[Highlander]

Hi!

I am 29 years old and since many many years in the game.
I have crossed all the known stages of a player and nowadays after so many years I have realized for myself that I never wanna miss women completely in my life (because of course I enjoy the interaction with them) but at the same time as controversely as it might sound, I have realized that they do not play an important role in my life as well and I think that is in our more individualistic world combined with a ton of feminine centrism existent, the total correct approach for any man nowadays (with different parameters it would be a total different story).

I have created an own metapher which helps me to remind this aspect:
I am always focused on my own way and path (=striving for achieving my own goals and self full fillment, etc.) , but sometimes I make under a nice tree of fruits a small break to not burn out and honestly appreciate and admire this break by picking up a tasty fruit and enjoying it (obviously in this metapher fruit stands for a woman).

Recently I have checked out due to curiousity some content of the MGTOW-movement and I agree that there are many hatred and jaded people who just have decided to hate in general on all women instead off working through their problems with them.

But there are also some people to find which are totally true players and apparently just on the next level already.
They do not kick women entirely out of their world, in fact they spend a decent amount of time with tons of hot women and have a total abundance mentality.
But they do understand way way better than many people in the
pick up-movement that only having pussies in your life will not make you longterm satisfied.


So i just wonder why there is so much negativity from the pick up-communities towards the MGTOW-movement?
Because actually you do not even have to search a lot and you will find many similarities between both of them.

Ok, thats all.
I just would appreciate some opinions on this one.

And as a side note:
Im apologizing upfront for my not so very great English skills, obviously English is not my first language.

[Vaun]

because its largely a sign of defeat

[The Beast1]

The reason MGTOWs are derided is because the mentality of some of the biggest MGTOWs on the internet is voluntary celibacy and outright quitting.

There are more basement dwelling,video game playing MGTOWs who don't see the value in social interactions and disregard game and self improvement as a waste of time.

Certain aspects of the MGTOW attitude are in fact good. They make you your own center for which women and other people orbit around. However the value you project to the world is what causes people to gravitate to you. If you have no value then no one comes to you.

But wholly removing yourself without creating value is a waste ones time on this planet.

[RexImperator]

I actually think this forum is a bit too rough on MGTOW. Mainly because there are a lot of younger guys who don't know what it's like when you get older.

You have less energy, less hormonal drive, less tolerance for bullshit, and yet you have to put in more work for the diminishing returns of less attractive women. That is the harsh reality.

[thoughtgypsy]

The oldschool MGTOW writers put out some amazing material that layed the groundwork for neomasculine thought. Names like Bonecracker, No Ma'am, and Solomon II. Modern MGTOWs strike me as stuck in the anger phase of the red pill. They had a bad experience, don't like how unfair society is towards men, and have sworn off women as a result.

An MGTOW will react to this by saying "Ah, but an MGTOW can be anyone whose decided not to follow society's blueprint for them." This feels a bit too much like the "No true Scotsman" argument to me. While MGTOW may encompass many alternatives (including neomasculinity), in practice, the men who've given up on women entirely identify as MGTOW.

I can understand the sentiment, and would definitely agree that for the most part, interactions with women in the west aren't worth the investment. However, to use that as a reason to give up is irrationally defeatist. There is stole a whole world out there, along with the possibility of enjoyable interactions with women in Eastern Europe, SEA, SA, and others. More importantly, self improvement can be rewarding in itself. For instance, working out has tremendous benefits for higher testosterone, self confidence, and health in general. This can be applied to travel, among many other activities.

The enemies of western civilization are fine with MGTOW, as it allows the men who've discovered the truth to remain docile, a non-threat. They don't want men who are aware of the system to make an effort to improve themselves and develop alternative systems. It is one of the early stages of a man's reaction to the red pill, but can be limiting if clung to for too long.

[Quintus Curtius]

I'll give you my thoughts.

Truth is that these guys do have some good things to say about male-female relations and how broken things are.

But the problem is that their solution is simply another version--no matter how they try to spin it--of giving up and walking away from sex and reproduction.

Once you start going down this road, it becomes a very slippery slope. You start to think that everything is bullshit. And then you succumb to what I call "give up-itis." It's a disease.

No matter how broken women here may be, there are always solutions. Go abroad. Go somewhere else. Do some fucking thing, for Christ's sake.

What you don't do--and what I'll never permit--is for you guys to sit on your asses and turn into a collection of broke-dick whiners.

And that's where MGTOW leads. No matter what they say, that's where their road leads.

So what happens is this: MGTOW becomes a refuge, or a dumping ground, for losers and do-nothings. For slime-bags who don't want to improve.

You think women suck? Yeah, well maybe you suck too! Maybe the problem is YOU, you worthless sack of shit!

You got a problem up your nose? Blow it out, it will do you good. Nothing wrong with venting and raging. We have to allow that to some extent.

But at some point, you've got to get on your feet, adjust your pack, and keep moving forward. Period.

[Onto]

It really all depends on the person too. Some haven't had the "really negative" experiences that modern day Western culture has to offer like being cheated on, divorce-raped and having your children turned against you....just to name a few.

Seeing it in the news is no substitute for actually going through it yourself and it's easy to say, "Western women and culture aren't all that bad", when you haven't been really raked hard over the hot coals or you're still unaware of how women and the media/culture are constantly castrating the masculine at every turn. It's literally in every movie, TV show, advertisement, news story, down to the conversations at the holiday party. If you can't see that, then you are still unaware of what's really going on.

For example, a lot of people love the TV show "Californication", but this is a TV show with a script that's constantly faulting and castrating masculinity. Who's main character doesn't subscribe to any higher principles. He just wants to drink, smoke, fuck and laze about. Granted his personality is exactly what gives American women the tingles since they are so animus-possesed themselves.

It's also easy to say it ain't all that bad if you're YTC (YoungTallCool) and just care about getting laid. I was once young and like that too, and that's perfectly normal. I didn't care about what a woman said. I just played along so I could fuck her. That's all that mattered then, and that's ok, but as you get older other things become important and sex is less satisfying unless it's with someone you actually like and are attracted to on a personal level.

I now longer have any respect for American women or it's culture so I find it impossible for me now to go to any effort to "man-up" and keep spending time and energy on them.

I see a lot of young and beautiful bodies on the street everyday and sure, I lust after that, but once I hear them talking I'm repulsed. When you experience a quality, foreign woman, it's very hard to forget her and pretend castrating, animus-possesed western women are really where it's at.

And Quintus is right. Resigning yourself to become a complainer-for-life is a shrinking of the human spirit. It's one thing to give up on the project all together and find fulfillment in other things and become a monk or whatever, but if a guy truly does that then he's not hanging out and complaining on MGTOW forums.

If you don't like western women, then really man-up and make a demand on yourself to find one that is everything she should be.

[PapayaTapper]

Imagine interaction women as a plate of food with some items that aren't good for you;


MGTOW" "They put mean ol nasty fries that are bad for me on my plate"



"Whaaaaa...Im afraid of what 'fries' can do so"



Fuck that



Fuck their fries....but Im still taking the pussy

[WanderingSoul]

If you can get pussy you veer towards Neomasculinity, or some similar concept and create a great life.

If you can't get pussy you veer towards MGTOW and cry like a bitch on the internet.

[SirTimothy]

I think some MGTOW guys are what they say they're all about - that they simply want to put their own personal freedom/self-improvement before some chick, and that they do have some relationships with women. If a guy is really like that, I'll be the first to defend him.

But I get the impression most of them are not like that in practice. I used to watch a lot of Sandman's videos on YouTube, back when I first started getting into "red-pill" stuff. And while he could make some good points, his videos almost always had an air of defeatism - I remember he once said that traditional marriage, whether decades or even centuries ago, was "slavery" for men, as if to paint men as nothing but perpetual victims of women!

Of course, Sandman is only one person, but his followers were almost all like this, and most other MGTOW's on the internet I've found. Overall, they're just not very manly.

[Quintus Curtius]

^^^

Tim:

I see your point.

Like I said, some of the MGTOW points are understandable reactions to being in a hostile environment. These guys see that they are surrounded by anti-masculine, anti-heroic, anti-traditional, and anti-humanity people. They feel hemmed in, walled in, and helpless.

And I have no problem with the idea of "putting yourself" before your woman. I agree with it.

But here's the problem: we have to be mindful of how theories--however elegant and well-intentioned--translate into practice.

And the problem with MGTOW philosophy is that it lends itself to so, so many abuses by lazy dorks, sluggards, dullards, and do-nothings.

When the chips are down, I want to be led by someone with forceful, commanding, positive masculine energy.

Not by Sandman, whom I see as an effete, up-talking, robotic wimp.

That may sound harsh. And I have nothing against this man personally. I've never met him, corresponded with him, or communicated with him.

But I've heard his voice on a few of his videos. What I hear makes me want to reach through the computer screen and bitch-slap him.

Every sentence ends in an up-talking lilt. He also sounds like an asexual robot. That guy needs to get his prong worked on by sexy chick, and needs to start lifting weights.

So again, my point is this: MGTOW is the road to ruin. It is seductive at first, because it plays into our frustrations and admitted demoralization at times.

But the answer is not, I submit, a quiet and cozy withdrawal to a book-lined cottage in Cornwall. No, no, and again...no.

That would be suicide.

The answer is to resist, to fight back.

And we do this by improving ourselves, expanding our networks with like-minded men, by seeking out adventures and opportunities for growth, and by embracing the glory of struggle in all its forms.

.

[Sooth]

Some of them also have an inflated sense of self worth and think that by removing themselves from the market they are getting some sort of revenge.

They're hoping their absence will cause enough trauma that someone runs after them or comes looking - though of course no one cares.

Too pussy for young girls and too selfish for old ones.

[Days of Broken Arrows]

If you're older and have been divorce-raped or otherwise had a full life and then had the rug pulled out from under you, then MGTOW makes sense, if only as a break from the troubles women can bring.

But if you're 15-30 doing this, frankly, you have serious issues. When you're young women are plentiful and single and there is really no reason to be hiding from them. I couldn't imagine being an MGTOW in college. It would have been impossible anyway, unless someone locked me in the dorm cellar.

In fact, I'd say that if you want a good life, you have to do the opposite of this when you're young. Meet (if not date) as many girls as possible so you know the type that would be best for you in a long-term situation.

Also, I'd like to remind everyone yet again that the time to really get out there is when you're young because once you start creeping past 30, a lot of good ones get taken off the market. For me personally, it never got better than when I was 19-25 and could stroll into the local mall, spot nice-looking girls my age or younger working retail, and get several numbers in one night. You can't pull this off as the decades pass for obvious reasons, so enjoy it while you can.

[Quintus Curtius]

The market is created by you.

You are the market.

You are the prize.

There are always good women out there. You have to get away from the barrels of rotten apples, and go to the barrels with good apples.

[nomadbrah]

(12-12-2015 02:15 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

If you can get pussy you veer towards Neomasculinity, or some similar concept and create a great life.

If you can't get pussy you veer towards MGTOW and cry like a bitch on the internet.

Harsh, but sort of true.

I've had some hardship of different sorts in my life, also with women, but at least I always had hope. That's all I needed to keep going, keep moving up, the hope that you can do better.

I think no man is really defeated until he has no more hope. MGTOW are basically people who have given up and that's just a depressing place to be in.

Perhaps it basic psychology. Do you enjoy the fight or not?

I've noticed liberals and the 'modern man' doesn't seem to enjoy the fight, only the result. They never seem to have an appreciation for the basic act of trying.

MGTOW is the same in a way. They don't seem to have that appreciation of playing the hand you were dealt no matter how paltry.

[Suits]

If the MGTOW "movement" had any value, they wouldn't be spending their time making videos about not wasting time on women. They'd be making Youtube videos about their other passions and genuinely enjoying life.

These guys are very anger phase. They act like they're enlightened, but they are obviously just stuck in a rut and achieving nothing.

[PapayaTapper]

(12-12-2015 07:16 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

(12-12-2015 02:15 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

If you can get pussy you veer towards Neomasculinity, or some similar concept and create a great life.

If you can't get pussy you veer towards MGTOW and cry like a bitch on the internet.

Harsh, but sort of true.

I've had some hardship of different sorts in my life, also with women, but at least I always had hope. That's all I needed to keep going, keep moving up, the hope that you can do better.

I think no man is really defeated until he has no more hope. MGTOW are basically people who have given up and that's just a depressing place to be in.

Perhaps it basic psychology. Do you enjoy the fight or not?

I've noticed liberals and the 'modern man' doesn't seem to enjoy the fight, only the result. They never seem to have an appreciation for the basic act of trying.

MGTOW is the same in a way. They don't seem to have that appreciation of playing the hand you were dealt no matter how paltry.

It's essentially the same mentality imposed on every other "victim" group: The system sucks, the framework is against you, don't even try, it's not worth it. "Going their own way" is a misnomer. It's just going someone else's way...the one THEY say is better.

The true alternative path should be MGEWTWOOL (Men getting exactly what they want out of life)

[Belgrano]

The fox who longed for grapes, beholds with pain
The tempting clusters were too high to gain;
Grieved in his heart he forced a careless smile,
And cried, ‘They’re sharp and hardly worth my while.’

Here´s your answer.
If you are still unsure about the meaning, let Phaedrus make it clear:

Driven by hunger, a fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to, although he leaped with all his strength.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet! I don't need any sour grapes.'
People who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain would do well to apply this story to themselves.

Wisdom of the ancients.

[RexImperator]

I think we have different definitions of what you call MGTOW. I think of it as guys just doing their own thing.

You guys are talking about guys who make YouTube videos or blogs complaining about stuff.

[scorpion]

I see three types of MGTOWs:

1) Incel men rationalizing their failure with women as a lifestyle choice
2) Closeted/repressed homosexuals who, consciously or not, are using MGTOW as a gateway to faggotry
3) Older men who bear the scars of a hellish divorce or two

So, why are MGTOWs ridiculed and regarded as losers? In short: because they are losers. MGTOW is basically softer form of suicide. It's something that desperate men do because they don't feel like they have any other choice. If you can't get women (because you're hopeless, secretly gay or emotionally scarred) it's very easy for your brain to start hamstering reasons why you don't really want to get women, you actually want to...go your own way! It's the illusion of regaining control that helps to preserve the psyche in the face of total and abject sexual failure.

Ugly/hopeless/broken/dyke women are attracted to feminism for the same reasons.

[Onto]

I haven't read any MGTOW forums or videos. The only knowledge I have of it is what I've read on this forum.

I have seen, and do think people in their 40's and beyond begin to put much less energy into dating and "finding the One". I think this is because they stop believing in it as an answer. Especially if they are a person who was had a lot of experience.

This is how I've found myself to be, at 45, these past several years. The only hope and desire I have anymore is for women in another country. I don't expect men in their 20s and 30s to feel this way. I certainly didn't.

I don't think I'm hamstering away anything either. I know very well what being with women has been like for 30 years now. Many great times for sure, but those times were when I was a very different person. A person who was less developed and with much less knowledge.

I'm glad there are so many American men happy to stay here and keep the women occupied. If they didn't, and instead decided to migrate to other shores en masse, the US would probably pass laws to stop us from leaving the country all together. One day it might happen.

[eatthishomie]

Because with some exceptions, MGTOW is a refuge for sexual failure.

Especially the ones who think they're spiting women somehow by getting out of the pool ("I'm taking my balls and going home!"). Get real, dude. Women (even fat ugly women) have such a smorgasbord of dick available to them on any given day that a few MGTOWs are barely even a blip on their radar. In fact, if the person saying this is a fat unattractive neck beard beta like a lot of MGTOWs are, women may even celebrate him leaving the game.

That said, some MGTOW ideas are good (do for yourself first and foremost and don't make women the center of your life).

[Easy_C]

Mostly because they're adult versions of Holden Caufield.

[therealpoder]

I'm not talking about "real MGTOWS", which are interesting and accomplished men who could get married but choose not to. But even these men date and usually get married despite being "real MGTOWS. I am speaking about the average man who calls himself MGTOW.:

1. They are anti-reproduction. Humans shame acts that don't lead to reproduction since it leads to the death of the human race. It's the same reason why old male virgin are shamed or the guy who can't get laid gets laughed at or women who preserve their virginity too long are looked down upon or childless spinsters are seen as losers.

2. These guys are quitters. Quitting is looked down upon. Moreover, they are quitting at something which is the most important part of life, reproduction.

3. In a lot of cases, these men haven't even tried. And they use the excuse of broken women of the West to not try.

4. Many, if not most, if these guys are presumed to be losers. Think about real life. Who is more likely to say that "all women suck"? Your friend that gets laid or your friend that doesn't get laid?

5. It is not a long term solution. Due to biology, you are always going to want to date and have sex with women. If you ignore this impluse, it will cause frustration, resentment and sadness. The reason for this is this is your body telling you to go out and get laid to perpetuate the species. However, MGTOWS ignore these signals, which is why they tend to have a lot of resentment and depression. Ironically, they spend a lot of time bashing women even though they are supposed to be avoiding and living without them.

6. A lot of these men come off as whiners and are insecure.They complain about women, have no real long term solution and feel the need to remind everyone that they are MGTOWS all thine time, which is lame. It like a guy bragging that he is confident or rich. Those qualities are self evident; you shouldn't need to advertise those qualities. Complaining without working towards a solution is whining.

[Suits]

(12-12-2015 10:24 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

I see three types of MGTOWs:

1) Incel men rationalizing their failure with women as a lifestyle choice
2) Closeted/repressed homosexuals who, consciously or not, are using MGTOW as a gateway to faggotry
3) Older men who bear the scars of a hellish divorce or two

4) Men who are doing nothing unusual, are in no way part of any movement, but like to describe themselves with an acronym because they have boring lives and just want to be "part of something."

5) Men who aren't failures, but just because they think for themselves occasion, have come to believe that they fit into the MGTOW category. They are otherwise no different from other men who in no way consider themselves MGTOW.

6) Men who wouldn't describe themselves as MGTOW and perhaps don't even know what that means, but have been labeled MGTOW by hopeless losers in an effort to add clout to their own personal beliefs.

xxxxxex. "Leonardo DeCaprio has sex with anyone woman he wants! He's not married and who doesn't give a fuck about what any woman thinks! He's MGTOW too! You, see? MGTOW is really popular, even among stars!

(12-13-2015 08:58 AM)therealpoder Wrote:  

I'm not talking about "real MGTOWS", which are interesting and accomplished men who could get married but choose not to.

That's not a MGTOW at all. That's just a committed bachelor. It's not a movement. There have been men like that since the dawn of time. No fancy acronym required.