Quote: (07-15-2016 11:14 PM)Kona Wrote:
The main point was, that there's a massive difference between a group celebrating their culture, and a group that just exists to hate other cultures.
Except we were speaking about one cop using some symbols that celebrate culture.
We were speaking about how, at the Huffington Post and on this thread, that is being spun into him hating other cultures.
I agree with your articulation of the difference.
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Skinheads are bad, but then they become ethnonationalists and they are OK???
By skinheads, I assume that you mean low-rent supremacists. I have a shaved head, but it isn't political. It's a style. I'd grow it out if it looked better that way.
Supremacists are ethnonationalists, but ethnonationalists aren't necessarily supremacists.
The difference is all the difference, and if you are worried about supremacists then keeping a firm line on the difference will help you to avoid the effects of supremacists and defend against them.
How is another discussion.
Also, white people are the least of your worries. They have no power as a political group except in the voting booth. There are no whites-only networks that aren't criminal. The organized supremacist networks that get no press are the ones that you have to worry about, and they aren't white.
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If hydrogonian or anyone else would like to hear my thoughts about native Hawaiians, whites in Hawaii or any Hawaiian sovereignty movement, feel free to start another thread. If its doubletalk free maybe I'll participate.
I'll merely read and won't try to debate you. I'll defend my position in general in this thread, but I'm not a fan of trying to convince others that their beliefs about themselves are somehow wrong. Thus, as I said, I'll just read.
But I also request that you do it here, in this thread where the relevant discussion is taking place.
It would help if you pointed out the doubletalk.
I feel that those on the other side of the argument from you are attempting to do the same thing, in sorting the doubletalk, when you argue that supremacist and nationalist are not the same thing EXCEPT when it comes to Whites.
I'd theoretically be willing to grant that you meant "except when other factors become obvious", but in the case of the cop there is no evidence that he was a supremacist but he is being painted as such anyway.
Thus, it seems to be the case that all white (German, British, Dutch, etc) ethnonationlists are being held to be supremacist according to the logic used in the dead cop example in this thread.
See the quote below.
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Supremacist and nationalist aren't the same thing, we are all smart enough to know that.
Add WHITE to nationalist and the lines get a little blurry. Don't tell me they don't.
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A white guy can easily justify tjhe two the way you did, but if you exclude me, in my mind you are the same damn thing.
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If you want to be who ever you are, own it. If you want to be a full out nazi, go for it.
You might be uncomfortable with the concept of nationalism, in general.
Nationalism is the opposite political concept of the globalism-internationalism that is so maligned on this forum.
Nationalism, by definition, excludes others as a means of national survival.
It isn't personal, and it doesn't mean that nationalists don't interact with you. I would hope for your mental and spiritual health that you also have a heritage that you feel an affinity for.
It only means that they also recognize the value of their group, and that value rests on who they are not as much as who they are.
I don't see anyone here worried about Jewish nationalism, which has been excluding everyone else for three millenia and is much more entrenched in mainstream society, and is more disciplined in their exclusion than is white nationalism. Are you worried about Jewish cops?
Whites don't even have a shared belief system and so can't be held to believe the same thing, perhaps beyond an interest in their ethnic survival, even when they are into their heritage.
On the other hand, Jewish people, by virtue of not rejecting their Jewishness, can be said to all align with a more-or-less single belief system with a singular religiously articulated goal.
Their nationalism is much more developed and thus their individual behavior is much more likely to be guided by their Jewish affinity.
No one else seems to be worried about any other nationalisms, despite their lesser marginalization in comparison with white nationalism.
What are your cultural links with the Mjolnir, the Jerusalem cross, or the iron cross?
How about the Star of David?
How about African symbols?
On what basis do you justify your inclusion to any of these ethnicities?
Why do you care only about your exclusion from Europeans ethnic groups?
Why does your exclusion mandate that a group is supremacist and not nationalist? Does this same exclusion=supremacist logic apply across other groups?
Political exclusion is merely what nationalism looks like for all people. Hence, why I say that you might have an issue with the concept of nationalism.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that anyone who can truly express the thought patterns and culture of a group should be included. I know many mixed race American individuals who are "white" in that respect and I would not exclude them.
I also know many individuals of a singular racial type that are also compatible. I would not necessarily exclude them, but they all invariably have their own ethnic affinity to attend to.
However, this inclusion becomes problematic especially as the affinity group becomes more specific.
To illustrate, I was raised by people of a specific ethnic group on both sides of my family. I've never seen anyone outside of the ethnic group mirror well-enough our culture because they simply do not think in the same manner. Thus, how can an outsider join without redefining the group and making it more generic than what it is?
Outsiders can be on the periphery, but they should not be allowed to redefine the group according to their limits on expressing themselves as a member. Doing so is merely a slower road to globalism.
I can't be Mestizo, Somalian, Ashkenazi, nor Hawaiian.
I feel as if we need a system that engenders mutual respect and peace without the need for group eradication; this holds across all groups.
There is no need to respond, Kona (or please do if you would like to). We can agree to disagree. This is the last of my points to be made, and I certainly don't want you to feel harassed or ganged up on in this conversation. I know how that feels. I can respect our differences on the matter.
Have a nice weekend.