[AlphaRN]

`` The decision to intervene is really up to them, but chalking it up as white knighting is ignorant.''

Do you honestly believe they would have cared if he was chasing another guy? I doubt it.

[scrambled]

(07-29-2016 12:36 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  

Yes, this situation is grey and questionable, but that doesn't call for extrapolating sweeping speculation of white knighting anytime the perso being attacked is a woman as some here have said.

The aforementioned extrapolation is the most likely explanation.

[TonySandos]

No... it's really not.

So you're saying greater than 50% of the time a woman is being pursued by an attacker, she brought it upon herself. Crime statistics don't even back that up.

I understand many of you are willing to die on this hill before admitting that the judgement lent was reaching, but that's ok.

[TonySandos]

(07-29-2016 12:49 PM)AlphaRN Wrote:  

`` The decision to intervene is really up to them, but chalking it up as white knighting is ignorant.''

Do you honestly believe they would have cared if he was chasing another guy? I doubt it.

Yes I do, as 'local hero' stories are actively shared by military periodicals and most often the situation involves military personnel stopping robberies. If you don't think military folk would help an old man stay safe, you should look into it before letting the chip on your shoulder talk for you.

Not all of us exist in the cynical perception that many of you share. The personal hurt of "it's not fair women are treated like/get [x] in society" is really shining through. There's underlying tone of animosity for women here.

BY ALL MEANS look out for your own safety first and be wary.

I want to know how that turns into; "These fucking women expecting help when the physically dominant sex is attacking them. You, me and everyone else that knows it's true that they have no chance in hell to protect themselves. They get all these extra benefits from society and that makes me angry, so I wish ill on them and speculate wild accusations toward their collective guilt because of one story about a drug ho validates my myopic world view. WHY AREN'T THEY FUCKING ME MORE!?"

[AlphaRN]

Man, you love some hyperbole. I am not sure if you are even being serious at this point.

The only chip on my shoulder is the one that could be fixed by getting rid of Narcan.
This case is open and closed. There is no reaching and no judgement. People are speaking about this topic. If you want to rant about how unfair this board is too men who die protecting women, do it in another post.
Two idiots tried to help a drug-addicted thief and ended up dead. Their military status has nothing to do with it. They, in this instance, are the ones who jumped to a conclusion, a false one, and paid with their lives for it. Had they simply minded their own business, they would be alive. End of story.

[Stirfry]

Quote:

Terrible, they fight and serve the country deploying to wars but then lose their lives over a drug addict woman in the USA.

The cowardice is ever thinking you can have a peaceful and civil society without some good men sacrificing themselves.

[/quote]

Men must sacrifice themselves? Who determines who gets sacrificed and when, and more importantly, for what cause? Isn't that why we are all here- to put a stop to the sacrifices? These were people's lives. You are being very cavalier.

[Htownanddown]

I know people in the military and regular citizens who would jump in to help anyone who looked like they were in need of help. It is a good thing to live in a society where people try to protect their fellow citizens from harm. Of course you never know the circumstances that led to the incident and everyone has the right to be cautious in a situation like this. However, to say that anyone who gets hurt or killed protecting a woman is putting the pussy on a pedestal or white knighting, I think is misguided.

[jamaicabound]

I dont' know we can call this "white knighting'. This isn't just a couple guys who decide to get into other people's business they are soldiers trained to intervene in conflicts, heck Iraq and Afghanistan soldiers are forced to be cops and mediators more than even soldiers so I think its just second nature for them to get involved in situations like this.

I tend to get the feeling a lot of people seem to think being a decent human being and trying to help people is "white knighting" or something to be looked down upon. We hear stories all the time of people being beatup, raped, kidnapped, etc on a train in front of 50 people and nobody does shit. I would hope if that was my sister or mom someone would step in and do something.

[AlphaRN]

``This isn't just a couple guys who decide to get into other people's business they are soldiers trained to intervene in conflicts, heck Iraq and Afghanistan soldiers are forced to be cops and mediators more than even soldiers so I think its just second nature for them to get involved in situations like this.''

It shouldnt be, and if they think that it's a flaw in their training. We have police in the USA who do this job. We do not use or need the military to act as a police force in American cities.

[pros80]

The article states that

"It’s unclear whether the shooting occurred inside or outside the bar, but video of the incident was captured, according to the warrants"

It states the soldiers separated the guy from the girl.

If they chased the guy outside the bar then I would say that may be putting themselves out there too much. But if they were braking up the fight in the bar then that's normal decency. It turns into a another sad nightclub shooting.

[Easy_C]

(07-29-2016 04:38 PM)jamaicabound Wrote:  

I dont' know we can call this "white knighting'. This isn't just a couple guys who decide to get into other people's business they are soldiers trained to intervene in conflicts, heck Iraq and Afghanistan soldiers are forced to be cops and mediators more than even soldiers so I think its just second nature for them to get involved in situations like this.

Understandable, but my point is that a lot of military types have an inferiority complex that will cause them to want to jump in and show off as the hero whenever they can.

It isn't just in this area either nor is it restricted to males. In one closed officer's group we are having, I shit you not, a debate about whether it's appropriate to scold a soldier's wife for smoking while pregnant if you encounter them off duty.

You get some alphas, and then you get people who think they're Jedi Knights out to solve all the world's problems.

[TonySandos]

(07-29-2016 04:34 PM)Htownanddown Wrote:  

I know people in the military and regular citizens who would jump in to help anyone who looked like they were in need of help. It is a good thing to live in a society where people try to protect their fellow citizens from harm. Of course you never know the circumstances that led to the incident and everyone has the right to be cautious in a situation like this. However, to say that anyone who gets hurt or killed protecting a woman is putting the pussy on a pedestal or white knighting, I think is misguided.

and this is my only point. Denigrating these men for the fact that they died is idiotic. I won't argue about it.


The weak minded individuals here would undoubtedly be singing a different tune in it was some of relation to them, regardless of the circumstances. We can all play too cool online, but I don't buy it.

All the whining about feminism has really caused some to lose their common sense here.

[Sumanguru]

(07-29-2016 06:30 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  

The weak minded individuals here would undoubtedly be singing a different tune in it was some of relation to them, regardless of the circumstances. We can all play too cool online, but I don't buy it.

See, you *say* that, but some of us were born and raised in places like, say, Baltimore, and had plenty of relatives beaten/robbed/shot for doing shit they shouldn't have been doing at unholy hours of the night.

And you know what? I wouldn't expect a stranger to intervene on their behalf. This isn't to say I wanted my people to die, or I wouldn't have been appreciative for someone helping them. But *expect* that help? No. Judge bystanders poorly for not helping, especially knowing that, like this woman, my fam was up to grimy shit? Nope. Why should *two* families get cops knocking on their door with bad news, instead of just one family, because someone wanted to be an idiot criminal?

[Foolsgo1d]

I'm more surprised 2 military guys couldn't spot a dead eyed drug dealer who is most likely armed and out for blood.

Don't they train soldiers to spot that type of thing?

[TonySandos]

(07-29-2016 06:49 PM)Sumanguru Wrote:  

And you know what? I wouldn't expect a stranger to intervene on their behalf. This isn't to say I wanted my people to die, or I wouldn't have been appreciative for someone helping them. But *expect* that help? No. Judge bystanders poorly for not helping, especially knowing that, like this woman, my fam was up to grimy shit? Nope. Why should *two* families get cops knocking on their door with bad news, instead of just one family, because someone wanted to be an idiot criminal?

Fail.

Lol you guys have such a poor position that you're forced to create arguments that I didn't make. Even more ridiculous than saying I expect people to intervene and judge harshly if they don't is the fact that you're judging two people harshly for intervening.

There's been a lot of spin produced in under two pages here

[AlphaRN]

`` the fact that you're judging two people harshly for intervening. ''

The spin is on you. The position is one you simply choose to ignore because it blows your weak argument apart. Let me spell it out for you, one last time.

We are not insulting that they died, and it is not idiotic to point it out. It was the way they died was idiotic. You still fail to grasp they died for the ``honor'' of a drug-addicted thief. They died a fools death because of it. Yes, in fact, it is idiotic to give your life away to save a common street rat, someone who has probably already forgot about both of them and is already passed out in a gutter somewhere. It sucks that they died, but at the end of the day, they died for nothing. Nothing.

What ``honor'' is there in that?

If you truly believe the common bystander is going to come to your aid in the same situation, you are wrong. As a man, if you choose to fight in or around a club, no one will feel sorry for you. No one will step in and help you. Now, if you are on the ground in a bloody stump, someone might tell the guy to lay off or then come to make sure he doesnt kill you. But up to that point, they are just going to stand around and watch, and laugh, or even egg the guy on. Call us woman haters all you want, use the last resort of a losing debater and use all the name-calling and insults you want, it will not change this fact.

[Kona]

(07-29-2016 12:35 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

I'm the only PH recipient that I know of on the forum so I think I'm entitled to speak somewhat critically about the military.

Two timer here.

Regardless of anyones feelings about the military, I don't see the "white knighting" here at all.

There isn't enough information in that article to make such a judgment. It does however, say that the woman was seriously injured.

I personally would believe much that comes out of a gun wielding drug dealers mouth.

Aloha!

[Easy_C]

Exactly. It's not necessarily white knighting in every case but my experiencr has been that soldiers tend to want to charge in and be the hero, withoutn thinking about whether it's a good idea or whether it will actually help anything. Its a typical young person's mistake.

[Thersites]

This incident reminders me of a comment that GhostofJefferson made on a RoK article, to paraphrase that we live in society that punish the men that are sheepdogs. Two men that were part of group of men in that trying to stop a guy form choking a girl. A girl who was not worth the two lives lost that try to protect her. We lament that these men were white knights for intervening, but,in reality we are lament that state of women in the West World. These were men that trying to be decent human beings. Help the girl out and then go back to their beers is the most likely scenario.

Let us not misuse the term of white knighting. These men were not going to save the girl and get a fuck as the reward for saving her. White knights do good deeds for ulterior motive. Punish that behavior, let not mock men trying to good deeds n this unjust world.

[Bluto]

(07-29-2016 07:51 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

I'm more surprised 2 military guys couldn't spot a dead eyed drug dealer who is most likely armed and out for blood.

Don't they train soldiers to spot that type of thing?

The cops most likely are better at it than these soldiers to spot something like that. One was an engineering instructor and one was not specified as an MOS.

From Fox News:
"The Island Packet, citing the arrest warrants, reported that Mills was physically assaulting a woman who several patrons at the Lake Murray bar and the soldiers separated him from her. Mills then shot the soldiers with a handgun, the warrants state."

Honestly, I think that there is more to this incident than what is in the news article. If you had an incident that got so out of hand that half of the bar had to step in then there is a lot that we are missing.

[Leonard D Neubache]

I'm going to try to stick a fork in this.

When confronted with a situation like this in public the situation either warrants a full scale response or it's not your business. What I'm saying is do not involve yourself unless you are clearly legally entitled to use the full spectrum of physical violence.

Until that time comes, call the cops, position yourself and be ready, but unless you can justify cold cocking that son of a bitch in the back of the head then do not get involved. Why? Because anything less than a complete and thorough takedown risks outcomes like the one we've just seen.

"Restraining" people in a situation like this is a stupid joke, and your future will be the punch line.

If you absolutely must get involved, wait for a total and indisputable green light. My advice afterward is to walk away before the cops arrive, because if there's one thing that cops hate it's being made redundant by another alpha male.

[Sumanguru]

(07-29-2016 09:03 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  

(07-29-2016 06:49 PM)Sumanguru Wrote:  

And you know what? I wouldn't expect a stranger to intervene on their behalf. This isn't to say I wanted my people to die, or I wouldn't have been appreciative for someone helping them. But *expect* that help? No. Judge bystanders poorly for not helping, especially knowing that, like this woman, my fam was up to grimy shit? Nope. Why should *two* families get cops knocking on their door with bad news, instead of just one family, because someone wanted to be an idiot criminal?

Fail.

Lol you guys have such a poor position that you're forced to create arguments that I didn't make. Even more ridiculous than saying I expect people to intervene and judge harshly if they don't is the fact that you're judging two people harshly for intervening.

There's been a lot of spin produced in under two pages here

OK.

(07-29-2016 09:03 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  

Yes. I don't see how they did anything wrong, regardless of the outcome of their actions. There's no genuine reason for a man to be chasing a woman in the first place if it can't be explain it in passing; "she stole my money!" No matter how you paint it, the man was up to no good. That can't be argued.

See, for an individual altruistically invested in the well being of the society this is an appropriate response.

TonySandos Wrote:

Cowardice is as cowardice does. Don't worry guys. One day soon the mgtow philosophy will dominate. There won't be any police to call. Why? Because they wised up after reading a few RVF threads and realize that not only is the risk to reward ratio too high (totally beta shit), but why should they lend help to others for such little reward as police pay and pension? That's pure white knighting if I ever heard it.

That's a lot of shaming. It certainly looks like you're demanding that people intervene; at least if they're "invested in the well being of society." While I get that your ultimate point is below

TonySandos Wrote:

The issue I take with this discussion is conveying the idea of never helping strangers, man or woman, ever.

The shaming (opposing opinions are "cowardice," those who aren't aren't "invested in society,") doesn't work, as one can have legit reasons for choosing to never intervene, such as

TonySandos Wrote:

We all care about our family, but where not around them at all times.

Right. And like I said, as someone who grew up with scumbag fam in a scumbag city, I wouldn't expect anyone to help them be scumbags or look down on someone for not helping them or view it as someone not "being invested in the well being of society." You said that us viewing intervening as white knighting would change if it was our family in this woman's place, and I'm telling you that that is not the case.

[Crisp]

Let me see if I'm understanding many of the Johnny Do-nothings in this thread. Never help a woman being beaten (the woman in this story was seriously injured) because at the very least she's a skank. (that reasoning seems similar to the sjw thinking that all men are potential rapists.) Also, don't do it because anytime a male does something to aid a female it means you are a white knight. Ok got it.

What about helping a guy that's being beaten? Don't help because, well because fuck that, I ain't no homo coming to white knight a dude. How about an elderly person? Would that be ok? Because if they were any kind of decent person they wouldn't be alone and their children would have seen that they were well cared for. How about a smaller kid? I shouldn't help because I can rationalize it as he's learning a valuable life lesson to hit the gym. What about an animal being abused? For sure not a cat, because cats are for single women and faggots and I'm neither of those. Not a dog either because frankly our society values animal life too much.

Anyways, I guess one guy's white knighting is what another guy would call having a conscience.

[Leonard D Neubache]

(07-30-2016 10:07 AM)Crisp Wrote:  

Let me see if I'm understanding many of the Johnny Do-nothings in this thread. Never help a woman being beaten (the woman in this story was seriously injured) because at the very least she's a skank. (that reasoning seems similar to the sjw thinking that all men are potential rapists.) Also, don't do it because anytime a male does something to aid a female it means you are a white knight. Ok got it.

What about helping a guy that's being beaten? Don't help because, well because fuck that, I ain't no homo coming to white knight a dude. How about an elderly person? Would that be ok? Because if they were any kind of decent person they wouldn't be alone and their children would have seen that they were well cared for. How about a smaller kid? I shouldn't help because I can rationalize it as he's learning a valuable life lesson to hit the gym. What about an animal being abused? For sure not a cat, because cats are for single women and faggots and I'm neither of those. Not a dog either because frankly our society values animal life too much.

Anyways, I guess one guy's white knighting is what another guy would call having a conscience.

I hope your lessons in life don't cost you much. I really do.

I used to type like that when I was a young buck that'd never been in anything approaching a life or death situation.

Come back to us in a few years after you've saved the world.

I'll personally present you with a merit badge. Scouts honor.

[Crisp]

I'm definitely no young buck, and fortunately I haven't been in a life or death situation. But I have been in instances where yes I have been guilty of white knighting by coming to help a woman being attacked and yes I even white knighted for a dude that was a a bartender in nyc that got jumped by a guy and a couple of his friends. I　couldn't imagine just sliding down to another stool at the bar and just hoping they didn't knock my beer over.