[El Chinito loco]

(09-24-2015 09:56 PM)wi30 Wrote:  

^Eh, I would just describe them as lazy borderline red-pill guys without any game or self improvement.

Not even red pill in the slightest. They are just disgruntled herbivore men who are afraid of social interaction and have extreme neurosis when it comes to women. They use that to formulate their own hypothesis concerning society and crib stuff from random things they read on the internet.

Your average asperger's kid has more in common with MGTOW than any actual red pill guy.

[easternwomenrule]

When I'm in the west, I basically give up women unless I find a real feminine woman that hasn't been in the west for very long and isn't fat like most of the population!

I refuse to give a broken westernised woman any of my attention or pleasure. When they acknowledge me, I just pretend they don't exist! I prefer to be around a group of babies crying than watch their muscular body language, deep voice, depressive facial expressions, short hair and tattoos. Even worst feminine beta men everywhere...

I've been back in the west for 2 weeks now and I feel like I'm having a nightmare which I can't wait to wake up from. Even worst hearing how Feminists have fucked up my country even more since I left.

All MGTOW need to head to the East if they want real women! It took allot guts to do it at first but your life will be 100x better!

[Rhyme or Reason]

(09-24-2015 11:30 PM)eatthishomie Wrote:  

These VGTOWs honestly think they are hurting women by taking themselves out. They're only hurting themselves. Even a below average woman has such a veritable buffet of cock to gorge on that a handful of VGTOWs disregarding them is barely even a blip on the radar. They hurt no one but themselves.

Look, we all remember that Scottish survey that said 42% of women admitted they were willing to spermjack a man. Think about the implications of that, 42% of women are a direct threat to my independence and freedom. If that survey is any indication, a little less than half of all women are a literal health risk for me. Now, does this stop me from pursuing women? Hell no! I know that I need women in my life. I acknowledge that I need women in my life regardless of the risk. Even with all of their bullshit, women are the yin to our yang. Not having women in your life can drive you fucking crazy - look at Elliot Rodger, all the evidence you need for that. At least I acknowledge it. I think deep down, the VGTOW movement would acknowledge that too.

That's the catch 22 of being a man, may as well suck it up and accept it or deal with a life of miserable celibacy.

I disagree that getting laid would have prevented Elliot Rodger from doing what he did. It wasn't that he just "couldn't get laid". Go watch the guy's videos. He was insane. He came from a wealthy hollywood family with LOTS of connections. Even the most beta guy would have had some kind of connection with SOME girl given his setup. He just had serious mental issues.

[richler]

MGTOW are not going "their own way". They are going in a very specific way, and one that generally follows failure. They are following the path of least resistance for the marginal and the pitiful and calling it a choice. Where would such men have been in even a pre-modern society? At the tavern with sots, amputees and lunatics. These aren't healthy men. These men have no programme.

[It_is_my_time]

(09-25-2015 09:37 AM)easternwomenrule Wrote:  

When I'm in the west, I basically give up women unless I find a real feminine woman that hasn't been in the west for very long and isn't fat like most of the population!

I refuse to give a broken westernised woman any of my attention or pleasure. When they acknowledge me, I just pretend they don't exist! I prefer to be around a group of babies crying than watch their muscular body language, deep voice, depressive facial expressions, short hair and tattoos. Even worst feminine beta men everywhere...

I've been back in the west for 2 weeks now and I feel like I'm having a nightmare which I can't wait to wake up from. Even worst hearing how Feminists have fucked up my country even more since I left.

All MGTOW need to head to the East if they want real women! It took allot guts to do it at first but your life will be 100x better!

Way back when MGTOW was coined and the idea originated, it started on a forum created by a guy who expatted to Japan and his frustrations with American women and trying to get other men to get out and see the world. So the original idea was sort of based on the idea of going your own way, as of going away from what was the 1990's narrative to settle down and get married in the USA.

Things were much more simple back then.

Anyway, today this is probably a guy's best option. To learn game, swallow the red pill truths of life, and still look overseas for a quality woman as they are so rare in the western world.

The problem is, after 7 years of a terrible economy and the crisis in Europe, the ability to travel like this is disappearing. Middle class jobs with plenty of vacation are disappearing, and even those that remain are so over worked there is almost no way to get away for a month and visit other countries. Online businesses are crashing. And money is becoming tougher to come by.

Dealing with women in the USA is a big risk, and one I choose to avoid for the time being. But I am older and my sex drive isn't the same as a 22 year old. Thank God I was in my early 20's before 9/11 and this country really fell off a cliff. I had my fun when women were just crappy, but before this country became a police state. I can't blame these men for avoiding women altogether when you combine the huge risks and the tiny reward/quality.

[Quintus Curtius]

I know it's easy to trash these guys, for all the valid reasons that other posters have given above.

But I tend to have some sympathy, up to a point, for these guys.

Withdrawal from the game of life, of which sex is a part, is not good. We're all agreed on that.

But we need to understand that not every guy is a fighter. Some guys are just crushed by all the feminism, injustice, anti-male atmosphere, and all the rest. It really is a big burden, and we need to remember that.

Even the strongest of us--if he is being honest with himself--gets worn down by the shit we see out there on a daily basis.

As much as we don't like to admit it, there are two responses to a stressful situation: fight or flight.

We forget that for every man who chooses the former, three or more choose the latter.

One other thing I think needs to be said about these guys.

I suspect that many of them are not as passive or supine as we might think. Some of them may be good men, but they have just never had any good leadership. They've never found anything worth fighting for. They can be converted.

Deep within the well of every man's soul is a reservoir of strength that can be tapped into when the right circumstances are present. The problem is that until recently, there has been no fighting movement to rally these guys.

In the male universe today, we have three options:

MRA: generally an older crowd focusing on working within the system for male rights at the legal level.

MGTOW: Throw in the towel and shun women.

Neomasculinity: This is the only real "fighting movement" for men today. This is it. It is the most ambitious of all the movements, because it actually wants to roll back the tide of feminism and cultural decay. It is not satisfied with containment: it wants to replace the existing culture with another culture. There is no room for compromise.

It doesn't want to just play defense, it wants to go on offense all across the board, and take the fight to the enemy. No one else is doing this.

It is unapologetically aggressive, messianic, and visionary.

It is fighting a very low-level type of struggle at this point by shaping mens' minds, by waking them up to new ideas, by building networks of like-minded individuals, and by slowly shaping the media landscape.

This is the movement that will inherit the earth.

[Renzy]

I've got no problem with MGTOW. For every guy who drops out that way, it's still one step closer to change. If they're not going to fight, then it's better to have them sitting on the sidelines than aiding the enemy or perpetuating the status quo.

[Eskhander]

The best arguments I have heard from MGTOW revolve around the Artificial Womb making their movement viable.

But they also seem to think the AW will make all men act like them, which I think is hubris.

[ManVsMachine]

(09-25-2015 05:13 PM)Eskhander Wrote:  

The best arguments I have heard from MGTOW revolve around the Artificial Womb making their movement viable.

But they also seem to think the AW will make all men act like them, which I think is hubris.

That is a good argument but it faces the beast of legislation. Hell, even sexbots will likely be legislated as a last ditch effort to restrain male sexuality.

But big brother aside, a motherless home is just as bad as a fatherless home, especially in the earliest years. Harlow's monkey studies apply to most developed mammals.

[Easy_C]

(09-25-2015 12:03 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

I know it's easy to trash these guys, for all the valid reasons that other posters have given above.

But I tend to have some sympathy, up to a point, for these guys.

But we need to understand that not every guy is a fighter. Some guys are just crushed by all the feminism, injustice, anti-male atmosphere, and all the rest. It really is a big burden, and we need to remember that.

They're doing neither fight, nor flight, for the most part. Instead they're more like Eyore, just sitting down insisting everything is terrible.

The way I see it is that however sympathetic I may be, expressing that sympathy isn't what's best for them. What they need is a swift kick in the ass to get them either back into the fight or out the door.

[Easy_C]

(09-25-2015 05:18 PM)ManVsMachine Wrote:  

(09-25-2015 05:13 PM)Eskhander Wrote:  

The best arguments I have heard from MGTOW revolve around the Artificial Womb making their movement viable.

But they also seem to think the AW will make all men act like them, which I think is hubris.

That is a good argument but it faces the beast of legislation. Hell, even sexbots will likely be legislated as a last ditch effort to restrain male sexuality.

But big brother aside, a motherless home is just as bad as a fatherless home, especially in the earliest years. Harlow's monkey studies apply to most developed mammals.

Quote:

That was stupid Winston, stupid! You should know better than to say a thing like that!

As do you. The goal is NOT to restrain male sexuality, but to ensure that male sexual energy is wasted and dissipated....hence the reason they've been pushing pornography and male masturbation aids.

It's about disempowering males, because every example in history of an effective rebellion was the result of alpha males banding together when the time was right. When you feminize the males, depriving them of their aggression and getting them to deplete their masculine energy into a napkin(or a fleshlight, or a sexbot) you make them more submissive and ensure that they will embrace their role as slaves.

So no. Expect the elite to embrace the spread of sexbots and help it along.

[iknowexactly]

(09-24-2015 09:46 PM)Vanguard Wrote:  

(09-24-2015 09:31 PM)manly5000 Wrote:  

Can somebody explain the hatred that this community has for MGTOW, and vice versa? Because it doesn't make any fucking sense to me.

I hadn't heard of them before starting this thread, but after doing some reading, I think I somewhat understand what they're trying to do and why it's so harmful.

It appears they believe feminism has destroyed the entire female race and that it's impossible for a man to have a relationship with one. Because of this, they advocate for all men to end their relationships and become social exiles.

Nah, you've got me wrong at least. I'm older and am not advocating anything for anyone but myself.

If you're YoungTallCool enough such that the cost/benefit analysis makes it worth it to deal with women socially, more power to you.

What you'll find as you get older (especially past 55-60) and are not rich and/or famous is that the ROI of dealing with women gets lower and lower.

So I'm moving more towards a default of "Show me a reason I should deal with a woman first" before I expend the effort of getting to know one ( a lot of young men think like this too, they just get shown more flirtation by women)

In fact, I say enjoy them while you're young, it's far, far less work as your attention supports their vanity, while after a certain age it is neutral or even "eeeew that old guy hit on me."

[It_is_my_time]

(09-25-2015 05:52 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(09-24-2015 09:46 PM)Vanguard Wrote:  

(09-24-2015 09:31 PM)manly5000 Wrote:  

Can somebody explain the hatred that this community has for MGTOW, and vice versa? Because it doesn't make any fucking sense to me.

I hadn't heard of them before starting this thread, but after doing some reading, I think I somewhat understand what they're trying to do and why it's so harmful.

It appears they believe feminism has destroyed the entire female race and that it's impossible for a man to have a relationship with one. Because of this, they advocate for all men to end their relationships and become social exiles.

Nah, you've got me wrong at least. I'm older and am not advocating anything for anyone but myself.

If you're YoungTallCool enough such that the cost/benefit analysis makes it worth it to deal with women socially, more power to you.

What you'll find as you get older (especially past 55-60) and are not rich and/or famous is that the ROI of dealing with women gets lower and lower.

So I'm moving more towards a default of "Show me a reason I should deal with a woman first" before I expend the effort of getting to know one ( a lot of young men think like this too, they just get shown more flirtation by women)

In fact, I say enjoy them while you're young, it's far, far less work as your attention supports their vanity, while after a certain age it is neutral or even "eeeew that old guy hit on me."

Yes, exactly.

Plus men who are older are used to ladies. That means women who act feminine, talk feminine, give feminine body language, and dress like ladies dress. That is what we learned to find attractive at a young age.

So not only are the women way too much effort for us, and they have nothing to offer in return, most of them are not attractive. They talk like sailors, set like football players, dress like a mix of a prostitute and a 12 year old, and they have no feminine qualities of nurturing.

I feel awful for men born after 1980, especially 1985.

[ManVsMachine]

(09-25-2015 05:42 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

Quote:

That was stupid Winston, stupid! You should know better than to say a thing like that!

As do you. The goal is NOT to restrain male sexuality, but to ensure that male sexual energy is wasted and dissipated....hence the reason they've been pushing pornography and male masturbation aids.

It's about disempowering males, because every example in history of an effective rebellion was the result of alpha males banding together when the time was right. When you feminize the males, depriving them of their aggression and getting them to deplete their masculine energy into a napkin(or a fleshlight, or a sexbot) you make them more submissive and ensure that they will embrace their role as slaves.

So no. Expect the elite to embrace the spread of sexbots and help it along.

Flame bait? Cute quote, but doesn't work here. The notion that some intangible "masculine energy" is "depleted" from masturbation has been disproven by science time and time again (sources cited in article):

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...2_sex.html
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/10/health/sex-athletes/


There are minimal benefits to abstinence (complete abstinence):
http://examine.com/faq/does-ejaculation-...ne-levels/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11760788
But those effects drop off after a period of time (note acute as opposed to chronic abstinence)


I mean, if you want to take the Eastern or "Natural" medicine argument, there is the Taoist concept of jing that is depleted on finishing:
http://www.askdrmao.com/questions-and-an...le-energy/
, but scientists have also found that prolonged periods of abstinence ( > 3 months) actually drop your levels (see source cited in Nat'l Geographic link)



And the notion that who (or what, lol) you have sex with "feminizes" you is a laughable one at best. Honestly, there are more valid conspiracy theories in the BPA/xenoestrogens in your food, water, and plastics has created a greater attribution to a generational drop in testosterone levels.

[Easy_C]

(09-25-2015 06:54 PM)ManVsMachine Wrote:  

Flame bait? Cute quote, but doesn't work here. The notion that some intangible "masculine energy" is "depleted" from masturbation has been disproven by science time and time again (sources cited in article):

Step 1: Go to the lifestyle sub forum.

Step 2: Read the "nofap" thread and look at the results other dudes have had as soon as they stopped masturbating.

Quote:

There are minimal benefits to abstinence (complete abstinence):
http://examine.com/faq/does-ejaculation-...ne-levels/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11760788
But those effects drop off after a period of time (note acute as opposed to chronic abstinence)

You're setting up a convenient strawman founded in a false dilemma fallacy.

No, your options are not just complete abstinence or masturbation. You'd know better than that from experience if you had the discipline to quit jacking off.

[Easy_C]

Also even Roosh is with me on this:

http://www.rooshv.com/the-male-thirst-ep...ed-by-porn

[ManVsMachine]

(09-25-2015 07:25 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

(09-25-2015 06:54 PM)ManVsMachine Wrote:  

Flame bait? Cute quote, but doesn't work here. The notion that some intangible "masculine energy" is "depleted" from masturbation has been disproven by science time and time again (sources cited in article):

Step 1: Go to the lifestyle sub forum.

Step 2: Read the "nofap" thread and look at the results other dudes have had as soon as they stopped masturbating.

So, YMMV. Gotcha. For me, my peak hunting range is 3-6 days after, no more, no less. Irrelevant.


This is where things get amusing:

(09-25-2015 07:25 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

Quote:

There are minimal benefits to abstinence (complete abstinence):
http://examine.com/faq/does-ejaculation-...ne-levels/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11760788
But those effects drop off after a period of time (note acute as opposed to chronic abstinence)

You're setting up a convenient strawman founded in a false dilemma fallacy.

No, your options are not just complete abstinence or masturbation. You'd know better than that from experience if you had the discipline to quit jacking off.

Ok, its clear you didn't read the links I provided, nor did you read my post, because they do not paint the situation as being "black or white." In fact, "false dilemma fallacy" couldn't be further from the truth. Testosterone, which, I'm led to believe is a fundamental element of your abstract concept of "masculine energy", is in a state of flux. I even provided an NIH study which concluded that testosterone levels increase after an acute period of abstinence.

If you find "masculine energy" to be something else, clarify it. Latin only shows me you know how to read Wikipedia.

A false dilemma fallacy is defined as: "A false dilemma is a type of informal fallacy that involves a situation in which only limited alternatives are considered, when in fact there is at least one additional option. The opposite of this fallacy is argument to moderation."


Not only is your Latin scarcely applicable, but also consider the fact that man's relationship with his testosterone is far more complex than to be painted black or white - which my sources have validated.



Moreover, the "strawman" claim is completely wrong. You claimed the following:

Quote:

, but to ensure that male sexual energy is wasted and dissipated....hence the reason they've been pushing pornography and male masturbation aids.

It's about disempowering males, because every example in history of an effective rebellion was the result of alpha males banding together when the time was right. When you feminize the males, depriving them of their aggression and getting them to deplete their masculine energy into a napkin(or a fleshlight, or a sexbot) you make them more submissive and ensure that they will embrace their role as slaves.

So no. Expect the elite to embrace the spread of sexbots and help it along.

Your main assertion is that depleting "masculine energy" into a napkin, you make them more submissive. Their[the "elites"] goal is to feminize the males to avoid rebellion, No?


My entire post, above, argues against this concept of a loss of masculine energy. And I didn't disagree that reducing male power is a goal - we present two different implementations as such. It is equally a "false dilemma fallacy" to believe that men with sexbots will relegate themselves to a basement 24/7.


If you're going to throw around logical fallacies, use them appropriately. It also helps to provide substance to your post.



And this is where things get hilarious:

(09-25-2015 07:29 PM)Easy_C Wrote:  

Also even Roosh is with me on this:

http://www.rooshv.com/the-male-thirst-ep...ed-by-porn

Ah, a reductio ab Rooshum. Roosh "is with me" therefore it must be true. Unfortunately...... we must be reading a different article.

Why would men be thirsty if their sexual energy is depleted in a napkin? Did you even read Roosh's assertions here? I quote:

Quote:

The reason should be clear: porn is creating the thirst.

He argues:
1) Men are so desperate for sex in the current sexual market that they are seeking lower quality women (irrelevant with a sexbot).
2) The countless hours of video porn men watch create a demand for fast, and easy sex (contrary to your argument).
3) Regularly beating off to girls performing slutty acts will cause you seek out the low-quality women who can provide you with the sex you watch, lowering your standards

Oh wait.....

Quote:

This is why male thirst is getting worse every year, and the arrival of virtual porn or sex bots will not at all reduce the thirst problem like many believe, but actually increase it.

With that sexual energy they supposedly lost in a napkin?

[Easy_C]

Quote:

Your main assertion is that depleting "masculine energy" into a napkin, you make them more submissive. Their[the "elites"] goal is to feminize the males to avoid rebellion, No?

That is a...what do we call it? Entirely missing the point. You've mistaken the specific for the general. Men being hooked on masturbation and porn is only one of many ways to keep a population submissive. Drugs, excessive availability of alcohol, destruction of the family, etc. all go along with it.

So you tell me? Is a man who goes home and self satisfies with a sexbot more or less likely to challenge the bully mob of SJWs(aka useful idiots) than someone who isn't?

Quote:

With that sexual energy they supposedly lost in a napkin?

and THAT is what we call missing the point.

Quote:

Ah, a reductio ab Rooshum. Roosh "is with me" therefore it must be true. Unfortunately...... we must be reading a different article.

Why would men be thirsty if their sexual energy is depleted in a napkin? Did you even read Roosh's assertions here? I quote:

Of course I did. You're deliberately obfuscating one of Roosh's most important points that he has made repeatedly since getting into the business: that a thirsty man is the exact opposite of an Alpha Male. With relatively few exceptions thirsty men are not the ones getting laid. They're the idiots and manginas who are like the poor fool I saw today that was the only man sitting in on a "women of ****" event being held out in the plaza.

And again, here's the main point: are men who are cooped up in their basements living off of porn and sexpots much of a threat to the establishment's power?




So for you personally, it looks like I've struck a nerve. You might wanna look deep inside and ask WHY you get so easily butthurt and lash out like a woman when someone criticizes masturbation.

My guess?

[RBerkley]

I understand about the reasons a guy in cities such as Toronto would "give up on dating women", but I do get worried when guys say that "all women are the same". Sometimes, I had to tell guys just visit Mexico or move out from whatever feminist hellhole you are residing at, and notice the difference.

One guy actually made the decision to leave his gynocentric suburban area to stay in Mexico, and the results he had was a huge improvement in his life.

[rpg]

Feminism wants most men to go gay. MGTOW is half way down that path. Fuck that!
I work with a ton of women, more than probably most men. Given that, I have made a few observations. The truly ardent feminists are few and easily spotted and heard from a distance. Stay the fuck away from them at all costs. Most women are beta bitch sheep following the herd. No clue what they are doing and wonder why their lives are shit. You have to be able to size them up and adjust your interaction to profit from it. THAT is where this forum and the manosphere comes in. It has saved my ass every day.
I work with 2 newlywed women and they resent the fuck out of their beta husbands. These NEWLYWEDS are already flirting with other guys and heading for disaster. The redpill would have armed these new husbands if they were exposed and had enough time to internalize it.
Every guy with time should be in the clubs on a weekly basis scoping the scene and maximizing opportunities. Cultural recon. It is war guys! Stay sharp.
Never check out.

[Kizman]

I spent a lot of time on the MGTOW forums last yr, but I learnt more from RVF about self-improvement in a shorter time period than on MGTOW. I have nothing against them because their not my enemies, but it gets depressing after a while reading the same ol' "fuck society" theme that seems to be common there.

Like QC said earlier, it's very easy to get stuck into self-defeating attitude with all the anti-male propaganda in the west.. and a lot of males can't get their shit together. RVF has helped me take more initiative in my life, and I'm grateful I found this site.