Quote: (12-11-2013 07:13 AM)kingjuice Wrote:
Mandela the communist:
This clip is a complete waste of time. Consider the absurdity of this dude's argument when he states that the group Mandela was apart of (ANC) committed terrorist acts even though Mandela didn't commit those acts, meaning he's guilty by association. By that same logic one could argue that all whites who lived in South Africa during Apartheid were complicit in its government's actions.
The Newt Gingrich clip has been the best post on this thread. He really frames the context under which Mandela lived very well, so you understand precisely why he made the choices he did as an individual.
When you have a historical figure so widely revered by so many people, many of whom deeply disagree with each other about many other important issues, it's probably a good idea to study that person. I can understand how some people are put off by the media characterization of Mandela as a saint (which he has refuted a million times, read his book), but simply dismissing him as part of some media conspiracy at the expense of studying the guy is a reflection of unhealthy cynicism and intellectual laziness.
As for Mandela's communist flirtations, he said many times in interviews and his books that communists were the only people that treated blacks as equals during Apartheid, at least ostensibly. Mandela grew up under a totalitarian system where the cards were stacked against blacks to perpetually remain unfree and oppressed. He didn't grow up in some corny ass Bill O'Reilly "leave it to beaver" type of America where a capitalist government provided him with a respectable quality of life to where he could rally against communism, quite the contrary. So he made whatever allies he could get in his quest to free his own people. He even embraced nonviolence - considered Gandhi a mentor - until the Apartheid government became increasingly more repressive, culminating in a horrific event where 69 black peaceful protesters were gunned down and killed while the world did nothing (as Newt Gingrich suggested when he asked where were conservatives when Apartheid was going on). At that point, the ANC surmised that violence could potentially work as a tactic in forcing the government to negotiate, as a last resort. Mandela never shied away from this truth about his past. He has incessantly stated he is no saint and discussed ad nauseum - in vivid detail - the violent tactics used by the ANC during that time and their reasoning for it. Many times his jailers offered him freedom in exchange for renouncing violence, but he refused. He spent 18 of his 27 years in prison doing hard labor, which resulted in his eye sight being impaired - due to his work on limestone quarries - and his tear ducts being irreversibly damaged to where they could never produce tears. This dude did all of this at no benefit to him, but for his people. Amazingly, he emerged from prison wise enough to understand that communism doesn't work and that a free market economy is the best hope for South Africa.
The bottom line is South Africa was fucked either way. Apartheid was unsustainable due to overwhelming international condemnation and vigorous sanctions against the South African economy. On the other hand, since whites controlled the economy, leaving them out of the mix in a new South Africa would have ensured that South Africa would become another Haiti, a perpetual basket case. All you have to do is look at what Robert Mugabe did to Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia) which was very similar to South Africa. Mugabe kicked out all whites from Zimbabwe, which resulted in a massive flight of capital and today Zimbabwe's unemployment rate is an astonishing 84%. Not only that, but Mugabe also has set a record as Africa's longest serving dictator. He even once lost an election and refused to accept the result, leaving the will of his people to the wind. Contrast that with Mandela who argued for a constitutionally sound, multiracial and democratic SA, and where he only served a single term. South Africa, despite all of its problems, is a G-20 economy, the only African country that can claim that.
As I've said before, black South Africans were ready to go to war yet wouldn't have had the ability to raise up a competitive and vibrant economy the way whites are able to. What Mandela and FW de Clerk did was reach a compromise where whites would still have control of the country's economic resources while blacks would have freedom and self-determination in a new South Africa vis-a-vis affirmative action. This arrangement ended up benefiting upwardly mobile blacks who are now part of the burgeoning black middle class, wealthy whites who control the major industries, and entrepreneurial Indians (who live better than Indians almost anywhere else and who also suffered under Apartheid). The people who felt they got fucked were poor or middle class whites, especially those who lacked connections during Apartheid. There are also many blacks who have yet been unable to climb out of poverty, just like during Apartheid. SA still has a long way to go. It's very corrupt and unequal, but it's always been that way. Also, some whites who left at the end of Apartheid are now beginning to return. There's also been a doubling in the size of British expats, from 250K to now 500K.
A lot of those white folks who initially moved out did so because they suddenly found themselves in a position to have to compete with blacks who previously were oppressed and barred from working their jobs, as well as fear for their safety. They longer saw a future in a new SA.
The alternative as I've said would have been a Haiti, Somalia, or Zimbabwe type of situation, all of which are basket cases.
The fact that Mandela was able to negotiate such a thoughtful compromise in light of spending 27 years in prison is nothing short of extraordinary. No one is saying South Africa is paradise, not even close, but it's far better than it would have been had Mandela not been there. An country with whites in economic control in a society where blacks have self-determination is far better than a country without whites. That's just fact, which is why South Africa has the biggest economy on the African continent, including North Africa.
Most black South Africans - and people in general - are nothing like Mandela. Few, if any, could deal with the injustice he faced with his measure of dignity and grace. If any of you watched the memorial service and were paying attention, you would have easily noticed how hood many of the black South Africans in that audience were. They were acting a fool, booing their own President at an event that was televised around the world, etc. Without the guidance and wisdom of Mandela steering the end of apartheid, who knows what bloodshed would have occurred.
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