[Philosopher]

Watched this about a month ago and just wondering what your thoughts on this guy's argument would be.

If you do not have the time to watch it, or a brief synopsis: the guy claims that he was a PUA for a while but he decided that it is a dead end that does not lead anywhere. It kind of locks you into something he calls "orange phase" where your whole life revolves around being super egotistical and thinking only about your own needs without building any meaningful relationships with girls or with other PUAs. I disagree but cannot quite identify what is wrong with his argument.

He does sound a bit Beta in places and I think that he forgets that Gaming is essential if you want to build an LTR. My last LTR required me to game the girl all the time, whenever I relaxed, she would slowly lose interest until I turned on Game. In the end his advice is not the worst. Keep gaming, but do not be averse to relationships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q56Qkejx_FM

Counterarguments? Comments? Observations?

[AWright]

I know a guy who said he winged with this guy in Vegas and said he sucked. Imo his advice is for the 5% who take it too far, not the 95% that learning game is a positive for.

[Easy_C]

1) There's some pretty good criticisms of PUA out there, but this isn't it. The more legitimate criticisms are that it doesn't actually help you get good with women. In most cases it actually makes you suck worse because the extremely rigid processes they teach you aren't how real life actually works (e.g. you can't really "build attraction" in numbered stages). If anything "PUA" only accentuates the cause of the problem. Most people on the internet looking for help with girls have extremely boring/robotic personalities and/or they exude a lot of negativity that women pick up on. Using a scripted opener and conversation flows only makes being robotic worse and if you have a tendency towards negativity the absolute LAST thing you need to be doing is hanging out on a forum with a disproportionate number of people who are convinced that every woman that exists is a lying, cheating, manipulative slut(no, not all...just the ones certain types of guys attract).

2) Why are you posting this shit on here? I don't see any content that would actually help people improve their game (as the type of criticism I described above does) so you just seem to be attracted to the negativity.

[WestIndianArchie]

(10-12-2016 10:12 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

Watched this about a month ago and just wondering what your thoughts on this guy's argument would be.

If you do not have the time to watch it, or a brief synopsis: the guy claims that he was a PUA for a while but he decided that it is a dead end that does not lead anywhere. It kind of locks you into something he calls "orange phase" where your whole life revolves around being super egotistical and thinking only about your own needs without building any meaningful relationships with girls or with other PUAs. I disagree but cannot quite identify what is wrong with his argument.

He does sound a bit Beta in places and I think that he forgets that Gaming is essential if you want to build an LTR. My last LTR required me to game the girl all the time, whenever I relaxed, she would slowly lose interest until I turned on Game. In the end his advice is not the worst. Keep gaming, but do not be averse to relationships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q56Qkejx_FM

Counterarguments? Comments? Observations?

1 hour and 24 minutes?

Nope. Dude's appearance would actually be a good sell for PUA. Because the basic rule in that community is that you have to look a bit weird.

Just going off what you said about what he said.

1) "Gaming" - fix your vocabulary. Unless you mean the Nevada Gaming Commission. Or "Gaming the System".

2) RVF is not really PUA. It's more about self-improvement and basic game fundamentals. The Game section is one not nearly as popular as Travel/EE/Politics.

3) "where your whole life revolves around being super egotistical and thinking only about your own needs without building any meaningful relationships with girls or with other PUAs."

A. YOU SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT YOURSELF.

Da fuck?

A few sorts of guys find pick up
- the good boys. You'll find that pick up circles attract a lot of guys who look for answers to life online. Guys good at computers. Guys good at math. Guys that know how to follow the rules.

These guys are deeply embedded in the "Matrix" (oh noes, another term from PUA. But then again, so is taking the red pill - which has been bastardized by the "manosphere"..I digress)

Social programming teaches young men to throw away their lives for women.

Do you ever read about girls taking a bullet for some guy they barley know?

Fuck no.

Bitches are self-centered and the world caters to that. Caters to their entitlement. Pretty bitches get it the most...

Guys that don't get this game, that don't understand why the jock/rich/asshole guys get chicks - don't understand this very basic thing.

I FUCKING MATTER.
WHAT I WANT MATTERS.

Back in the day, the PUA phrase was something like "I am not ashamed of my sexual desires." Because guys had been made to feel bad about wanting to look at women. Not all guys, but most of the guys who come to pick up, are super-programmed into what society wants, not what they want.

Now the only people who can be open about wanting sex are women, gays, and transgenders. If your little locker room talk gets broadcast, your life is over.

I digress again.

The guys who run shit, game or no game, focus on themselves. Period.

I'm # 1.

Are there some guys who go too far? Yes. Everyone that's been in that PUA community knows that a guy who's been starving all his fucking life, gorges himself at the buffet in the first hour.

As long as nothing illegal happens, it's all good.

He needs to break some hearts, it's not like his hasn't been broken before.

Building relationships?

The relationship starts when the sex ends. A man will invest a whole lot of time, money, and effort and the woman will just take, take, and take.

She doesn't owe him sex, but he doesn't owe her undying affection, comfort, and raspberry lemonades @ Cheesecake factory.

Indeed, a lot of girls don't even take you seriously until you manage to bang them. And sometimes, not even then.

What was bothering you about ol dude, aside from his asexual/feminine energy was that he was trying to bring you back into social programming.

I get this from folks all the time.

"When are you gonna settle down?"

They're really asking, "Why don't you settle for less, like I have"

If living the life I want is selfish, so be it.

WIA

[Iso]

(10-12-2016 10:40 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

"When are you gonna settle down?"

They're really asking, "Why don't you settle for less, like I have"

If living the life I want is selfish, so be it.

WIA

One upside to game: You develop killer comebacks when people ask you nosy personal questions.

Someone needs to archive these gems by WIA.

[torridon747]

He has a "holier than thou" attitude just because he had his own individual experience. He uses a vague psychological theory to characterize himself as above PUA. It's full of humblebragging and showing off and it's really not that useful to anyone. Just because he's "been there" he feels as if he has the expertise to summize a whole community and idealogy as neurotic, shallow, and emotionally insecure. It's classic behaviour for someone who wants to project being wise without knowing what wisdom is. This hour-ish (turned it off 45 minutes in) video is more of a commentary on his own life than an accurate representation of reality.

Some people are fine sleeping with a new girl every week and enjoy PUA as a hobby. Some people are using game to find their ideal life partner. You choose your own path in life and part of maturing is understanding that.

[Philosopher]

(10-12-2016 10:38 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

1) There's some pretty good criticisms of PUA out there, but this isn't it. The more legitimate criticisms are that it doesn't actually help you get good with women. In most cases it actually makes you suck worse because the extremely rigid processes they teach you aren't how real life actually works (e.g. you can't really "build attraction" in numbered stages). If anything "PUA" only accentuates the cause of the problem. Most people on the internet looking for help with girls have extremely boring/robotic personalities and/or they exude a lot of negativity that women pick up on. Using a scripted opener and conversation flows only makes being robotic worse and if you have a tendency towards negativity the absolute LAST thing you need to be doing is hanging out on a forum with a disproportionate number of people who are convinced that every woman that exists is a lying, cheating, manipulative slut(no, not all...just the ones certain types of guys attract).

2) Why are you posting this shit on here? I don't see any content that would actually help people improve their game (as the type of criticism I described above does) so you just seem to be attracted to the negativity.

1) Agree, it does make me rely on the scripts too much. But regarding the view that every girl is hypergamous (slut, etc.) this is simply being realistic.

2) Posted it in order to develop our logical and argumentative skills. Sometimes hearing someone you disagree is a good way to to this. Finding reasons for why being selfish is OK would be useful in case we have a judgmental friend/relative/gf who bugs us about the RVF lifestyle.

In regards to negativity, I always tend to think that everything bad that happens is good for me as it is a learning experience. Got it from Roosh in his article where he has Old Roos talk to young Roosh)

[Philosopher]

(10-12-2016 10:40 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

[quote='Philosopher' pid='1416937' dateline='1476328368']

What was bothering you about ol dude, aside from his asexual/feminine energy was that he was trying to bring you back into social programming.

I get this from folks all the time.

"When are you gonna settle down?"

They're really asking, "Why don't you settle for less, like I have"

If living the life I want is selfish, so be it.

WIA

Wow, that was it. He is saying the exact same things my parents, relatives or married friends tell me. When will we have grandkinds? When will you find that special girl? Why are you alone?

WIA thanks for the wisdom

P.S.: What should I call it if not "Gaming." To practice Game? To Game? To Approach?

[Easy_C]

(10-12-2016 11:31 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

(10-12-2016 10:38 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

1) There's some pretty good criticisms of PUA out there, but this isn't it. The more legitimate criticisms are that it doesn't actually help you get good with women. In most cases it actually makes you suck worse because the extremely rigid processes they teach you aren't how real life actually works (e.g. you can't really "build attraction" in numbered stages). If anything "PUA" only accentuates the cause of the problem. Most people on the internet looking for help with girls have extremely boring/robotic personalities and/or they exude a lot of negativity that women pick up on. Using a scripted opener and conversation flows only makes being robotic worse and if you have a tendency towards negativity the absolute LAST thing you need to be doing is hanging out on a forum with a disproportionate number of people who are convinced that every woman that exists is a lying, cheating, manipulative slut(no, not all...just the ones certain types of guys attract).

2) Why are you posting this shit on here? I don't see any content that would actually help people improve their game (as the type of criticism I described above does) so you just seem to be attracted to the negativity.

1) Agree, it does make me rely on the scripts too much. But regarding the view that every girl is hypergamous (slut, etc.) this is simply being realistic.

2) Posted it in order to develop our logical and argumentative skills. Sometimes hearing someone you disagree is a good way to to this. Finding reasons for why being selfish is OK would be useful in case we have a judgmental friend/relative/gf who bugs us about the RVF lifestyle.

In regards to negativity, I always tend to think that everything bad that happens is good for me as it is a learning experience. Got it from Roosh in his article where he has Old Roos talk to young Roosh)

No, it is not "simply being realistic" to assume that they're all sluts. Better advice is to just not assume anything about them and be as objective as you can when judging them.

Basic common sense applies. If you met her on Tinder, they probably are like that or they wouldn't be there in the first place. Basic principle of life: understand the market you're working in and what you offer. If you aren't the kind of guy to meet "nice girls"(who do NOT want a "nice guy"....would make a terrible family leader) then don't be surprised if you don't really run into many like that.

I should know. I will agree that the median level is pretty terrible but I spent some time honing my ability to find and attract that type with the result that I was able to marry a staunchly anti-abortion, anti-hypergamy, and anti-contraceptive Catholic girl who (while not really being socially activist) expresses beliefs like thinking that really fat people are gross, homosexuality is disordered, and believes in biblical gender relations. It can be done...it's just very hard to find that type and you need an immense amount of discipline to not accept a red flag or two even while you're abstinent.



*****

To your second point I think you're confusing selfishness with self interest. In my case I'm extremely financially motivated but I don't think that makes me a bad person: I'll still be there to pick you up when you're drunk at 2AM in a bad part of town and I still am willing to part with time and/or money for a good cause. Aggressively going after what you want doesn't make you selfish...and I don't have qualms about it.

Quote:

I get this from folks all the time.

"When are you gonna settle down?"

They're really asking, "Why don't you settle for less, like I have"

If living the life I want is selfish, so be it.

WIA

There is no "right time". The right time to marry is when you meet a woman who you have every reason to believe will make an excellent wife and mother and who has traits you want in your kids. That's it. Keep the focus that simple and it helps keep your head clear. My observations on terrible relationships (and you see a LOT as an Army officer) has been that most disasters could be avoided if people had actually been in that mindset and had a healthy skepticism about the women in question while waiting for her to prove that she has the selflessness needed to raise kids.

[GetRichOrdie]

I like Aaron Sleazy's criticisms of the PUA community, and I think a lot of his points are spot on. Based on the sicko degenerate marxist media attacking PUA on so many fronts, I think its a clear sign that its a generally healthy and powerful lifestyle to embrace, based on my 'Follow what the elites say, because the opposite is the truth' rule

On the other hand i don't think its healthier to make your life focused about women, and its far better to have a passion/purpose in your life that you can become immersed in. There is something so healthy and masculine about building or creating some kind of value in the market around a career or passion that you feel can make a difference, and I think that element is missing out from a lot of 'PUA' materials, and generally there is just so much freakin information and so many complicated 'models' they are creating, that its just info overload and most introverted guys just need to push past their negative beliefs and be more persistent and action focused, as well as ironing out the negatives/issues in their life which chicks seem to pick up quickly.

[WestIndianArchie]

What I think is missing

- pua - for a long time, no emphasis on self improvement. Inner game is limited to things like being in the moment. Went too far left and dropped all the tech that makes it potent. Not enough red pill, realistic assessment of women

- Red Pill - way too much negativity. No technique for the most part, too much self improvement in respect to the pursuit of girls.

- pimp game - has red pill, has technique, no tools to deal with internal/emotional issues, aims to turn you into a sociopath, not a pretend one

I think a player needs
- mindset, philosophy, awareness
- good self image
- social knowledge
- female psychology and behavior
- good inner game
- technique
- self improvement

WIA

[pancakemouse]

(10-12-2016 10:22 PM)AWright Wrote:  

I know a guy who said he winged with this guy in Vegas and said he sucked. Imo his advice is for the 5% who take it too far, not the 95% that learning game is a positive for.

Not surprised he sucked, he has bad style, is skinny, and seems like a "nice guy".

[XPQ22]

(10-13-2016 08:37 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

What I think is missing

- pua - for a long time, no emphasis on self improvement. Inner game is limited to things like being in the moment. Went too far left and dropped all the tech that makes it potent. Not enough red pill, realistic assessment of women

- Red Pill - way too much negativity. No technique for the most part, too much self improvement in respect to the pursuit of girls.

- pimp game - has red pill, has technique, no tools to deal with internal/emotional issues, aims to turn you into a sociopath, not a pretend one

I think a player needs
- mindset, philosophy, awareness
- good self image
- social knowledge
- female psychology and behavior
- good inner game
- technique
- self improvement

WIA

One thing I know from being an active member of this forum for a year, and occasionally overhearing a girl I'm seeing or one of her friends talk about "those red pill/PUA" guys is that they honestly don't know what they're talking about.

They certainly believe they know all about what it's about. It's like that friend of yours on FB who believes he's an authority on everything, and he's trying to act as an authority on say mechanical engineering and the knowledge he's dropping is essentially what everyone learns in sophomore physics. You're wondering if he's going to bring up Lagrange's equations or Euler angles or something at another level and it never happens, as he's completely unaware of the things which he is unaware of.

Same goes for PUA, for whatever reason the public perception is still stuck circa 1998 where it's believed to just be all about mass approaching and dropping corny lines and using some technique resembling that "neurolinguistic programming" pseudoscience to manipulate women into sex. Maybe if you catch someone on a good day they might mention some concept like "abundance mentality" but that's about as far as it goes.

So most of the criticisms are straw men, as they're "refuting" notions that nobody actually believes. It can't really be otherwise, though, as if they tried to refute the real shit, like as WIA mentioned "As a man I don't need to be ashamed of my needs and desires" they'd have shaky ground to stand on. But from the outside perspective it doesn't matter, because while such a statement should be essentially undeniable on its face, acknowledging it is not good for society.

So instead of exploring what they are, simply insist that despite all arguments to the contrary, they are what they are not.

[Gorgiass]

Sleeping with girls isn't fulfilling? Somebody's been fucking a bunch of fives.

Ragging on game but he's using it right off the bat, attempting to coerce agreement with a bunch of simple truisms followed immediately by his opening statement of argument (crude version of the "yes ladder"). I skipped around the first few minutes and am not going to bother with the rest. Would this skinny dweeb with a misshapen head and rapport seeking squinty eyes have as many YT followers as he does if he never got into pickup? Hell no.

[Philosopher]

(10-13-2016 06:56 PM)Gorgiass Wrote:  

Sleeping with girls isn't fulfilling? Somebody's been fucking a bunch of fives.

Ragging on game but he's using it right off the bat, attempting to coerce agreement with a bunch of simple truisms followed immediately by his opening statement of argument (crude version of the "yes ladder"). I skipped around the first few minutes and am not going to bother with the rest. Would this skinny dweeb with a misshapen head and rapport seeking squinty eyes have as many YT followers as he does if he never got into pickup? Hell no.

Good point about the "Yes ladder," such a handy rhetorical trick.

[churros]

There's a much simpler answer to this video. The psychology it's premised on its moralistic bullshit. This guy is acting like he knows the secret of the universe.

I'm totally open to critiques of game. I wish I had an intellectual reason to take my foot off the pedal once in a while. Honestly can't find one.

[asdfk]

I've seen this shit earlier. You have to realise that most critiques of game, even those by people who do it themselves, sterns from a lack of success.

A man with -50 lays doesn't have any value to offer. His opinion is not based on experience.

Also, with his degrading remark in the first minute, he did the same thing he is accusing PUA's of: objectifying people, being mean to them and manipulate them (in this case to keep watching).

[Cobra]

This guy didn't seem legit.

Game is different from "pick up."

Game is knowing what to do in all situations including buying something or getting into a special venue. Basically it's learning how to sell yourself.

"Pick-up" and "PUA" techniques are the mechanism to get better game but it focuses on picking up women and not self improvement. That's the problem.

Guys sign up for PUA boot camp, learn a bunch of techniques and then go back to their depressed state of hating themselves which is why they paid the PUA $1,000+ in the first place.

That money could be better spent meeting some guys on the forum and learn "game." This way you're learning from someone that has a lifestyle beyond "pick-up," not by PUA types that haven't really done much in their life worth anything.

Some of this may have been repeated from prior posters, but just offering my own perspective.

[WestIndianArchie]

(10-15-2016 04:55 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

This guy didn't seem legit.

Game is different from "pick up."

Game is knowing what to do in all situations including buying something or getting into a special venue. Basically it's learning how to sell yourself.

"Pick-up" and "PUA" techniques are the mechanism to get better game but it focuses on picking up women and not self improvement. That's the problem.

Guys sign up for PUA boot camp, learn a bunch of techniques and then go back to their depressed state of hating themselves which is why they paid the PUA $1,000+ in the first place.

That money could be better spent meeting some guys on the forum and learn "game." This way you're learning from someone that has a lifestyle beyond "pick-up," not by PUA types that haven't really done much in their life worth anything.

Some of this may have been repeated from prior posters, but just offering my own perspective.

PUA techniques - are basically reverse engineered ACTIONS from guys that are "naturally" good with women.

Keep in mind, some of the guys that are naturally good with women - are beyond fucked up. And it's their fucked-upness that is what is attracting women. Women are attracted to all sorts of things, which is something that a lot of schools of Game don't ever recognize, in my experience.

Some of the guys that are naturally good with women are actually cool ass mf'ers. Everyone thinks they're cool. Little kids, other men, grandmas, cops... Men want to be him, and women want to fuck him.

Teasing a chick, asking her opinion, being self amused, telling stories, telling jokes, not reacting, having good body language, etc - those are things that basically spring forth from his background, upbringing and just dumb luck.

A bootcamp can basically put you on the path to learning the techniques.
And even that is like going to a personal trainer once thinking that you can do an Olympic level Clean and Jerk.

To cement the training, you need to keep going and going. Be able to practice without the trainer. You want to develop the muscle memory, the social muscle memory in order to have the technique down. And ideally, when stuff doesn't work, you can go back to the fundamentals and figure out what you're not doing right.

Ideally, if you learn the techniques, then the external action should change the internal. Just like learning to ride a bike or drive gives you a certain level of confidence that goes beyond the activity - game should, in theory, make other aspects of your life - including your inner life - better.

But I've seen that tech can get you laid, but it doesn't change the guy on the inside - UNLESS - he's aware that he needs to change. That was the problem with Mystery, Tyler, Style...all those guys. Something wasn't right on the inside. With Mystery, he preached abundance, but couldn't handle a bitch rolling with his "homeboy". Tyler was all tech - no soul. Style seemed to be using the women to fill some void in himself.

Internal change? All that woo woo shit?

Like most guys understand "inner game", as in the "inner game of tennis" - the original meaning. Basically that book was written on how to stop the negative self talk during the match itself.

Deeper internal change isn't about quieting the mind during a pull.

But "Zen shit" by itself won't get you laid.

I think Game is more simple and at the same time more complex than folks really think it is.

If you want a smoke show every night (my goal), a whole lot of shit has to come together.

WIA

[Philosopher]

(10-16-2016 11:23 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

To cement the training, you need to keep going and going. Be able to practice without the trainer. You want to develop the muscle memory, the social muscle memory in order to have the technique down. And ideally, when stuff doesn't work, you can go back to the fundamentals and figure out what you're not doing right.

Ideally, if you learn the techniques, then the external action should change the internal. Just like learning to ride a bike or drive gives you a certain level of confidence that goes beyond the activity - game should, in theory, make other aspects of your life - including your inner life - better.

But I've seen that tech can get you laid, but it doesn't change the guy on the inside - UNLESS - he's aware that he needs to change. That was the problem with Mystery, Tyler, Style...all those guys. Something wasn't right on the inside. With Mystery, he preached abundance, but couldn't handle a bitch rolling with his "homeboy". Tyler was all tech - no soul. Style seemed to be using the women to fill some void in himself.

Internal change? All that woo woo shit?

Like most guys understand "inner game", as in the "inner game of tennis" - the original meaning. Basically that book was written on how to stop the negative self talk during the match itself.

Deeper internal change isn't about quieting the mind during a pull.

But "Zen shit" by itself won't get you laid.

I think Game is more simple and at the same time more complex than folks really think it is.

If you want a smoke show every night (my goal), a whole lot of shit has to come together.

WIA

If you want to get good at something, you need to do it everyday. Like with sales, fitness, and game.

[Gorgiass]

(10-18-2016 10:04 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

If you want to get good at something, you need to do it everyday. Like with sales, fitness, and game.

In my opinion, bingeing on game for 7 hours in 1 day will up your skill levels more quickly than 1 hour for 7 days. First few approaches will be rougher than if you did a a couple the day before but they're throwaways. That's what works best for me anyway.

[Stroked351w]

(10-12-2016 10:40 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

"When are you gonna settle down?"

They're really asking, "Why don't you settle for less, like I have"

If living the life I want is selfish, so be it.

WIA

I needed to read this today, thanks WIA.