[WestIndianArchie]

I thought this was gonna be about joshing each other. That's what guys do to establish the pecking order within the group.

If that's your friend, the dude that has your back when chips are down, you have to accept him as he is.

I wouldn't drop him either.

At the same time, if you're in the game, and you're changing - then it's time for you to meet some other like minded guys.

One of the great things about game is that you're purposefully expanding your social circle, and realizing that you can have lots of friends.

WIA

[Deepdiver]

In today's always-on social media world the old saw is more true than ever:

"Wolves Pack, Turkeys Flock and Eagles hunt alone".

Nightlife escapades posted to people's random facebook or instagram accounts can often be unflattering if not doxxing in outcome.

I only like to connect and have sex with extremely attractive women who love 1 on 1 sex with men, polyams do not work for me. I thrive on privacy.

The only friends I have ever had were either in the Military or females I was sleeping with in a LTR 1 yr plus except for a few wingmen over the years.

To test other men for wingman potential say nothing but observe.

Introduce him in a positive and flattering way to other women at a bar, club or especially at black tie events, upscale wine tastings etc.

Observe.

Does he say something equally flattering about you - or - does he say something snarky and sheepdog these ladies and cut them off from other men (wolves) and especially you by giving you his back and ignoring you while he tries to run cut from the herd game.

This guy considers you his competition and is threatened and no friend nor a wingman.

I have always thrown new women at other men around me to test the men and the women. The women interested in you will either be pissed at your asshole game (a good thing) or figure out how to get away from the wolves and make it back to the eagle (you).

In my world the more I ignore the most attractive women the more intrigued they become if at all attracted. To the point of even bluntly asking you out or why you disappeared on them or "why are you ignoring me" - once they hit that level of sexual tension - I become blatant and say you know I will be home after my workout at 8PM tomorrow why don't you stop by for drinks. A woman who comes over to a man's place after 8PM for drinks knows the score - isolate, escalate, rinse and repeat.

LOL I was once in a high-end restaurant/club and was talking with a male acquaintance and a hot Jewish chick.

I excused myself and went to the men's room. When I got back I asked her to dance and she seemed to be really into it as it was the first time I ever asked her. She got rather hot and steamy sexy on the dance floor.

I came off the floor and the guy said if I were you I would take her home - he said he told her that "I was hung like a wild field animal"... of course he just said it for shock value - yet she became a 2 yr LTR who never said the word no. So the power of a good wingman - even an accidental one is real. I have always tried to pay it forward ever since - thus the asshole game as a habit.

[hydrogonian]

I admit to only reading the OP and a couple underneath.

My take on people applies to both males and females:

1. You have to take people as they are because no one changes (though it is possible to change a lateness habit once one has perspective on that particular blind-spot).
2. No one is perfect.
3. Who they are, and thus how they intentionally treat you outside of their habitual flaws, is most important over: status, bad habits, and anything else.

I think that framing this situation as this guy not respecting you is completely hyperbolic and over-emotional. Being habitually late is a minor flaw in either his management of time or his views of the value of time. It'll likely correct with time, but maybe not until he's more mature. He's not a bad guy based on this, and I don't believe that he should have to field significant hostility because of it. Why? Because you know this about him. Simply calculate this particular bad habit into your management of time. Tell him 30 minutes earlier than you actually expect to meet him, for instance. Problem mostly solved. Ejecting him from your social group over this seems like the actions of someone who is over-wound, no offense. Your shit doesn't smell like roses either.

Treat friends how you would want a friend to treat you.

Last, I disagree that friends are over-rated vs. being without. I've actually lost a few friends in the last decade, 2/3 of which were over shitty nightmarish situations out of my control (one went bisexual and then ghost, another was due to a malconceived business venture). The last third was because they were superficial friends and it wasn't likely going to work anyway. But you know what? Having more friends is much better than less, even if they are imperfect friends, and so be careful about who you cut and why. Don't let the internet or popular personal-growth / business books (that tend to freak out over time) decide your values as a person and your behavior as a friend.

I'm also anti-intervention over personal habits and friendship behavior. That shit never goes over well, it doesn't generally work, and it isn't worth it. Merely accept who a person is, until it is wholly unfeasible, and at that point move on. For me, a friend moving into 'unfeasible relationship' territory generally takes consistent sociopathic style behavior.

[Lothario]

I will go with Hydrgonian here, You can not change people, understand their nature and accept it for who they are. Embrace their good side and ignore their bad side up to a point.

To OP it also is a matter of perspective, what you consider as disrespect might not be disrespect in your friends eyes, may be you are sensitive but you guys should be able to talk about it.

If one has considered some one to be a friend because their heart is at right place and is a genuinely nice person that you gel with then stick with the friend and an incident of disrespect should not break the friendship, Men should be able to talk to talk about issues and move on.

[LeeEnfield303]

(04-10-2016 08:57 AM)harveyspecter Wrote:  

I expected answers like this, but we are only 19 years old and going to college together, do I really need to be this radical?

If I were, I would honestly have 0 friends.

The goal is for other guys to work to be your friend. That's where the frame should be.


Radical? Radical at your age is:

- The other guys drink and play video games all the time; you are lifting, reading, and continually self-improving.

- The other guys piss and moan about how girls don't like them; you have an ironclad frame that draws them in.

- The other guys waste copious amounts of time on Twitter, Fakebook, and other social media, while obsessed about what other people think of them on it; you don't have time for social media navel-gazing because you are accomplishing things.

-The other guys have no idea what to do when their student-loan-fueled 4-year Romper Room is over; you have a mission and a plan to get there.

- The other guys constantly shit on their friends, knowing that their friends are too socially insecure to cut them off; you don't have time for this bullshit and say it in no uncertain terms.


Be THAT radical.

[Mercia]

You're 19 - many things will change for you and your friend in the next 6 years, and I'm not just talking about college. I was extremely unpunctual in my late teens and early 20s. I kicked that bad habit once I got my shit together.

Something to consider - figure what you want to achieve in college, apart from graduating. So stuff like building a social circle, reinventing yourself, exploring activities and experiences you can't do back home. If your friend can contribute to your achievement of said goals, then keep him around.

If you don't want to waste your time waiting around for your friend, then take monster's advice and tell him to show up 30/60 minutes before you intend to meet.

[Dalaran1991]

You would not tolerate disrespect from women. Why would you tolerate disrespect from men?

Of course disrespect depends on you and your friend. My best buddy is always late but he's also the one who will respond to my emergency call at midnight.

When you feel disrespected, be a man and tell him about it. Twice maximum. After that if he doesnt fix his behavior, cut him off.

[hydrogonian]

(04-11-2016 08:43 PM)LeeEnfield303 Wrote:  

The goal is for other guys to work to be your friend. That's where the frame should be.

While a little of this is healthy to keep a good balance with respect to the value seeking nature of others, I disagree that this should be the dominant frame. I'd almost venture that it should be half this and half being the friend that you want to see in others.

Making other people work for your friendship all of the time is a good way to be someone that people hang out with, as long as your value stays high - like a girl (where else do we worry about "frame" in relationships?), but who will eventually be resented for various reasons as you will likely be a shit friend when needed.

And I don't get the life comparison frame when evaluating friends. You aren't looking to fuck or enter into a financial arrangement with your friends.

Being the friend you want to see in others (but don't actually expect this in others as you will be disappointed, it's essentially a selfless act) will have you being named best-man in more weddings that you will expect but it can have you taken for granted in excess (without balance).

LeeEnfield's advice will balance the above and have people be glad you are present for value demonstration and to raise self-esteem through a psych mechanism that isn't really supposed to be central to friendship; you'll be invited places. But you won't develop close friendships. People will keep up the association but you'll always be held in suspicion. Some people will recognize the game, rightly mark you as inauthentic, and perhaps more or less shun you.

Personally, anyone who isn't an authentic friend to me isn't a friend. I don't have the time nor energy for associations masquerading as friendships, and accordingly keep my wagon circle tight. I'll have a good time with associates, but they'll never really mistake me for a friend as they'll never get the common behaviors of friendship from me.

[harveyspecter]

I partly solved this problem, but with deeper analysis of myself I see that this is just a fragment of my problem.

My main issue is actually that I want to "help" my closer friends while fixing their (in my opinion) obvious flaws.

After I do that, since I'm often around them, I see how the advice had 0 impact and get frustrated about it.

It is very hard for me to just ignore them since they come across in direct correlation with me.

I have to somehow accept my friends the way they are and ignore their flaws and somehow concentrate on the good things.

Saddly, I'm not succeeding in this and the frustration appears again and again.

Any thoughts?

[TornadoByProxy]

You are not the first to want to help your friends. My advice, stop.
Stop clinging to people who bring you down because you feel bad for them. They didn't ask for your feels and don't want it.
Focus on bettering yourself and being a good example. That's all you can hope for.
And spend some time making new friends who will make your life better.

[FireStarter]

(06-03-2016 04:33 PM)harveyspecter Wrote:  

My main issue is actually that I want to "help" my closer friends while fixing their (in my opinion) obvious flaws.

Forum member, Quintus Curtius has a podcast where he talks about this. Unfortunately I can't remember which specific one. One of the quotes from it is, "You can't help someone who won't participate in their own rescue".

You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved. Even if they want to be saved, there's a good chance they won't listen to your advice. The first step away from frustration is to realize and accept that it's not your responsibility to change other people.

[The Man w/ the Golden Gun]

(04-10-2016 10:00 AM)Onto Wrote:  

I've learned not to try and make my friends into the men I think they should be.

Onto said it. I tried to change my friends too and that didn't work out. Made me realize that they and I were simply cut from a different cloth.

(04-10-2016 09:11 AM)Comte De St. Germain Wrote:  

...if you get into a certain mentality you'll soon meet people that have a similar mentality or can appreciate yours. It's a rather strange law of the universe.

Getting into a "certain mentality" and meeting people with "a similar mentality" is basically how clubs work. It worked for me in getting a new gang. Last year of college I realized my group of friends and I were different people with different goals, so I joined a boxing club. Working out together in the gym, on technique, and punching each other in the face made me better friends than my original group.

(06-03-2016 06:34 PM)FireStarter Wrote:  

Forum member, Quintus Curtius has a podcast where he talks about this.

I've listened to this podcast episode several times. Quintus Curtius: You Can't Save People Who Won't Participate In Their Own Rescue

[Graft]

Eh, I gotta disagree with most of the thread. If he's a good friend, this is a small issue. Don't drop him. Everyone is assuming that it's straight disrespect. Kid is 19 years old and probably just a little disorganized.

If you are meeting him, adjust your timeframe. If he says meet at 7:00 but he consistently shows up late, show up later than 7:00. Be just as nonchalant with him timewise. Call him before you leave to see if he's on his way. Maybe don't leave until he shows up at the venue. It's not like he's flaking on you. He's a typical young cat who sucks at time management.

[harveyspecter]

(06-03-2016 06:34 PM)FireStarter Wrote:  

(06-03-2016 04:33 PM)harveyspecter Wrote:  

My main issue is actually that I want to "help" my closer friends while fixing their (in my opinion) obvious flaws.

Forum member, Quintus Curtius has a podcast where he talks about this. Unfortunately I can't remember which specific one. One of the quotes from it is, "You can't help someone who won't participate in their own rescue".

You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved. Even if they want to be saved, there's a good chance they won't listen to your advice. The first step away from frustration is to realize and accept that it's not your responsibility to change other people.

It is easy to write that, but it is really hard to me to start doing it.

(06-03-2016 06:40 PM)The Man w/ the Golden Gun Wrote:  

I've listened to this podcast episode several times. Quintus Curtius: You Can't Save People Who Won't Participate In Their Own Rescue

Thanks, I will try and listen to it.

[Jackreacher]

If the people you are hanging out with are disrespecting you either you attracted people who are disrespectful or you were attracted to people who are simply disrespectful to the degree you are experiencing. I don't advise explaining or complaining about any felt or perceived disrespect because they probably don't care, only you do about that and no one wants to hear someone on their case about being more "respectful". If you guys got like years together and it's little stuff I would just accept it in your shoes, not everyones perfect. But if it bothers you enough that it drives you nuts and you don't know him for years I'd start looking for other friends. Don't complain, don't explain.You can give him some shit for it, a little taste of his own medicine if you like but to be frank once you have your fill of the bullshit just get new friends. It sounds sad maybe but life is too short to put up with someone else's bullshit.

I'll also say it probably feels very good to complain to him or explain the situation, to just verbalize your frustrations to your friend but it's not going to feel better then having friends that respect you right?