[Vienna]

(04-06-2016 10:20 AM)RandomGuy1 Wrote:  

(04-06-2016 08:51 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

It's a damn shame that US and Europe allows Russia to monopolize these Caucasus states, when Europe should work to incorporate more of them into a broader European identity.

That is a good point of view, I never thougth about something along those lines.

Have to say that I'm always astouned how complex this whole situation is over there and how far-recharing the ambivilance of this goes back into whatever-century(s).

Same here. Was severely mind-fucked when I realized that echoes of the Roman and Persian empires still reverberate today, with Armenia having remained a contested Christian enclave surrounded by hostile peoples since its birth. Ever-changing borders, migration, cultural overlap... The historical scale is too much to take in.

A massively important region in world history, today largely forgotten. The ongoing conflict isn't exactly front-page news even though it's equal parts tragic and fascinating.

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Somewhat off-topic, but I have to share this...

Historical facts of the day: Armenia was the first Christian country in the world (adopted Christianity as state religion in 301 AD). The oldest wine-making facility (6000 years old) was found in an Armenian cave in 2010. It also has the oldest cathedral in the world (Etchmiadzin cathedral).

[puckerman]

Azerbaijan uses the Latin alphabet. It's the same alphabet we use here.

According to Wikipedia, Chechnya has been changed from the Cyrillic to the Latin alphabet several times during the last 100 years. This has also been the case with the Ingush.

Abkhazia and Ossetia use the Cyrillic alphabet, which is the same used by Russia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Ukraine, Serbia, Kalmyks, and others.

[puckerman]

Armenian has an alphabet that isn't used by anyone else:



Georgia also has alphabets that aren't used anywhere else:

[NASA Test Pilot]

The following was a two part post that I presented on the Geo-politics and monetary connections thread.

thread-53234...pid1270773

I was going to present only bits and pieces here, but decided to post it in its entirety.


Part I

This is presented as a continuation and deepening of the 6th element as well as linking with post #32, #42, and #50 on this Geo-Political thread as well as the Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict thread here: thread-54904.html

This is part of controlling the fulcrum and applying specific pressure across three ancient empires (Russian, Persian, and Ottoman) to play them off against one another in order to control the trade conduit and the resources of the region. A few of the specific pressures as they relate to U.S. hegemony include surrounding Russia as well as Iran and maintaining a handle on Turkey.

Since 1994 Nagorno-Karabakh has been an independent state, but some countries refuse to recognize it as such.

The current country of Azerbaijan is now more of a 20th century creation, created by Stalin who ordered the border in order to contain the Armenians as well as keeping the Azeris occupied. These countries can trace their modern origins back to 10,000 B.C. and the Guruchay culture.

The (first) Persian Empire known as the Achaemenid Empire was formerly Kingdom of Media (under Medes is sometimes technically considered the first Persian Empire), the Kingdom of Lydia, and the Babylonian Empire during in the 6th – 4th century B.C. under Cyrus (II) the Great (who rebelled against his grandfather the Mede king). Cyrus created the role of Satraps or Governors.




Culturally the empire was more aligned with the Ancient Persians and it expanded further under Darius III in the 4th century B.C. After the death of Darius III, the area (Atropatene) being governed Atropates surrendered to Alexander (the Great). Alexander retained the satrapic administration. After replacing the area with a new governor (satrap), Alexander eventually returned Atropates to power and married his daughter to one of his commanders. Atropatene included the southern part of modern day Azerbaijan.

After Alexander´s death, the empire was divided amongst the Diadochi (rival generals) under the partition of Babylon.



--note both Media and Lesser Media should be colored red on this map


Part of the division included the Seleucid Empire, where the satrap generally was designated as strategos; but their provinces were much smaller than under the Persians. The Seleucid Empire was a major center of Hellenistic culture that maintained a preeminence of Greek customs where a Greek political elite dominated, although much of the population was Persian as well as some being Assyrian and Anatolian (Turkish) in origin. The first king was Seleucus I Nicator.




This is KEY…. Atropates refused to pay allegiance to Seleucus I, and made Media Atropatene an independent kingdom (this was 1,000 years before the Mohammed). It subsequently lost the Media prefix in the name and came to be known as Atropatene. The former Achaemenid satrapy of Media was divided into two states: The greater (southern) part; Media Magna was assigned to Peithon, one of Alexander's bodyguards (not to be confused with Peithon, son of Agenor, who was satrap of the Indus). The smaller (northern) region referred to as Lesser Media, which had been the sub-satrapy of Matiene, became Media Atropatene under Atropates, the former Achaemenid governor of all Media, who had by then become father-in-law of Perdiccas, regent of Alexander's designated successor.

Things escalate between, Media Magna under Peithon and Matiene (Lesser Media that later was called Melitene by the Romans) under Atropatene.

Below is a 1st century map of Caucasian Albania and Atropatene. Caucasian Albania is the modern day Republic of Azerbaijan (sometimes referred to as northern Azerbaijan). Atropatene is the modern day Iranian Azerbaijan (sometimes referred to as southern Azerbaijan or Caucasian Azerbaijan by the Iranians).




Another element of this relates to Geo-politics and the Kurds (which is part of the modern day fulcrum). It has been suggested (by a Russian linguist) that Medes, who widely inhabited the land where currently the Kurds form the majority, might have been forefathers of the modern Kurds (see also post#42). Others have identified Kurdish dialects as Parthian, albeit with a Median substratum. See also the language map on post #11 of the Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict Thread. One of the things to consider is how political policy backed by military force discourages/encourages immigration and emigration. Parts of Armenia have changed significantly over the past 100 years and this serves as an example of the weaponization of immigration/emigration that is underway in Europe. I postulate that this was and is by design in both locations.

I would also make a note of caution here as Turkey, Russia, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Iran use different types of disinformation and manipulations in information warfare. It is a challenge to paint an objective picture.

Here is an example Pan-Iranist ideology (who claim that all of Azerbaijan (beginning in the 7th century B.C.) and even Armenia have been a part of Iran) in the early 1920s in opposition to Pan-Turkism (denying the Armenians’ historical and legal rights as to the western part of their homeland of Western Armenia, Cilician Armenia and Armenian Mesopotamia, which were subjected to the Armenian genocide, as well as to the eastern part of their homeland of the liberated lands of Artsakh) and Pan-Arabism (who claim the Persian Gulf should be the Arabian Gulf). These types of ideologies (with and without facts) are driving Geo-politics.




In the 1st century B.C. the Sythians (Greek name for nomad), and Parthians (mostly Persian and antagonistic with the Armenians) along with the western part of Modern Georgia (as the eastern edge of the Roman Empire) formed the fulcrum. Seleucid expansion into Anatolia (Turkey and into the Armenian highlands) and Greece was halted after crushing defeats by the Roman army (see other posts). This was another major acceleration of hostilities that previously began some 300 hundred beforehand, and yet 700 years before the Muslim conquests.

The Seleucid dynasty gradually lost control of Persia over the next few centuries. In approximately 253 A.D., the Arsacid dynasty established itself in Parthia. Parthia was at the center of the silk Road. The dynasty founded by Atropates would rule the kingdom for several centuries, first independently, then as vassals of the Arsacids (who called it ´Aturpatakan´). It was eventually annexed by the Arsacids, who then lost it to the Sassanids (and later Dabuyid), who again called it ´Aturpatakan.´ Sometime between 639 and 643 the Arabs under the Rashidun (1st Caliphate) took control of the area during the reign of Umar. Atropatene formed a separate province of the early Islamic caliphate and was considered to have had strategic importance. It was during the Arab period that Middle Iranian (i.e. Parthian and Middle Persian) Aturpatakan became Adarbaygan or Azerbaijan.




This continued with the Rashidun Caliphate were 2 more Caliphates, then 3 more dynasties, an Empire, another dynasty, The Mongol Empire and Ilkhanate, 7 rival dynasties, 6 more dynasties and ended with Pahlavi Dynasty in 1979 and Mohammad Reza (Shah) Pahlavi.

Part II continues due to limitation of pictures.

[NASA Test Pilot]

Part II

Departing Iran and returning North to Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Turkey, and Russia.

In 20 B.C., Emperor Augustus (of Rome) nominated Ariobarzanes II, the son of Artavasdes, to be king of Media Atropatene and then he was also appointed king of Armenia. This lasted almost 40 years when he was murdered. During the 1st century AD, Greater Armenia remained an independent kingdom under the Arsacid dynasty.




Throughout this period, Armenia remained an area of contention between Rome and the Parthian Empire, as well as the Sasanian Empire (which eventually gained power), this was the reason for several of the Roman–Persian Wars.




In the late 4th century A.D., Armenia was divided between Rome and the Sasanians. The Sasanians took control of the larger part (80%) of the Armenian Kingdom and in the mid-5th century abolished the Armenian monarchy altogether.

Under Roman rule, Melitene (formerly Matiene) was the base camp of Legio XII Fulminata. Emperor Theodosius I divided the region into two provinces: First Armenia (Hayk'), with its capital at Sebasteia (modern Sivas); and Second Armenia, with its capital at Melitene. The Satrapies in the south on the other hand, which had been under Roman influence already since 298 A.D., were a group of six fully autonomous principalities allied to the Empire (civitates foederatae): Ingilene, Sophene, Anzitene, Asthianene, Sophanene and Balabitene. The local Armenian Nakharars were fully sovereign in their territories, and were only required to provide soldiers upon request and to dispatch a golden crown to the emperor, as a token of submission. In return, they received their royal insignia, including red shoes, from the emperor. The situation remained unchanged for nearly a century, until a large-scale revolt by the satraps in 485 A.D. against Emperor Zeno occurred and the satraps were stripped of their sovereignty and their rights of hereditary succession. Then came a balkanization where Armenia was divided into 4 provinces and heavily taxed until a revolt sprung up and was quelled by the Romans and the revolt leaders took refuge in Persia.




In the 6th and 7th centuries A.D., Armenia once again became a battleground between the East Romans (Byzantines) and the Sasanians, until both powers were defeated and replaced by the Muslim Caliphate in the mid-7th century. In the last part of the 6th century A.D. most of Persia-Armenia was ceded to the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire and Armenia came under direct Byzantine control. After the death of Muhammad in 632 A.D., the Arab conquest of Armenia began and lasted through the 11 century A.D. finishing with the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 A.D., when all of Armenia fell to the Seljuks.

During Islamic rule, Arabs from other parts of the Caliphate settled in Armenia. By the 9th century, there was a well-established class of Arab emirs, more or less equivalent to the Armenian Nakharars. At the end of this period, in 885, the Bagratid Kingdom of Armenia was established. Before this, Armenia had been the first country to establish Christianity as its state religion in 301 A.D and before that the dominant religion in Armenia was Zoroastrianism (promoted by the Parthian/Sassanid Empire).

Over one thousand years later, the map looked like something below where Armenia was largely under Ottoman rule. The vast majority of Armenians, grouped together under the name Armenian millet (community) and led by their spiritual head, the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople. Through the millet system, the Armenian community was allowed to rule themselves under their own system of governance with little interference from the Ottoman government with exceptions in large urban centers and the extremely wealthy areas.




With the silk road at the time looking something like this:




The area of Azerbaijan has historically been a part of a larger group to include the Mongols in the 13th Century and the Russian Empire in the 19th Century and was commonly known as Albania (not to be confused with Albania near Greece on the Adriatic) or Caucasian Albania until 1918.

The following will be a vast simplification. The Azerbaijan Democratic Republic proclaimed its independence in 1918 and became the first Muslim-majority democratic and secular republic. The choice of the name Azerbaijan in 1918 was not liked by the government in Persia (present-day Iran), who suspected that the republic was nothing more than a tool in the Ottoman Turks´ plans to eventually lay claim to the Persian province of Azerbaijan in Persia´s northwest.

The new Azeri government declared also the inclusion of Nagorno Karabakh and Zangezour (a mountainous area in the province of Siunik in southern Armenia) in its territory, but the Armenians in these two areas refused to accept the Azeri sovereignty. The Azeri claim was also supported by the Ottoman Turks who considered themselves the cousins of the Tatars (also known as Russian/Ukrainian (Turkic (not Turkish) speaking Mongols) Muslims and Caucasian Turks). The Ottoman Turks wanted geographic connectivity to those whom they believe(d) are their brothers (Caucasian Turks) in Baku, Daghestan, Turkestan, and Azerbaijan. However, the Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh refused to give way and declared their independence. The Ottoman soldiers in Transcaucasia were eventually replaced by British soldiers after World War I and the Armenian slaughter (sometimes called the Armenian Holocaust (which had been preceded 6 years earlier with the Adana massacres and 15 years before that with the Hamidian massacres) or Armenian Genocide where 800,000-1,500,000 Armenians, Ottoman Greeks, and Assyrians were lost from 1915-1918). The Armenia communities that are seen around the world today are generally a direct result of this part of history in Armenia. Turkey denies such assertions and views them as quelling rebellions. Azerbaijan then tried to annex Nagorno-Karabakh with the help of the British in order to establish full control over the oil exports from Baku. History is rhyming a century later.




Azerbaijan was incorporated into the Soviet Union in 1920 as the Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic. There is another piece of history here where the Soviets desired the new Republic of Turkey, under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk to develop into a communist ruled country. The Soviets chose to donate Karabakh as well as Nakhichevan, both acknowledged parts of the Republic of Armenia during 1919-1920, to Azerbaijan, the Turks' closest cousins in the Transcaucasus, until this time Nakhichevan had no actual geographic common border with Turkey. I posit that this was part of Stalin´s policy of divide and rule (conquer).

Azerbaijan proclaimed its independence in August 1991, before the official dissolution of the USSR. In September 1991, the disputed Armenian-majority Nagorno-Karabakh region re-affirmed its desire to create a separate state as the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. The region, effectively independent since the beginning of the Nagorno-Karabakh War in 1991, is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan until a final solution to its status is found through negotiations facilitated by the OSCE (Minsk Group), but neither Armenia nor Azerbaijan has accepted these proposals as satisfactory. An important factor that has been missing for all years of mediation efforts, however, remains Karabakh´s absence in the direct negotiations. To date, Azerbaijan has refused to recognize Karabakh as a counterpart to the conflict and insisted on their exclusion from the negotiations and instead discussed the issue with Armenia. The Constitution of Azerbaijan does not declare an official religion, and all major political forces in the country are secularist, but the majority of people and some opposition movements adhere to Shia Islam.


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Perhaps for another time, there is a parallel and connection to the above in the Middle East where the Akkadian people of Mesopotamia eventually coalesced into two major Akkadian speaking nations: Assyria in the north, and, a few centuries later, Babylonia in the south. The capital of the Akadian empire (some consider this the first empire) Akkad has not yet been located. Interestingly, many of the more recent insights on the Akkadian Empire have come from excavations in the Upper Khabur area in northeastern Syria. The main rivals, neighbors and trading partners to early Assyrian during the 22nd 20th centuries B.C. were the Hattians and Hurrians to the north in Asia Minor (connecting to the end of post #42)

Assyria was originally an Akkadian kingdom which evolved in the 25th to 24th centuries B.C. after shaking off Sumerian domination. The Old Assyrian Empire from the 21st to 14th centuries B.C. The Middle Assyrian Empire from the 14th to the 9th centuries B.C. The Neo-Assyrian Empire was 10th -7th centuries B.C.

[fiasco360]

(04-06-2016 11:37 PM)puckerman Wrote:  

Armenian has an alphabet that isn't used by anyone else:



Georgia also has alphabets that aren't used anywhere else:

Armenian alphabet was invented by
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesrop_Mashtots

They actually did they sermons in Syriac before hand. I believe he's credited with the formation of the Georgian alphabet and Caucasian Albanian alphabet seen below:


An interest of note is that I've seen similarities between the writing of Gujarati Script and Armenian


Although it was said he consulted with Assyrian clergy on the formation of the alphabet, the script is from left to right as opposed to right to left like Syriac.

[getdownonit]

^ Reminds me of Burmese script, wonder what the relation is

[highcardace]

In regard to the recent violation of the ceasefire, I can comment that this was a provocation by NATO and Western powers through Turkey and Azerbaijan. As coincidence would have it, Kerry met up with Aliyev (Azerbaijan president) few days before the violent clashes.

Azerbaijan claims that Armenians violated the ceasefire, but this does not make sense, as why would the Armenians violate the ceasefire to provoke a war when they already control 100% of what they desire and seek an international recognition of the borders rather than war to risk losing any territory.

We can assume for sure that Azerbaijan was the one who violated the ceasefire. This comes after the color revolution organized by NATO and Western powers in Armenia failed to topple the pro Russia government. Looks like the West is now using the Nagorno Karabakh card to destabilize Armenia which is considered the closest ally to Russia in the region. This is also convenient as Turkey has soured its relations with Russia and has no problem aiding the West in provoking and destabilizing Russia's presence in the region.

As we know the violence came to a stop and ceasefire was announced once again, after Putin spoke with Armenia's and Azerbaijan's presidents. This signifies in my mind that although Azerbaijan was influenced by Western powers to provoke Armenia, it could not defy the orders and ultimatum of Putin and had no choice but to stop the violence.

This is far from over and this region is essentially a battle ground between Western and Russian powers, who are not fighting directly but using these small countries as pawns and areas to control and exert influence on one another.

This is very similar to the situation in Ukraine, where Western powers destabilized Ukraine by overthrowing its democratically elected leader Yanukovich and dividing and "conquering" essentially the area from Russia's influence. However they didn't count on Putin's bravery and savagery for taking Crimea and putting forth Russia's dominant power in the region.

Armenia needs to stick with Russia and resist Western influence as of now to prevent itself from turning into a Ukraine. Furthermore Armenia's economy heavily depends on Russia's thus it would be catastrophic to turn against them as both Western and Eastern borders of Armenia are closed and is essentially in a semi-blockade situation and in addition to being land locked.