
None of this is cross functionality.

[MOVSM]

(10-21-2016 03:53 PM)Stun Wrote:  

Low weights and high reps might be good for tone and endurance, but you will never build size.

I used to rep 135lbs 10x for 10 sets, for a total weight lifted of 13,500lbs.

I now rep 245lbs 5x for 5 sets, total of 6,125lbs.

I am twice the size now I was then, and I still eat the same amount.

I am seething jealous. My workout is above, some of my lifts are heavier than yours.
I eat more, workout religiously, and I barely added an inch to my shoulders.
I'm stronger though...

[Guitarman]

"Low weight, lots of reps
I've read a lot of advice around here saying that you should lift as heavy as possible and do less reps if necessary."

Yes, that is what you should do.

"When I lift, I usually do the opposite. "

That's just GAY, don't lift like that, "light and high reps" is for women and homos, go heavy and less reps. It boosts testosterone.