[RexImperator]

Reuters Wrote:

(Reuters) - Italy's prime minister on Thursday poured cold water on a campaign promoted by his health minister aimed at convincing couples to have more children.

"I don't know of any of my friends who had kids after they saw an advertisement," Matteo Renzi said in a radio interview.

He was speaking a day after the ministry announced it would host meetings in four cities to encourage couples to have children. Italy has an aging population and the fertility rate in Italy last year was 1.35 children per woman, compared with an EU average of 1.6.

In 2015, fewer babies were born in Italy than in any year since the modern state was founded 154 years ago, and the population shrank for the first time in three decades.

"If you want to create a society that invests in its future and has children, you have to make sure the underlying conditions are there," such as making sure the parents have stable jobs and day-care services, Renzi said.

Health Minister Beatrice Lorenzin launched the campaign on Wednesday with the @FertilityDay Twitter handle and a series of online ads.

One pictured a woman holding an hourglass next to the words: "Beauty has no age limit. Fertility does." Another pictured a man holding a half-burned cigarette. "Don't let your sperm go up in smoke," it said.

The Fertility Day campaign also set off criticism on social media for appearing to blame women for putting off child-bearing, and for appearing not to understand the real causes for Italy's low birth rate.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN11757W

Basically, lefties are calling the effort sexist and fascist.

Apparently it has gone viral and spawned a bunch of spoof memes.

[General Stalin]

Curious what the "experts" think the "real" reason is for low birthrate if not for women putting off children until too late or all together...

[TigerMandingo]

(09-01-2016 04:24 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  

Curious what the "experts" think the "real" reason is for low birthrate if not for women putting off children until too late or all together...

It's not all feminism, though. Raising kids is getting to be super expensive. In Italy, it's not uncommon for dudes to still be living with their parents well into their 30s, and it's not necessarily because they're losers but because there aren't enough decent jobs around to afford renting your own place.

[Orion]

No honest effort to boost population of Europeans and stem decadence shall go unpunished

[911]

Mandingo is right, in southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Greece), young people really want to get married and women are more feminine than in northern Europe. They are mostly prevented from this by economic rather than cultural forces. Not the same thing in N. Europe and N. America where it's more about feminism wrecking families.

That's why I think southern Europe/northern mediterranean is a good place to look for a wife.

[godzilla]

Disagree about Southern Europe, those girls are just as feminist. Just because they dress nice and don't cut their hair short doesn't mean they aren't feminist. Many of them have chosen to delay marriage and children just like their western counterparts.

I agree it plays a minor role, but If it were all about economics, some of the poorest countries wouldnt have some of the highest birth rates.

Nothing is really stopping people from getting married, you don't have to have kids to do it. Yet average age of marriage is just as high as in Spain and Italy then everywhere else in Europe.

[DamienCasanova]

(09-01-2016 04:53 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

(09-01-2016 04:24 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  

Curious what the "experts" think the "real" reason is for low birthrate if not for women putting off children until too late or all together...

It's not all feminism, though. Raising kids is getting to be super expensive. In Italy, it's not uncommon for dudes to still be living with their parents well into their 30s, and it's not necessarily because they're losers but because there aren't enough decent jobs around to afford renting your own place.

Italy's entire economy is about one bank error away from an entire collapse right now. Several of their large banks are under water and they have been in trouble for a long time, and many have never recovered from before the last crash in 2008. They have really had financial trouble there for the last several decades, and for one of the top 10 economies in the world, it's very bad news for the rest of us thanks to our globalized financial system being so closely tied together.

[YossariansRight]

(09-01-2016 07:10 PM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  

(09-01-2016 04:53 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

(09-01-2016 04:24 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  

Curious what the "experts" think the "real" reason is for low birthrate if not for women putting off children until too late or all together...

It's not all feminism, though. Raising kids is getting to be super expensive. In Italy, it's not uncommon for dudes to still be living with their parents well into their 30s, and it's not necessarily because they're losers but because there aren't enough decent jobs around to afford renting your own place.

Italy's entire economy is about one bank error away from an entire collapse right now. Several of their large banks are under water and they have been in trouble for a long time, and many have never recovered from before the last crash in 2008. They have really had financial trouble there for the last several decades, and for one of the top 10 economies in the world, it's very bad news for the rest of us thanks to our globalized financial system being so closely tied together.

Amen, amico!

Italy suffers from gross mismanagement at nearly every level. Forget everything else, they should be swimming in prosperity just from their tourism industry alone. Add in their other industries, such as agriculture, fashion, automotive, etc. and they should be a true economic shining star of Europe and the world.

Instead, they literally can't get out of their own way. It's sad to see our homeland in such a state.

[General Stalin]

I think that's bull. The whole myth of planning reproduction around what is more fiscally responsible; normal people don't do that. I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about social aid benefits in Southern European countries or whether or not having children actually drive people into pverty, but being poor never stopped people from fucking and making babies. Actually the poorest people tend to have the highest birthrates. Go figure.

It's cultural, not financial.

[StrikeBack]

(09-01-2016 04:53 PM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

Raising kids is getting to be super expensive.

Is it really? Or is it only expensive if one follows a blue pill script?

If a family removes the needs for:

- Fancy / new children clothes (because children grow fast and don't need new clothes all the time) - either wear hand-me-downs, op-shops or the mother makes them
- Shiny new toys (because children can have fun with self-made toys - I see kids enjoy playing with leaves off a tree more than expensive toys)
- Dumb ipads and the likes
- Store bought foods / eating out for children (because the mother should cook)
- Stupid useless classes (the parents should be able to teach them better at home)
- Lame private schooling that no longer teaches them anything useful
- College funds - because college/university is a rip off these days

where is this great expense?

Kids don't eat much food, don't wear much clothes, don't need any money or materials to have a good time, can learn plenty from the world and from free books because they are naturally curious. They shouldn't be super expensive to raise.

[DamienCasanova]

Well the economic situation there doesn't help things, it's all smoke and mirrors right now all the good jobs are with the banks and the banks are going under. Regular shit in Italy is a lot more expensive than it used to be since they went to the Euro. I won't say that's the whole reason the birthrate is so low, I think it is a large cultural problem there right now as well. The people are still very traditional, but as the Roman Catholic church has morphed into a social justice religion of faggotry and muslim submission, the people who take their lead so closely from the church have been lead astray. Italy also suffers from the same sort of WW2 depression and guilt that Germany is currently experiencing, and are so afraid of their own Mussolini to Germany's Hitler that they bend over backwards to be super progressive and PC as well. The older (infertile) women are still very old fashioned and traditional and easy to talk to, but the younger women there seem a lot more terrified of normal social interactions than they used to be, thanks to feminism they have been socially conditioned to be so isolated and afraid of nearly every man that they come across.
It's a lot more than feminism, but it all ties together, it's a perfect storm for societal collapse.

[YossariansRight]

(09-01-2016 07:49 PM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  

Well the economic situation there doesn't help things, it's all smoke and mirrors right now, and regular shit in Italy is a lot more expensive than it used to be since they went to the Euro. I won't say that's the whole reason the birthrate is so low, I think it is a large cultural problem there right now as well. The people are still very traditional, but as the Roman Catholic church has morphed into a social justice religion of faggotry and muslim submission, the people who take their lead so closely from the church have been lead astray. Italy also suffers from the same sort of WW2 depression and guilt that Germany is currently experiencing, and are so afraid of their own Mussolini to Germany's Hitler that they bend over backwards to be super progressive and PC as well. The older (infertile) women are still very old fashioned and traditional and easy to talk to, but the younger women there seem a lot more terrified of normal social interactions than they used to be, thanks to feminism they have been socially conditioned to be so isolated and afraid of nearly every man that they come across.

^^That's some hardcore truth right there, paisano!

[SamuelBRoberts]

"I think that's bull. The whole myth of planning reproduction around what is more fiscally responsible; normal people don't do that. I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about social aid benefits in Southern European countries or whether or not having children actually drive people into pverty, but being poor never stopped people from fucking and making babies. Actually the poorest people tend to have the highest birthrates. Go figure."


You've never heard anyone say "We couldn't afford to have kids?"
Or "We couldn't afford to have another kid?"

[General Stalin]

Yeah people say it all the time these days. That doesn't change the truth of what I said. That's what I'm getting at. This "fiscally responsible family planning" is a modern day thing. It came from this social programming where middle class people think having children is insanely expensive for some reason. We live in an age where it is the easiest to have children. So many nations, especially Western nations, have amazingly helpful social aid programs. Too helpful even to the point where I have personally known people who actually get knocked up intentionally so they can get more handouts and monthly benefits from the state.

[Repo]

How about the fact that nobody wants to raise kids in a shit neighborhood with shit schools? And childcare costs? Its harder now to raise a family on a one income household, which means either the wife works and you pay childcare, or you move to a lower income area and squeeze by. If you are not paying for private school, and you live in a low income area, then guess what. . .your kids education will probably suck.

[DamienCasanova]

(09-01-2016 09:05 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  

Yeah people say it all the time these days. That doesn't change the truth of what I said. That's what I'm getting at. This "fiscally responsible family planning" is a modern day thing. It came from this social programming where middle class people think having children is insanely expensive for some reason. We live in an age where it is the easiest to have children. So many nations, especially Western nations, have amazingly helpful social aid programs. Too helpful even to the point where I have personally known people who actually get knocked up intentionally so they can get more handouts and monthly benefits from the state.

I agree with you, it's amazing how in only a few generations, social conditioning has subverted thousands of years of reproductive and evolutionary instinct.

If population reduction was the ultimate goal, it's amazing how "the elites" have duped us into thinning ourselves out through cultural programming.

[RexImperator]

It's hard if you're a striver.

[Orion]

(09-01-2016 06:48 PM)911 Wrote:  

Mandingo is right, in southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Greece), young people really want to get married and women are more feminine than in northern Europe. They are mostly prevented from this by economic rather than cultural forces. Not the same thing in N. Europe and N. America where it's more about feminism wrecking families.

That's why I think southern Europe/northern mediterranean is a good place to look for a wife.

That's absolutely not true

Italy and Spain have to be the most pozed places there are in Europe, with deviant lifestyles being widely accepted, promoted and practiced. Spend an afternoon in even smaller cities like Trieste and you will find almost none of that traditional family vibe, only people, male and female, in business attire rushing somewhere.

I guess southern Italy is somewhat more traditional. But anything north of Naples is definitely not.

As of Spain, i will only say lol. The place is infested with homos, immigrants, women with ugly dyed hair and obnoxious hairstyles, effeminate looking males, etc. True, in smaller places people are normal looking, but so are in USA. That's not the point.

[Akwesi]

So what if the young men in Italy don't have money? It's not the men who need to have kids while they are still young.

Obviously men of means in their 40s should be impregnating women in their 20s, the problem is a failure to understand how traditional differences in age have their roots in both biology and economics.

Natural pairings of mature, established men with fertile women are now considered "creepy," while young women staying home to raise kids and take care of elders instead of getting a bullshit degree and working a pointless job is "oppressive."

The real oppression, however, is corporations and the state pushing women into the work force to increase productivity while destroying the family. Destroying the family is in turn a boon to both as it makes people more eager to fill their lives with trinkets and gadgets while becoming increasingly dependent on the state for every service and subsidy imaginable.

[oscarwalde]

(09-01-2016 06:48 PM)911 Wrote:  

Mandingo is right, in southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Greece), young people really want to get married and women are more feminine than in northern Europe. They are mostly prevented from this by economic rather than cultural forces. Not the same thing in N. Europe and N. America where it's more about feminism wrecking families.

That's why I think southern Europe/northern mediterranean is a good place to look for a wife.

Correct, the women of France, Spain & Italy are more feminine than all other Western women.
James Marshall and James Maclane (Australian PUAS) talk about this in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Is_8Fc2jc0

[Malone]

In my part of Spain I am surrounded by hordes of attractive, feminine women.

The Spanish men are largely pretty average, with a fairly large dose of hipster faggots. The female counterpart is fairly rare, but you do see them.

There's definitely lots of people with big families here. My landlord has 5 daughters. My neighbor (his brother), has a bunch of children as well (not sure the exact number).

I don't see a lot of obvious immigrants. Some South Americans. Some Africans obviously here illegally (selling counterfeit shit on the streets). A few hijabs. Nothing out of control.

One thing that I did hear from a friend of mine with a large family here - up until recently there was a tax credit or monthly payment or something for each kid, and that's now gone. Stupid. Definitely need to incentivise European children.

I still plan to have 5.

[getdownonit]

Number of kids is a generational thing. All of my aunts and uncles, ~50 years old give or take, are one of 5+ siblings, and that's not counting those that died in childbirth or very young which was common back in Rural Spain in the 50s and 60s. None of them have more than two kids each, all born after Democracy and Globalization hit Spain.



It doesn't take long to fuck up a society

Looks like the 2008 recession led to a birthrate drop also ^

[Private Man]

There is a direct correlation between an educated native populace and declining birthrates. It's an unintended consequence.

[DaveR]

It's about taxes. Real estate prices, mortgage rates, income and land taxes have risen to the point where families can't sustain themselves on a single income. Most of that tax revenue should be returned as rebates for families, but due to corruption, mismanagement and aged pensions, it doesn't happen. Even the socialist side in Italy has admitted that a major reduction in taxes is needed.