[Going strong]

So, MSM once again is attacking D. Trump on the issue of water-boarding of terrorists (in order to save lives, of course)... (see thread-48360...pid1305793 ).

Well, I seize the occasion to give some fresh (no pun intended) info on the world's currently most-famous detained terrorist: Salah Abdeslam, the surviving mass murderer of last year Bataclan terror attacks...

This murderous terrorist (side note: having entered EU with the flow of so-called refugees) has not been water-boarded, neither in Belgium nor in France . Actually, Belgian policemen were shocked that a Belgian judge only permitted them to interrogate Abdeslam for... 1 hour, after his arrest... just one hour of questioning, with no violence at all involved, not even a slap, "because he seemed very tired".

http://www.politico.eu/article/belgium-t...r-attacks/

"Despite the discovery of detonators, weapons, and Abdeslam’s fingerprints in a safe house days earlier and growing evidence that the Brussels terror network was stronger than previously understood, law enforcement officials only briefly questioned Abdeslam because he was still recovering from surgery after being shot in the leg during his apprehension, according to a senior Belgian security official, who asked for anonymity to speak about the investigation.

“He seemed very tired and he had been operated on the day before,” the official said, adding that law enforcement officials did not question him again before Tuesday.

“They were not thinking about the possibilities of what happened on Tuesday morning,” said a second source with knowledge of the process."

As a result, one day later, Belgium suffered a bloody terrorist attack on its airport, carried out by the friends of Abdeslam: so, undoubtedly, water-boarding Abdeslam would have saved many, many Belgian lives, just one day later...

And today, Abdeslam is making a mockery of French justice system. Not only is he treated as a rock star by other detainees in his prison, but Abdeslam is also toying with French investigators and judges... every time he's bored and feels like getting a free ride to Paris, he says that he will talk, then is brought to a judge, and, like today, at the last moment says that he won't talk, after all, having just changed his mind... He's poking fun at French policemen and judges!

http://www.ouest-france.fr/faits-divers/...is-4239776


So anyway, today, in all French media, we saw Abdeslam's lawyer arrogantly demanding that his "client" be put off CCTV surveillance. Yes, Abdeslam is actually on the offensive, threatening suits against France and the EU because there is a security-camera on the wall of his cell, and he feels "intimidated and harassed"... is this a joke?? have we become so weak?

I mean, not only this mass murderer and terrorist is not water-boarded and therefore doesn't reveal information, but he's actually painting himself as the real victim here!

Seriously, Western countries have become so weak and P-C, we won't even water-board the "most precious catch" terrorist of the World, we won't even rough him up, we give him a comfy individual cell, we let him sleep after just 1 hour of (soft) interrogation, and now we let his lawyer threaten us with lawsuits for harassment!

So, well, quoting D. Trump (in his tweet from yesterday), I'm asking:
"When will we get tough, smart and vigilant?" with terrorists, and notably, when will we start to seriously interrogate them, when they are caught?

Lives of hundreds of innocent people can be saved, with just a few minutes of interrogation (using interrogation technique that does not leave any permanent damage), so let's do it and show the world that we as Western society are not weak anymore!

[rotekz]

They should harass his testicles with a taser.

[Horus]

The experience of being waterboarded is extremely traumatic. Those subjected to this torture actually think they are going to die. As such, it's a form of punishment before someone has been proven guilty. And we all believe in innocent before proven guilty right?

But what about the poor people killed in the Bataclan centre and in Brussels? They were innocent too right? So why shouldn't the people who killed them be subjected to enhanced interrogation measures?

Well, it's important to follow the rule of law and subject all suspects to equal rights under the justice system.............

I can't even continue my trolling attempt. I would pay money to do this to this inbred son of a bitch.

[Mike5055]

Yeah, I'm all for innocent until proven guilty. If you pick some random guy up off the street, say he committed a crime, and then water board him, that's wrong.

This guy is an all but confirmed mass-murdering terrorist. Cut him to pieces slowly while wareeboarding him. They should go medieval on him.

[Horus]

When the shit hits the fan, waterboarding is the least of our worries. History shows that Europeans are an incredibly open, accepting, tolerant race of people..... until the line is crossed. If there is one thing that Europeans are historically really good at doing, it's killing people that try to mess with them. They kicked the Moors out of Spain. They stopped the Turks in Vienna. They repelled countless attacks, and even counter-attacked, and the Renaissance and the Enlightenment (the resurrection of ancient Western ideals) was the result. I have to believe that European men, at some point in the short future, still have the balls to not only waterboard these savages, but take back their cities. And when I say "take back their cities," I mean it as a euphemistic term - interpret it as you will.

[cubanlinx]

When I read the title, I thought he claimed harassment because the investigators took his toys from him.
If you are in Europe, please plant the seed of mutiny in every person you meet. There will be a point when people refuse to take it lying down. Even now I don't think much of them except for a few incredibly dense fuckers and some traitorous leftists are enamored of "diversity".
Your elites don't like Islam, or Christianity or organized religion of any kind. They want docile drones, and this is why they let Arabs and the rest continue their savagery, to the tune of "let you and them fight". Then they get diminished populations of Europeans and whoever else.
An unerring push to send all of them back should be the death knell for these faithless policies.
So be wary, your governments will try to stop you at every turn. Stay strong.

[Going strong]

(05-20-2016 08:12 AM)Mike5055 Wrote:  

Yeah, I'm all for innocent until proven guilty. If you pick some random guy up off the street, say he committed a crime, and then water board him, that's wrong.

This guy is an all but confirmed mass-murdering terrorist.

^ This exactly: nobody wants to water-board simple suspects of "common" crimes, but in the case of such a high-profile, extremely murderous terrorist having been part and leader of a massive terrorist act, then water-boarding is morally justified, and necessary from an intel-gathering point of view.

Note: please do not describe (graphically) what you would like to do to this Abdeslam murderer, I don't think the forum moderators appreciate very graphic details of gory retaliation (even when retaliation is well-deserved)...

Anyway, about the Bataclan attacks, do you remember the Eagles of Metal, the US rock band?

Well, they have been banned from a very famous French rock convention! Motive: the lead singer had the nerve to say a couple of un-PC words about the terrorists that he saw (he said something tantamount to: "they were looking at me, a tall bragging American, with dark, jealous eyes, I thought it was an Arab thing or something")

I mean, this American singer escaped from a massive terrorist blood-bath, and you expect him to remain P-C at all times, after that?? give him some slack, please!

[Foolsgo1d]

Waterboarding?

How amateurish.

Over hundreds of years Europeans developed a means to get information out of people or simply to watch their enemies and people they disliked get a very painful end.

Such an example;



Wiki

[cubanlinx]

(05-20-2016 12:19 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

Waterboarding?

How amateurish.

Over hundreds of years Europeans developed a means to get information out of people or simply to watch their enemies and people they disliked get a very painful end.

Such an example;



Wiki

This was the preferred method before Cryotherapy, I believe.

Would it still be steak if you ate it? I can see myself doing this to someone I had a longstanding beef with.
But then they'd be all cut up about it.

[HonantheBarbarian]

Get him wet and put some crossed jumper cables on his cowardly ass.

[Going strong]

Update:

The Bataclan terrorist has still not given a single name or useful data . He keeps mocking, taunting the investigators, and has pressed charges against his jailers, occasionally winning some easing of his -already too soft- detention specifics.

Now, we have learned today that the surviving Moroccan terrorist from Spain, the one who got wounded in the Alcanar house that they blew up (while making a bomb), also refuses to talk: "he doesn't wish to talk to investigators"!

Chemlal doesn't wish to talk to investigators!! God, the West is a big sissy joke. "top terrorist caught alive, doesn't wish to talk to investigators"

Give him to me half a day, or to one of my EE friends for just one hour, and we would learn everything, everything, and save lives in the process.

[Ocelot]

(08-19-2017 04:15 PM)Going strong Wrote:  

Update:

The Bataclan terrorist has still not given a single name or useful data . He keeps mocking, taunting the investigators, and has pressed charges against his jailers, occasionally winning some easing of his -already too soft- detention specifics.

They need this guy:

[Parzival]

How much information did they gain in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib? How reliable the information you gain by specific question methods? I can understand the urge to harm this scum, I'm all with you. Still when we get carried away by our emotions and our desire for revenge we lose the bigger picture. We can for sure questions the actual methods in use, also ask what else can we use. But we should also look at specific methods that had be in use and how much benefit we got out of this.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

Retarded and treasonous. They'd treat me worse if I crossed the street on a red light or mislicked a button in any government form.

[redpillage]

(08-20-2017 06:24 AM)Parzival Wrote:  

How much information did they gain in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib? How reliable the information you gain by specific question methods? I can understand the urge to harm this scum, I'm all with you. Still when we get carried away by our emotions and our desire for revenge we lose the bigger picture. We can for sure questions the actual methods in use, also ask what else can we use. But we should also look at specific methods that had be in use and how much benefit we got out of this.

I frankly do not know how much reliable information was extracted in Guantanamo and various black sites around the world. My guess would be that slowly slicing someone into small pieces would produce something to work with. Too brutal? Well, watch a few videos of ISIS burning young slave girls - alive. If that doesn't convince you then step aside and let someone take over who's willing to do what it takes to protect his tribe. Politely asking them clearly is not going to get you far with a person who's willing to die for his cause.

Now you asked what does work and I will tell you. Identify his family and his friends, kill anyone three steps removed or less, e.g. father, mother, brother, sister, uncle, cousin. Kill anyone else who actively aided their cause. Effectively requisition all property and financial assets held by anyone who protected the terrorists or is proven to have failed to report their activities.

That is what Russians do with Chechen terrorists and it has vastly reduced the number of attacks in what is the biggest nation on earth composed of literally hundreds of diverse ethnic groups. Think about that for a second.

Of course this won't happen as the sheeple wouldn't accept it. Give it 10 or 15 more years when Paris, Berlin, London have either been reduced to rubble or are declaring itself sovereign territory of the new European caliphate. Maybe then Europeans are willing to do what it takes, and I'm not even sure about that. Of course by then it'll be too late. The only remaining option then will be to drop a few neutron or salted bombs, most likely chemical or biological weapons, and start over once the dust settles. I don't plan to be around that long.

[John Michael Kane]

We need jihadi heads on a stake by the city gates as a warning. The only thing these savages understand is brass balls that don't fuck around.

[redpillage]

(08-20-2017 08:12 AM)John Michael Kane Wrote:  

We need jihadi heads on a stake by the city gates as a warning. The only thing these savages understand is brass balls that don't fuck around.

Exactly, weakness only infuriates their hate and determination even more.

[Parzival]

I don't see weakens to analyse what methods work and what not. Just a saving of resources. I prefer a cold and analytical approach. When it means to wipe out a complete village I have no issues with that. But I don't see the point to torture people just to be badass when there is no gain of this.

[redpillage]

(08-20-2017 11:25 AM)Parzival Wrote:  

I don't see weakens to analyse what methods work and what not. Just a saving of resources. I prefer a cold and analytical approach. When it means to wipe out a complete village I have no issues with that. But I don't see the point to torture people just to be badass when there is no gain of this.

You don't understand the point because you still do not comprehend the Islamic mindset. They will never be impressed or swayed by logic, only by fear due to an overwhelming response.

[QuietDog]

I agree with Parzival I don't think it is weak at all to take the moral high ground. In fact I think its weak to give in to our base desires to want to inflict as much pain on these people as possible instead of pursuing simple justice. I'm all for the death penalty for these monstrous animals but I don't want us to sink to their level.

And losing the moral high ground can harm your efforts in the long run as well, see this recent post by VoxDay:
http://voxday.blogspot.ca/2017/08/three-and-three.html

Quote:

This leads to the central dilemma of Fourth Generation war: what works for you on the physical (and sometimes mental) level often works against you at the moral level. It is therefore very easy to win all the tactical engagements in a Fourth Generation conflict yet still lose the war. To the degree you win at the physical level by utilizing firepower that causes casualties and property damage to the local population, every physical victory may move you closer to moral defeat, and the moral level is decisive.

Some examples from the American experience in Iraq help illustrate the contradiction between the physical and moral levels:

The U. S. Army conducted many raids on civilian homes in areas it occupied. In these raids, the troops physically dominated the civilians. Mentally, they terrified them. But at the moral level, breaking into private homes in the middle of the night, terrifying women and children, and sometimes treating detainees in ways that publicly humiliated them (like stepping on their heads) worked powerfully against the Americans. An enraged population responded by providing the Iraqi resistance with more support at each level of war, physical, mental, and moral.

At Baghdad’s Abu Ghraib prison, MPs and interrogators dominated prisoners physically and mentally – as too many photographs attest. But when that domination was publicly exposed, the United States suffered an enormous defeat at the moral level. Some American commanders recognized this when they referred to the soldiers responsible for the abuse as, “the jerks who lost us the war.”

The horrific brutality carried out by ISIS is one of the main reasons they are so despised around the world.

And considering that as a means for obtaining information its been proven to often be ineffective and unreliable, I believe its detrimental in the long run. Many military leaders are against it, including Defense Secretary Mattis. Some good reading on the subject here:
https://www.justsecurity.org/18207/tortu...ly-costly/
https://journalistsresource.org/studies/...ch-says-no

And for those who say waterboarding isn't torture just an "enhanced interrogation method" you should do some more reading on the subject. CIA officers who are subjected to it as a part of their training last an average of only 14 seconds before caving. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed lasted around 2 minutes and this was considered especially impressive. If 2 minutes is the outer limit for what a human can bear then yeah I consider that to be torture. Best description I've read for why its horrible is from some nut who subjected himself to it to see what it was like:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/show...p?t=448717

Quote:

Now, those of you who know me will know that I am both enamored of my own toughness and prone to hyperbole. The former, I feel that I am justifiably proud of. The latter may be a truth in many cases, but this is the simple fact:

It took me ten minutes to recover my senses once I tried this. I was shuddering in a corner, convinced I narrowly escaped killing myself.

Here's what happened:

The water fills the hole in the saran wrap so that there is either water or vaccum in your mouth. The water pours into your sinuses and throat. You struggle to expel water periodically by building enough pressure in your lungs. With the saran wrap though each time I expelled water, I was able to draw in less air. Finally the lungs can no longer expel water and you begin to draw it up into your respiratory tract.

It seems that there is a point that is hardwired in us. When we draw water into our respiratory tract to this point we are no longer in control. All hell breaks loose. Instinct tells us we are dying.

I have never been more panicked in my whole life. Once your lungs are empty and collapsed and they start to draw fluid it is simply all over. You [b]know[b] you are dead and it's too late. Involuntary and total panic.

There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. It would be like telling you not to blink while I stuck a hot needle in your eye.

At the time my lungs emptied and I began to draw water, I would have sold my children to escape. There was no choice, or chance, and willpower was not involved.

I never felt anything like it, and this was self-inflicted with a watering can, where I was in total control and never in any danger.

And I understood.

Waterboarding gets you to the point where you draw water up your respiratory tract triggering the drowning reflex. Once that happens, it's all over. No question.

Some may go easy without a rag, some may need a rag, some may need saran wrap.

Once you are there it's all over.

I didn't allow anybody else to try it on me. Inconceivable. I know I only got the barest taste of what it's about since I was in control, and not restrained and controlling the flow of water.

But there's no chance. No chance at all.

So, is it torture?

I'll put it this way. If I had the choice of being waterboarded by a third party or having my fingers smashed one at a time by a sledgehammer, I'd take the fingers, no question.

It's horrible, terrible, inhuman torture. I can hardly imagine worse. I'd prefer permanent damage and disability to experiencing it again. I'd give up anything, say anything, do anything.

The Spanish Inquisition knew this. It was one of their favorite methods.

[Going strong]

There would be no need to waterboard these scum, low-life Maghrebi virgin terrorists. Half an hour of energetic interrogation by a right-wing cop, with a few slaps and a couple of kicks to the arse or ribs, and that would be it, they would talk.

Those terrorists are very soft. They are from Maghreb, living in Spain: very soft. Proof is, when they are caught, they die quickly, like defenseless puppies, shot by common policemen, without wounding any policeman back. Like the Moroccan in Finland yesterday, he only stabbed girls and pregnant women, he couldn't overcome a Western man.

IS terrorists might need waterboarding to crack them. But these Maghrebi settled in Europe, lol, I would crack them, real bad, in half a day (and they wouldn't lie, once someone is broken, he doesn't lie anymore), and my EE friends would terrorize them and break them in one hour, without waterboarding, just threatening and slapping them around and doing some EE, "balkanic" stuff.
Absolute shame that Western governments protect these incarcerated terrorists, for dubious (and actually, very suspicious) reasons...

[BortimusPrime]

(05-20-2016 07:56 AM)rotekz Wrote:  

They should harass his testicles with a taser.

Or a doberman.

[Samseau]

(08-20-2017 06:24 AM)Parzival Wrote:  

How much information did they gain in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib? How reliable the information you gain by specific question methods? I can understand the urge to harm this scum, I'm all with you. Still when we get carried away by our emotions and our desire for revenge we lose the bigger picture. We can for sure questions the actual methods in use, also ask what else can we use. But we should also look at specific methods that had be in use and how much benefit we got out of this.

What does efficiency have to do with it?

Even if we only get a small bit of info, torturing these scumbags is totally worth it.

[WilliamDoor]

While I do not say that pain is not a good tool, there is a man who has said other ways exist:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/pentag...le/2613076

Quote:

Defense Secretary James Mattis, who once told President Trump he found beer and cigarettes more useful in interrogation than waterboarding, has not changed his views on torture, the Pentagon said Thursday.

Then again...

Quote:

And even Mattis' answer came with a caveat. He specified the Army Field Manual should be used for all military interrogations, leaving the door open a crack to a separate standard for the CIA.

[Vacancier Permanent]

I agree that with these animals, logic and common sense is out of the question and we need to show them that we can be tough even 10X tougher than these cowards can imagine. One method of torture and getting info from these animals would be to do as Alexander The Great did to his prisoners and enemies:

Strip them naked, cover their body with honey, especially around the genitals, heart and face and then tie them outside to a tree. Let the vultures, ants and scavengers eat them slowly in the most horrifically painful way. From reading Alexander The Great's books, some of these guys remained alive for up to 2 to 4 weeks of incredible pain that after the 2-3 weeks mark, they were providing all the info they needed accurately.


The Romans also had a unique yet very powerful and efficient way of getting all the info they wanted from their captives in an entertaining way. They'd threw them out in the Coliseum to fight bears, lions and tigers.

Death penalty, guillotine, hanging and shooting these animals is very soft and easy way out. No wonder they are not deterred from committing those acts of horrific barbary as they know they don't risk anything and once caught, they also know that we are soft and thus won't release any info. Let them feel the pain that they've inflicted to complete innocent and helpless people. Time to employ a different strategy against these sub human animals!