[Mage]

(08-14-2016 09:44 AM)Repo Wrote:  

How exactly are you defining whats good for society? If a white collar job produces wages which the worker can then reinvest into the economy, rather than rely on government handouts, isn't that good for society?

This is the modern economist thinking - that economy is some beast that you have to feed for the sole purpose of feeding it - it's almost like some sort of cult where you must sacrifice to the idol of the money circulation. Scary. But it is not cological, healthy, ergonomical, healthy - call it what you will it must die.


Opposite to the economist thinking is the ecologist thinking - do only those jobs that benefit real needs in the spare time be independent, live holistic life, have time for relationships and personal growth, work your land for vegetables if you must, choose to be not too wealthy but choose to be more fulfilled and happy - this thinking must win if don't want to turn into borg.

[TheFinalEpic]

(08-14-2016 09:17 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 09:03 AM)TheFinalEpic Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 08:45 AM)Mage Wrote:  

As for longer working hours - try telling that bullshit to Swiss, Norwegians, Swedes, Dutch and Germans - all those countries have a higher standard of living with less work, the only things bad in these countries is feminism and Muslim immigration

And socialism.

Everyone is the same. There is no progress that comes out of those slavic countries. You don't hear about the next big healthcare discovery, the next amazing technology, or anything at all. Germans are an exceptionally industrious people, they shouldn't be mentioned next to the Swedes or Norwegians.

LoL. None of these countries is socialist or Slavic. If you have in mind some covert Frankfurt school socialism then it's the same in America too.

Germans work less then Americans - it's hard to find a shop open on Sunday on Germany.

All these European countries did as much innovation than America until WW2 - after that these countries were devastated, best scientists emigrated to America and Germany has to pay fiscal and cultural reparations to this day - that's what Merkel letting in immigrants is - a reparation for WW2. The fact that WW2 made America the sole superpower it is is obvious to anyone but the most brainwashed.

Next thing you guys will argue is that Americans defeated Germans in WW2 and not Soviets. Look patriotism is nice and I am not saying America is bad but you must stay realistic - you are not the God's chosen people.

Nordic, excuse me. Sweden is most definitely socialist, Norway as well.

I don't see them innovating today, even with such high standards of living. We're coming up on 70+ years since WWII, the Germans are a self-loathing people because they still seem to think they are nazis. It's like my prime minister making apologies to natives and gays for shit that happened before he was even born.

I'm Canadian, not American.

Now, I fully agree with most guys saying the sentiment of "work" is moving papers around a desk not really doing anything for 8 hours. But, the people who actually make a difference work far more than that every day, mostly unpaid until their venture takes off. I also fully agree that most work is not necessary to even be physically present nowadays too.

People should be paid on completion of work, not on some arbitrary "8 hour work day". I've seen what time for money does to people, they'll drag on work days to get paid more and have no motivation to complete work in a timely manner.

[TooFineAPoint]

(08-14-2016 08:45 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 08:39 AM)Cobra Wrote:  

The reason people in America enjoy the standard of living they do is because everyone works and work hours are higher. Reducing them across the board is a careless idea because it will affect productivity significantly where it's needed and affect it marginally where it's not needed.

The reason people in America enjoy the standard of living they do has nothing to do with long working hours. These are the real reasons:

1)America won the WW2
2)America won the cold war
3)American dollar is the reserve currency
4)America has the strongest military in the world and can enforce beneficial trade agreements
5)America has the fed and is the only country that can print out money out of nothing.
6)America aggressively exports it's culture worldwide trough Holywood and McDonalds.

As for longer working hours - try telling that bullshit to Swiss, Norwegians, Swedes, Dutch and Germans - all those countries have a higher standard of living with less work, the only things bad in these countries is feminism and Muslim immigration.

Also Sales is not a real job. It's business. A miner, plumber, electrician, teacher, nurse or factory worker who doesn't get a percentage from his job and only has a fixed salary has a different attitude towards work than you. But their work is more needed then yours.

Your points about the wars and the Fed are well taken and certainly contribute.

However, the parts I bolded are highly hyperbolic and purely opinion based.

North American culture blows everyone else out of the water in terms of convenience and service. Some of that has to do with a huge expanse of land and abundant resources. Some to Protestant work ethic of settlers, etc etc. Lot of moving parts.

[Repo]

@Mage

So if we elimate the 'unneeded" jobs, what will we do with all the jobless people? Will they live off of the fruits of the workers? If we follow this train of thought to its conclusion, I can't see how the end result isn't socialism.

Also, why should society want to maintain rather than flourish? If we are in a maintain mindset, what is the motivation to innovate?

[Saweeep]

(08-14-2016 10:03 AM)Repo Wrote:  

@Mage

So if we elimate the 'unneeded" jobs, what will we do with all the jobless people? Will they live off of the fruits of the workers? If we follow this train of thought to its conclusion, I can't see how the end result isn't socialism.

Also, why should society want to maintain rather than flourish? If we are in a maintain mindset, what is the motivation to innovate?

This is the million dollar question facing all Western societies over thenext 20+ years.

[Mage]

(08-14-2016 10:02 AM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 08:45 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 08:39 AM)Cobra Wrote:  

The reason people in America enjoy the standard of living they do is because everyone works and work hours are higher. Reducing them across the board is a careless idea because it will affect productivity significantly where it's needed and affect it marginally where it's not needed.

The reason people in America enjoy the standard of living they do has nothing to do with long working hours. These are the real reasons:

1)America won the WW2
2)America won the cold war
3)American dollar is the reserve currency
4)America has the strongest military in the world and can enforce beneficial trade agreements
5)America has the fed and is the only country that can print out money out of nothing.
6)America aggressively exports it's culture worldwide trough Holywood and McDonalds.

As for longer working hours - try telling that bullshit to Swiss, Norwegians, Swedes, Dutch and Germans - all those countries have a higher standard of living with less work, the only things bad in these countries is feminism and Muslim immigration.

Also Sales is not a real job. It's business. A miner, plumber, electrician, teacher, nurse or factory worker who doesn't get a percentage from his job and only has a fixed salary has a different attitude towards work than you. But their work is more needed then yours.

Your points about the wars and the Fed are well taken and certainly contribute.

However, the parts I bolded are highly hyperbolic and purely opinion based.

North American culture blows everyone else out of the water in terms of convenience and service. Some of that has to do with a huge expanse of land and abundant resources. Some to Protestant work ethic of settlers, etc etc. Lot of moving parts.

Obviously I oversimplified some things to have some brevity.

The point is each country has some good points and bad points, America has many good points, like liberty of speech and bear arms but workaholism is not one of them in my opinion.

[scorpion]

(08-14-2016 09:44 AM)Repo Wrote:  

How exactly are you defining whats good for society? If a white collar job produces wages which the worker can then reinvest into the economy, rather than rely on government handouts, isn't that good for society?

Imagine that the government suddenly declares that breaking peoples' legs is legal. So I start a business breaking peoples' legs. I hire legbreakers to go around breaking legs. My customers pay me to break the legs of people they don't like. Business is good. I'm paying all of my legbreakers good salaries and making a tidy profit myself. I am thriving in the free market and stimulating all sorts of economic growth:

Doctors and ambulance drivers have more business
Private security guards are booming
Insurance specifically protecting against broken legs is now a thing
Inventors create new products to help those with broken legs

All that being the case: is my business good for society?

The answer is obviously not. We understand this intuitively. And yet there is a strong economic case otherwise. This is because most economics is total bullshit junk theory.

Strict economic theory fails because it values only that which can be measured in units of currency. The world's most intellectually honest economist would advise you to shoot your 85 year old grandmother in the face and steal her bingo money rather than care for her in her old age. That's thinking "economically".

[Repo]

@Crash

The funny (or sad) thing is we are facing it now. The reason many people work long hours at my current and previous jobs are because companies refuse to hire more workers, since that would cost more. But legally companies are required to make decisions that are in the best interest of the shareholders, and not society. Developing an effective system where executives are responsible for both societies goals and the shareholders would be incredibly complicated. Not that it couldn't be done, but thats well above my pay grade. A fun thought expirement nonetheless. And who would define societies goals? Even coming up with this idea in the real world would be polluted by corporate interests and corruption.

@Scorpion

Right I agree, but with the exception of niche industries like payday lenders, I don't think real life is as black and white as those examples.

[puckerman]

(08-14-2016 06:52 AM)Tekka Wrote:  

I work 12-16 hours a day, 6 days a week. If I was in Sweden, they'd probably chain me out of a building just to prevent me from out working other people.

And you post this as if you are proud of it?

[puckerman]

Work hours are also increased by massive disorganization. I work in information technology, which is almost always totally disorganized. In many companies, there is a lot of noise and not much actual communication. People are always working to get things done in a hurry instead of developing ways to do things efficiently. People look ten minutes instead of ten years because nobody trusts anybody. There is also massive turnover because there is no loyalty. Everyone eventually gets bored or fed up and leaves thinking "the grass is greener" somewhere else. It's why people eventually get out of it.

[chicane]

(08-14-2016 10:43 AM)puckerman Wrote:  

Work hours are also increased by massive disorganization. I work in information technology, which is almost always totally disorganized. In many companies, there is a lot of noise and not much actual communication. People are always working to get things done in a hurry instead of developing ways to do things efficiently. People look ten minutes instead of ten years because nobody trusts anybody. There is also massive turnover because there is no loyalty. Everyone eventually gets bored or fed up and leaves thinking "the grass is greener" somewhere else. It's why people eventually get out of it.

I quit my previous job because I was doing only about a half hour of work in a typical week and the security rules prohibited me from doing any other online activities, including bringing any electronic devices other than my phone to work. I listened to a lot of podcasts and read a number of business development books, but it was driving me crazy, I need to accomplish things.

[Diogenes]

(08-14-2016 09:28 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

The millions of people employed pushing paper in government bureaucracies? Makework.

Actually a mixture of makework and parasites - some of them are enforcing regulations which impede people actually trying to get real work done.

[nomadbrah]

The main reason Europeans and particularly Nordic countries work few hours is because prodictivity is sky high. It's not because socialism just magically allows fewer working hours, it's because they have high IQ and work extremely diciplined when they actually work.

[General Stalin]

How does this work economically?

People who make an hourly wage will be losing a lot of money - unless their wages/taxes get adjusted so they are netting the same income. Also means many businesses will have poor operating hours; opening later/closing earlier. Businesses that keep regular hours will need to hire more staff which will cost more money.

[AFS]

(08-14-2016 05:34 AM)Alpha_Romeo Wrote:  

I would rather have a 4-day workweek (8.5 h/d) instead. Can you imagine the positive impact on people, society in terms of health/wellness and happiness?

I agree with this 100%. My problem isn't working 8, 9, 10+ hours. It's taking care of your personal business when you work during the 5 official workdays.

This was always a huge problem for me and I still have no idea how most people do it year after year. Why? For example, when do you do your taxes? When do you go for court dates? When do you go to your landlord/lawyer/whatever when you have an issue? How about taking your phone/laptop in for repair when it breaks?

Since most businesses work until 4 or 5 PM, mon-fri, if you work the same schedule you are basically fucked.

People are forced to take vacation days or sick days just to handle basic things like these. One day off during the week would be a godsend.

[Satoshi]

Sweden could not imply such laws because there would not be enough people to employee. Unemployment in Sweden is 7.6% and many of those people don't even want to work. They'd find another way to support them self even if that means leaving on welfare.

Everyone in Sweden who is employed in the same company for more than one year does by law have the right to four, or sometimes five weeks off continuously holiday in June to August. Hence the work force is greatly reduced during these months which is causing problems in many business. For exempel there is a lack of nurses and doctor. Also teachers are in big demands, however kids also have holiday in the summer.

Earlier this year 60 Filipino nurses got employment with a private Swedish company who runs many home for elderly. This Filipino nurses would get one years education back home (Manila I guess) in Swedish languages then they'll start working in Sweden. .

Bottom line is that if everyone were to work 30 hours per week instead of 40 the system would not work. It does work in some business though as article says. Other times if might be a move by the employee to easier requite.

If immigrants (muslim and others) wasn't doing low-skilled work like making pizza well then there simply wouldn't be anyone making pizza because there wouldn't be anyone to employee.

[Akwesi]

(08-14-2016 12:10 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

The main reason Europeans and particularly Nordic countries work few hours is because prodictivity is sky high. It's not because socialism just magically allows fewer working hours, it's because they have high IQ and work extremely diciplined when they actually work.

This is very much on point. Although Scandinavians love time off from work, they are very conscientious and work hard when they are supposed to. Honestly it is almost scary to me to see how people with dead-end and presumably excruciatingly boring jobs carry on with great energy and enthusiasm into their 50s and 60s. This is how these societies in many ways continue to thrive despite social democracy, immigration, political correctness, etc.

During the financial crisis some Northern Europeans were complaining about Southern Europeans being lazy and others defended them by saying that "Greeks work more hours than Germans." As if the number of hours on paper make any difference whatsoever. By this metric African countries would be the most productive at all, a lot of people there "work" 12 hours a day, 6 hours a week.

[Jones]

I hear you about accomplishing things at work, chicane.

Getting paid to accomplish fuck all kills motivation at work where you just bother to show up for the pay check.

[Repo]

But there is a reason lower skilled jobs are measured more by hours worked than higher skilled jobs.

For example, say you have an assembly line running 24/7, and someone needs to monitor it the entire time. The lower skilled worker will be proud of monitoring it for 12 hours. Meanwhile the higher skilled worker will make strategic decisions about what equipment to purchase, how many lines are needed, what new products the company can get into, etc etc. This higher skilled work is measured more by the quality of the decisions, and not the hours.

So its easy to look down on people working high hours and say they should just work smarter, but many jobs require hours to be put in. More advanced economies simply have more of these high level jobs than poorer countries. Real life just isn't as simple as comparing hours and making a generalized statement.

[nomadbrah]

(08-14-2016 02:03 PM)Akwesi Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 12:10 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

The main reason Europeans and particularly Nordic countries work few hours is because prodictivity is sky high. It's not because socialism just magically allows fewer working hours, it's because they have high IQ and work extremely diciplined when they actually work.

This is very much on point. Although Scandinavians love time off from work, they are very conscientious and work hard when they are supposed to. Honestly it is almost scary to me to see how people with dead-end and presumably excruciatingly boring jobs carry on with great energy and enthusiasm into their 50s and 60s. This is how these societies in many ways continue to thrive despite social democracy, immigration, political correctness, etc.

During the financial crisis some Northern Europeans were complaining about Southern Europeans being lazy and others defended them by saying that "Greeks work more hours than Germans." As if the number of hours on paper make any difference whatsoever. By this metric African countries would be the most productive at all, a lot of people there "work" 12 hours a day, 6 hours a week.

It's changed though, socialism has created a lower class of ethnic Nordics (not just immigrants) where entire generations are on welfare.

They're all being held up by extremely efficient high tech production like Volvo, Bang and Olufsen and Ikea, and a lot of medico production. Their farming is also extremely efficient, so efficient that there is practically no countryside anymore, just farmers with absolutely massive high tech farms. Not my thing to be honest.

[PainPositive]

(08-14-2016 08:45 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 08:39 AM)Cobra Wrote:  

The reason people in America enjoy the standard of living they do is because everyone works and work hours are higher. Reducing them across the board is a careless idea because it will affect productivity significantly where it's needed and affect it marginally where it's not needed.

The reason people in America enjoy the standard of living they do has nothing to do with long working hours. These are the real reasons:

1)America won the WW2
2)America won the cold war
3)American dollar is the reserve currency
4)America has the strongest military in the world and can enforce beneficial trade agreements
5)America has the fed and is the only country that can print out money out of nothing.
6)America aggressively exports it's culture worldwide trough Holywood and McDonalds.

As for longer working hours - try telling that bullshit to Swiss, Norwegians, Swedes, Dutch and Germans - all those countries have a higher standard of living with less work, the only things bad in these countries is feminism and Muslim immigration.

Also Sales is not a real job. It's business. A miner, plumber, electrician, teacher, nurse or factory worker who doesn't get a percentage from his job and only has a fixed salary has a different attitude towards work than you. But their work is more needed then yours.

[PainPositive]

(08-14-2016 10:11 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 10:02 AM)TooFineAPoint Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 08:45 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 08:39 AM)Cobra Wrote:  

The reason people in America enjoy the standard of living they do is because everyone works and work hours are higher. Reducing them across the board is a careless idea because it will affect productivity significantly where it's needed and affect it marginally where it's not needed.

The reason people in America enjoy the standard of living they do has nothing to do with long working hours. These are the real reasons:

1)America won the WW2
2)America won the cold war
3)American dollar is the reserve currency
4)America has the strongest military in the world and can enforce beneficial trade agreements
5)America has the fed and is the only country that can print out money out of nothing.
6)America aggressively exports it's culture worldwide trough Holywood and McDonalds.

As for longer working hours - try telling that bullshit to Swiss, Norwegians, Swedes, Dutch and Germans - all those countries have a higher standard of living with less work, the only things bad in these countries is feminism and Muslim immigration.

Also Sales is not a real job. It's business. A miner, plumber, electrician, teacher, nurse or factory worker who doesn't get a percentage from his job and only has a fixed salary has a different attitude towards work than you. But their work is more needed then yours.

Your points about the wars and the Fed are well taken and certainly contribute.

However, the parts I bolded are highly hyperbolic and purely opinion based.

North American culture blows everyone else out of the water in terms of convenience and service. Some of that has to do with a huge expanse of land and abundant resources. Some to Protestant work ethic of settlers, etc etc. Lot of moving parts.

Obviously I oversimplified some things to have some brevity.

The point is each country has some good points and bad points, America has many good points, like liberty of speech and bear arms but workaholism is not one of them in my opinion.

Bro, you need to do some reading into the subject because you're way off here.

and here.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93364&page=1

Americans don't work more only because work is engrained into the culture but because they have to. American families have lots of bills and simply have to work constantly to make payments. The way Europeans take a month or even two off in the summer is unheard of in the states.

And out of curiosity where do you get such strong opinions from? You seem to be unread in the subject and not from the states. Why do you think you know so much?

[RedPillUK]

Yes ok, the West is the best and everything but don't live in a bubble and think it's superior in all aspects. I'm in Mexico and 12 hour shifts in blistering heat is pretty normal here, amongst men and women, young and old.

There's not much of a social welfare state in developing countries so if you haven't got a job you're going to have to find one, or make your own selling water or tacos in the street or collecting recyclable waste or something, or you just starve or become a criminal.

If you told somone here you just spent 12 to 16 hours at work they would probably look at you blankly waiting for you to finish your story.

[SamuelBRoberts]

"Yes ok, the West is the best and everything but don't live in a bubble and think it's superior in all aspects. I'm in Mexico and 12 hour shifts in blistering heat is pretty normal here, amongst men and women, young and old.
There's not much of a social welfare state in developing countries so if you haven't got a job you're going to have to find one, or make your own selling water or tacos in the street or collecting recyclable waste or something, or you just starve or become a criminal.
If you told somone here you just spent 12 to 16 hours at work they would probably look at you blankly waiting for you to finish your story."

That's because Mexico is a corrupt dump, and a technological backwater.

The idea that working lots of hours is, de-facto, proof of some sort of moral superiority is one of the most bewildering things about modern American discourse. Every time I hear a politician say that Mexican immigrants should be let into the country because they're "hard-working" I want to send him to work on an 18-hour chain gang shift.

Good for the Swedes, I say. Every year the economy gets more and more productive, and yet working hours have gone up or stayed the same, while standards of living haven't gotten any better. If the Swedes want to work fewer hours, more power to them. I hope they take the spare time in their day and do something fun and relaxing.

[Cobra]

(08-14-2016 08:45 AM)Mage Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 08:39 AM)Cobra Wrote:  

The reason people in America enjoy the standard of living they do is because everyone works and work hours are higher. Reducing them across the board is a careless idea because it will affect productivity significantly where it's needed and affect it marginally where it's not needed.

The reason people in America enjoy the standard of living they do has nothing to do with long working hours. These are the real reasons:

1)America won the WW2
2)America won the cold war
3)American dollar is the reserve currency
4)America has the strongest military in the world and can enforce beneficial trade agreements
5)America has the fed and is the only country that can print out money out of nothing.
6)America aggressively exports it's culture worldwide trough Holywood and McDonalds.

As for longer working hours - try telling that bullshit to Swiss, Norwegians, Swedes, Dutch and Germans - all those countries have a higher standard of living with less work, the only things bad in these countries is feminism and Muslim immigration.

Also Sales is not a real job. It's business. A miner, plumber, electrician, teacher, nurse or factory worker who doesn't get a percentage from his job and only has a fixed salary has a different attitude towards work than you. But their work is more needed then yours.

While I agree with some of your points, your implication that productivity has nothing to do with a country's standard of living makes no sense. Tell that to China and Korea who work more than us.

If GDP can be used as a measure, none of the countries you mentioned have one as high as the US.

On top of this, most of those professions you mentioned were support or infrastructure strengthening functions, except mining which is production based. You need both for a high standard of living. Person A produces coal, while person B takes care of his health and person C taught him how.

My mind is also blown from your comment that sales isn't a real job and it's just business. Without business nothing moves, not the coal, not your car and not even your hair. It's great that miners and factory workers work real hard to produce a product, but a lack of customers and supply chain abilities, the product becomes obsolete and wasteful. All the good feelings a miner or a factory guy gets wouldn't exist if top sales people didn't price the product properly and move it fast enough. It isn't moving itself and automatically being sold.

America simply puts more time into all this period. This doesn't come with 6 hour work days.

I've done hard labor, support and now sales. I do sales because it's the hardest and most rewarding of all. It takes strategy and planning to make a business more money, not just routine step by step execution like in the professions you mentioned.