[johnbozzz]

I was wondering if this realization had hit anyone else on this forum. I grew up in an upper middle class household, where my mom was a homemaker and my dad was a college professor (he also wrote and gave lectures on the side). Anyway, I'm from Los Angeles, originally, and the quality of public schools in the area is so poor, that I attended private school from K-high school. However, these private school were subpar at best and I went through my school years doing hours of busy work which served zero purpose. In retrospect, I felt like I got the short end of the stick. I self-studied for the SAT, so I know I'm not a complete idiot( I score 2240).
Now that I'm older (24) I am unable to maintain a conversation about politics and economics, even science, with some of my coworkers. Really, these dudes could run a few laps around me with their knowledge. I really do chalk it up to a superior education as younger kids. They have a foundation I certainly never had (my dad is a music professor, so it's a bit different).
This is really just a useless thread to seem if anyone else has realized the same thing about themselves and how they dealt with it.

[Anabasis to Desta]

[R_Niko]

My education was utter shit. I grew up lower middle class, my dad was a high school dropout, I went to public schools in the 80s and 90s (not as bad as today), had shitty babysitters as a kid. I still found my way into a decent university and did reasonably well.

But yeah, almost everyone I know that was educated in North America post 1970s is a fuckin retard compared to anyone that wasn't. The flipside is that many jobs today value conformity over excellence, so as long as being mediocre allows you to fit in, you should be fine.

[Merenguero]

(04-16-2016 05:48 PM)R_Niko Wrote:  

But yeah, almost everyone I know that was educated in North America post 1970s is a fuckin retard compared to anyone that wasn't.

I'm guessing that you don't know many people from Latin America, particularly people from places other than Cuba, Argentina, and Puerto Rico.

[Alsos]

You're certainly not alone in thinking that way. I read this book based on a recommendation on the Forum, and found it captured my own public schooling experience while neatly confirming my biases on the topic. So I'll happily pass it on:

Weapons of Mass Instruction: A Schoolteacher's Journey Through the Dark World of Compulsory Schooling
by John Taylor Gatto -- Link: http://amzn.com/0865716692

If public schools seem like prisons where kids are warehoused for thirteen years, and that the goal of K-12 seems to be "leveling" its charges to a very low degree of independent cognitive skill and a very high degree of insecurity and obedience, well...

[johnbozzz]

So you think this can be applied to a lot of private school, too? Is it a similar model?

[Que enspastic]

I was taught to read at 3 years of age and went to a top academic school and university. At age 5 I used to think it was weird that kids at school needed their parents to read to them - why didn't they just read by themselves? At dinner I was expected to discuss political and philosophical ideas, leaders and events with my parents and their friends who were academics and top business people - this was from the age of at least 13/14 years old. I was given books as presents and had access to my parents large library of reading material.

I was expected to win academic prizes at school - that was seen as normal. And it was seen as cool to win because people wanted to scoop up those prizes at the end of year award ceremony held in a big music auditorium. At university my peers were all extremely smart and competitive and intellectually curious about almost everything. They all took on prestigious jobs after graduating.

I never really considered any of this as out of the ordinary until I joined the workforce around age 23/24. I had grown up with the quote "small minds talk about people, greater minds talk about events, and the best minds talk about ideas". Suddenly everyone seemed to be in the first category and I found it really difficult to join in on the chat as I wasn't used to conversations on this level. I'd never watched reality TV or soaps and felt completely stumped - why is any of this even of interest to anyone ?

I came across adults who couldn't spell and who had very limited understanding of world geography, history, politics and economics. They didn't know how the political system operated in their own country (i.e. how voting works, separation of powers etc), or how to evaluate a company's value on the stock market or just basic one liners like "what was the Cold War about", "what is compound interest", "what is the difference between a noun, a verb and an adjective". Some of them had read barely 15-20 books in their entire lifetimes.

I had to come to terms with the idea that this new reality was more normal than what I had grown up thinking as normal. Felt like stepping into some parallel bizarro universe.

[scotian]

By Canadian standards, yes. Alberta has some of the best public schools in the world (school boards from all over come there to study them) and students from there consistently score in the top three in international testing for science and math. All of that oil money buys great schools and well paid teachers. On the east coast though where the population is lower and incomes way less, the public education system isn't nearly as good and drop out rates are higher, which is why you'll see so many of us blue collar east coast meat heads out in the oil patch.

[johnbozzz]

What were the girls like in you high school and the other women in your area? Sadly, every girl I knew from school has grown into a hookup happy slut.

[Alsos]

(04-16-2016 06:44 PM)johnbozzz Wrote:  

So you think this can be applied to a lot of private school, too? Is it a similar model?

I think he would say yes - that most private and church schools absorbed the same "Prussian model" for public schooling as the public schools: regimentation of time, separation by age cohort rather than proficiency, narrowing the scope and depth of curricula to what is "needed" or "practical", instilling a sense of social subordination of the individual and strict obedience to authority, inculcating an identification with the community and the state and a uniform vision of both, etc.

The book has been out 2-3 years, and most of the material seems to have been written in the 2002-2008 period, so it predates the rise of the SJW, BLM, Occupy, and snowflake-student movements. Yet you can plainly see how the various stages of evolution of mandatory/public schooling he describes lead directly to the mindset on which those movements operate - in particular the profound inability to think critically or independently, a shortcoming Gatto claims is deliberately created. This makes these movements possible by elevating subjectivism and relativism over objective and empirical truth and by encouraging delusional magical thinking unmoored from reality. No properly educated adult could claim that "all sex is rape", or "only white people can be racist", or "society should pay back the half-mil in student loans for my Wymyn's Studies doctorate, not me", or "anything that I don't like is hate speech and therefore not free speech". But none of the people involved are even remotely properly educated.

[Hades]

A lot of it is interest. I could give a shit less about the particulars of politics. Very few political decisions affect me directly. FATCA, taxes, gun laws, and the fines on the uninsured (thanks, Obama) are about all I can come up with right now.

Political nerds can be a huge pain in the ass. Their nigh-autistic focus on nuance blinds them to basic and easily observable heuristics, like the fact that policy ranks very low on a sliding scale of what's important in getting elected.

All you need to make an econ guy look stupid is ask him why his opinion matters if he's worth less than a month's salary. If he quibbles or whines tell him that if he believes in his system so much, why doesn't he take out a loan and profit from the difference?

That all being said you can get a perfectly fine education by yourself. You just have to do some reading.

[RatInTheWoods]

Absolutely. The education system is just a glorified experiment in social engineering and child minding gone very very wrong.

[RoastBeefCurtains4Me]

The actual schools I went to were mediocre when I was young. I returned to grad school in my 30s and got a masters from a high ranking engineering school.

My knowledge of facts and information was very good.

However, I wasn't taught how to excel in the work world as an adult, or how to compensate for my introverted egg head personality. Worst still I was taught a bunch of blue pill thinking. This was the conventional wisdom at the time, so I can't blame my family and society much.

Given all of this, do I feel like my education gave me the knowledge and skills to truly succeed in life? Absolutely not. I've made up for it in various ways, but how I wish I'd been taught better in my youth.

[Alsos]

(04-16-2016 07:34 PM)Hades Wrote:  

A lot of it is interest....

That all being said you can get a perfectly fine education by yourself. You just have to do some reading.

True.

It's a pity that so many people come away from traditional K-12 with a dislike or even hatred of learning. A lot of the flaws in public education can be addressed by pursuing your own intellectual or hands-on interests, but anything that smacks of "learning" is avoided like the plague because one is "done with all that" at graduation.

Even those who decry the state of education seem to buy into this, however unwittingly. They'll piss and moan about how educated someone like Jefferson or Hamilton was at twelve and "oh isn't it terrible that our modern education system doesn't teach kids as well today?", as if K-12 is the only context for basic learning and that these guys didn't actually do a lot of the learning on their own. It's like it never occurred to them that all of the Western Canon is available for free on the internet, and can be read and digested at any time in one's life. Like pretty much any learning (allowing for things like foreign languages, which are apparently easier to learn while young). But it requires a mindset that values self-education and doesn't shy away from the work involved.

[Anabasis to Desta]

I don't think it matters too much.

A great foundation helps but in the end ... especially with the dawn of the internet, information has become cheap and almost worthless. Back in the day, worldliness and a strong educational background meant a lot because it gave better educated people an informational advantage.

Today, all you need to access the information an Econ Professor at Harvard has is a laptop and internet connection. Lifting advice formerly only accessible to Olympic athletes is common knowledge now ... a click of a button away.

I went to the second best private school in my country and learned a lot of shit i will never use. I spend 2-3 hours a day reading stuff that will never benefit me beyond semi-quenching my thirst for knowledge. Left high-school well read & erudite but skinny, unable to get laid or be able to properly manage money.

Went to college and met guys who couldn't place Germany on a map or tell you about the Meiji Restoration. But these guys has social acumen and actual real life skills like being able to fix their own cars, save money and pull bitches.

I respect a poorly educated guy who makes 250 k a year running his own plumbing business than i do some aspie scholar who despite his PhD can't even pull 45k.

If you're really interested in these topics all you need to do is read. Tangible life changes like making money, learning BJJ, getting jacked, mastering an instument etc ... however are hard.

[Leonard D Neubache]

I was a smart kid who scored progressively lower and lower due to my sheer boredom with a curriculum that was largely of no value (seriously, I have to learn how to make a clay flower vase? In tenth grade?).

This was one of the better public schools in the state. I shudder to think what the others were like.

The schools of my age were factory assembly lines operated for the purpose of turning out obedient drones with basic reading, writing and mathematical skills (and I do mean basic).

The schools of today are little more than child care providers and work-for-the-dole centres for union teachers that would be unemployable in the private sector.

[PABeaulieu]

I think my education sucked, too.

I completed a degree in Education (I worked as a High School Teacher from 1994 to 2006), and you can add a University Certificate in Management, plus a College Diploma in Computing, and to me, all of this is not worth much, but it could have been worse with a University Degree in Anthropology, Philosophy or Sociology...

What really saved my ass are those Encyclopaedias my father bought while I was still a little baby. I used them for years to prepare my homework but I also read a lot and listened to many educational TV programs and radio shows. Those are the real foundations of my knowledge, not what I learned in school.

Nowadays, we have access to Internet, a wonderful tool, but a tool that is definitely not properly used by millions of stupid people who are using it to post selfies and share crappy "news" about celebrities.

[Sourcecode]

I don't care how smart you are, if you can do the job.
I look down on no man for not being as intellectual or knowledgeable than me.

I have a manager that use to work for me. I always thought he was a little slow when it came to intellectual task. But I could leave the shop and know everything would look perfect when I carne back.

One day I finally talked to him. I learned that he can barely read and his wife reads him all his papers and helps him study for his promotion exams.

I have other workers with college degrees that can't turn on a generator.

I have two degrees and neither are in STEM.
I don't believe I'm anywhere near the top of the list when it comes to education.
But I'm far more successful with what I've learned dealing with people.

[LeeEnfield303]

No.

[Laurifer]

Yeah, the state I grew up in was consistently 49th in the nation for education... Only Mississippi was worse. I can't really speak to what a good or bad education looks like since all I have is my own experience, but I still think even if you are educated in a shitty system, if you have an intellect, then it won't matter.

I've always had a lot of intellectual curiosities, more than the average teenager, but also felt I was an average student. I think what really boosted my confidence in school and helped me excel was that I did well enough in placement tests in junior college that I got a scholarship for my first two years and was in the honors program, and with the momentum from that I eventually went on to graduate from a four year w/ honors. Now if only I had majored in STEM...

I'm now attempting to go back to get my masters in a business discipline, and looking forward to it.

[R_Niko]

(04-16-2016 05:50 PM)Merenguero Wrote:  

(04-16-2016 05:48 PM)R_Niko Wrote:  

But yeah, almost everyone I know that was educated in North America post 1970s is a fuckin retard compared to anyone that wasn't.

I'm guessing that you don't know many people from Latin America, particularly people from places other than Cuba, Argentina, and Puerto Rico.

Sorry, by North America I meant Canada/US/Mexico. Please enlighten me as to how Cuba, Argentina, and Puerto Rico factor in? I'd imagine the first two may have better public education than we have here..

[Walker]

My education gave me a quick mind, a great variety of practical facts and physical procedures, and a good working knowledge of how to conduct myself in conversation. I'm quite happy with it.

Health issues stemming from a terrible processed sugary diet and a moldy room did far more to hold me back at a young age than any educational issues did.

[Tytalus]

I moved around all over. For middle school I got put in an excellent private school, but my parents couldn't afford it long term. 9 out of the 10 guys I've stayed in contact with from that school have better higher paying jobs than I do.

I was very poorly served in public school despite it being an excellent one in the city.... I was so bright I didn't have to work very hard to get an A. This meant university was a huge shock for me and I had to get counseling to figure out why I couldn't work hard. Part of it was that I worked so little in high school was that I thought hard work work was for the stupid kids.

[Disco_Volante]

You either have the personal drive to learn on your own, or you don't. I hate the idea pushed by liberals that you need to be 'encouraged' to learn every little fucking thing. If you weren't naturally curious about the world or economic systems or a trade, it's not your teachers or your parents' fault. That's how liberals explain girls sucking at math and musicianship. 'Girls aren't encouraged enough!'.

I was always interested in finance, and macro economics even as a teenager, So I'd follow the market in my free time. You have to connect the dots yourself and make your own decisions. Most kids let their teachers decide and steer them towards whatever career type. These are the types of kids who do great in school but ultimately end up wage workers. Following instruction is all they know how to do.

Most teachers don't know shit about the real world anyways. Observing human behavior on your own is the best way to learn. The world changes so rapidly nowadays, I doubt your French teacher could comprehend your visit to Paris 10 years later might result in Jihadist enrichment.

[hydrogonian]

How you rank on the educations scale is generally relative.

The educational foundation, in secondary school, is important (and how you do in secondary school generally depends on your primary schooling but also natural IQ).

Meaning, I wouldn't assume that two Harvard grads are similarly educated if one attended a top prep school and the other was an admission for balance in that he/she was admitted from Cornfield HS or MLK HS. Similarly, I wouldn't assume that a sports admission is similarly educated.

By "educated", I'm not speaking of math skill or a demonstration of high verbal IQ. I'm speaking about being educated in the 'modern classical' sense of having a second language, having a good handle on European and American history, and having respectable knowledge of Literature (and generally the resultant vocabulary to match). That's the base. Anyone who has these things to an Ivy League proficiency (I don't) can be claim to be "educated" to a world class level in my opinion.

In my experience, most everyone who didn't attend a top 25 or so University is lesser educated (for reference I did not) relative to those who did, especially compared to those who came out of prep school. This tends to be apparent when being around them for a period of time. That's only my personal observation. This does not imply an IQ difference, only an education difference. The more that you make up the gap even on your own, the more educated that you are. Though, it likely would be impossible to seamlessly make up that gap.

Significant knowledge of science, to include economics if that is your concentration, tends to come in graduate school when you learn how to read and document research to a graduate school standard. Science education is an advantage, and I do think that it broadens one's cognition to a similar extent as any of the classical subjects without it being education that is as readily demonstrated in mixed company as the classical subjects. Also, when you learn how to interpret and "do" science you have grasped the most important part and so the subject matter itself is less important in terms of how "educated" you are. It's the ability to read, interpret, and document science that matters most. I'd imagine that higher level math education might be similarly cognition brightening, but I'm average at math and so I couldn't comment.

In the end, you are poorly or better educated compared to the people that you are around. I feel like short bus Willy next to some people and pretentious around others. The same will likely be true for anyone posting on this forum.

I'd venture that the best way to improve how educated you feel is to read a lot. Today, you can easily search out and read every piece of good and bad literature there is. My second recommendation would be to get a science degree in any discipline with a decent amount of good science supporting it, for example excluding psychology and sociology. Other people with experiences in other fields can chime in to the educational value of their schooling.

And none of this has anything to do with making money.