[Biologist]

This is very sad news, but I think the reasons as to why this is happening are quite clear.

The way I see it is that there are two main factors at play:

1) Technology: dating/hookup apps and websites, coupled with the prevalence of smartphones, means that women can get get cock whenever they want. They don't need to waste their money and time going out to fish for guys to fuck. This means that less women are going out to nightclubs, and of course, this leads to less men going out as well (guys will often avoid going out to venues if they know that ratios are bad).

2) Less disposable income: middle and lower income earners have less disposable income than they did 10 years ago. They simply cannot afford to go out to nightclubs as often as they used to (maybe they cannot afford going out at all).

[Foolsgo1d]

I am still a firm believer in the here and now beating the likes of Tinder. A girl can go cold or rationalize their matches but when that McStudley is right in front of her he can get the upper hand. Unless she is socially retarded.

[Teedub]

(08-10-2015 10:36 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

For single young guys they are looking at a steep wall to climb. I wouldn't want to be a single young man at 18 today unless I was very photogenic for online game. For the other 95% of men, mass cold approaching won't be effective nor will most bar game unless he is willing to spend an ungodly amount of time mastering the cold approach against technology that is increasingly alienating people into virtual worlds. He's basically forced into social circle game to get above-average women which places him at the mercy of his SJW friends in school. He's fucked to try and do things like we once did, approach chicks at bars, clubs, or streets non-stop. Doing that in the future will probably just get you recorded by some dude's night vision smartphone then uploaded to facebook for people to blacklist you from other bars. The cockblocks will be virtual but they will still be real. All of this is a function of decreasing amounts of young women being pursued by an ever larger single-male demographic.

I liked it then Sammy, and I liked it now. Wise words, and probably very prophetic.

[Phoenix]

(08-10-2015 01:34 PM)N°6 Wrote:  

Dangerously loud music (shown to create anxiety and a sense of isolation to cause people to drink more) makes socialising impossible

That's interesting. Do you have any sources for this? I'm aware that clubs are basically moderately savvy businessmen preying on hordes of clueless young men, so this wouldn't surprise me.

[RawGod]

Structural change. I still feel almost the same person I was in 2005 - but better - yet society has changed a lot.

[StrikeBack]

(08-11-2015 06:14 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(08-10-2015 01:34 PM)N°6 Wrote:  

Dangerously loud music (shown to create anxiety and a sense of isolation to cause people to drink more) makes socialising impossible

That's interesting. Do you have any sources for this? I'm aware that clubs are basically moderately savvy businessmen preying on hordes of clueless young men, so this wouldn't surprise me.

I don't have any source handy, but I heard the exact same thing quoted by a friend of my mum who used to be a popular club DJ back in the 80s when club owners first learned of this research. Since then, it's been a race to higher and higher decibels.

Regarding the topic, I think it's similar in Australia. While night clubs have gone down in numbers, bars with equally loud music and a lot more seats (thus making approaches a thousand times harder, particularly with girls all going out in mixed groups) are now everywhere. Similarly, small restaurants, desert / appetizer places have mushroomed all over my city, and there are significantly more cute girls in those (usually on a date or with a group of girls) than live music venues or night clubs that I've been to lately. They are all venues where people get to spend lots of money among groups of people they already know, and terrible for meeting and socialising with new people.

[N°6]

(08-11-2015 06:14 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(08-10-2015 01:34 PM)N°6 Wrote:  

Dangerously loud music (shown to create anxiety and a sense of isolation to cause people to drink more) makes socialising impossible

That's interesting. Do you have any sources for this? I'm aware that clubs are basically moderately savvy businessmen preying on hordes of clueless young men, so this wouldn't surprise me.

Here's the abstract to what I believe was the original study by a French professor.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.11...3FC.f04t01

More: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=...drink+more
Other studies found that poor interior design increased aggression among customers too.

[spokepoker]

Take those old broken down empty post-night club locations and turn them into Gentlemen's Clubs.
Nice easy background music, don't need to invest in huge speaker system.
Warm polished wood furniture, deep faux leather seats.
Bouncer keeps the bitches out.
Is indoor smoking outlawed in Britain? Are cigar/pipe lounges an exception?

[roberto]

Cigar lounges exist, but smoking indoors in any public place is banned.

[TigerMandingo]

I like the idea of these gentlemen's clubs. And smoking needs to make a comeback too. Men were men and women were women before the anti-smoking Nazis made it practically illegal.

[Sonoma]

In San Francisco the bars are alive and well- few cover charges, relatively cheap drinks and a lot of young people.

On a racial note-
One thing I've noticed that kind of dooms a club is when an abundance of black people go, and after that the white people tend to not show up as much. I've stepped into black clubs before that tend to come across as ghetto, with a lot of staring and a lot of dudes kind of sitting around eyeing the few women in the room. Compare that to one of my favorite dive bars, which is often short on women, but has cheap drinks and a lot of dudes getting hammered giving zero fucks about the ratio

[rudebwoy]

I think the biggest thing is the economy, clubs tend to run on the money men spend on them. Less men working means less money for non-essential stuff like clubs.
Women in general never spend money in nightclubs, not when they know some bouncer will let them in for free or some chump will buy them a drink or two.
Partying in London, is very expensive. For what I pay on a night out, I could miss a few weekends and with the money plan a nice getaway in Europe. This would yield me much better results.

[NewMeta]

(08-13-2015 10:58 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I think the biggest thing is the economy, clubs tend to run on the money men spend on them. Less men working means less money for non-essential stuff like clubs.
Women in general never spend money in nightclubs, not when they know some bouncer will let them in for free or some chump will buy them a drink or two.
Partying in London, is very expensive. For what I pay on a night out, I could miss a few weekends and with the money plan a nice getaway in Europe. This would yield me much better results.

^ the money issue is huge. Over the course of a year, if you're a regular clubber you are spending hundreds of £ which couldve actually amounted to a decent holiday in Eastern Europe or wherever your favourite place is. And all you had to do was not be a pisshead every week of the year.

It's a shame I still enjoy going out on a night out, just not in the UK, when I travel abroad though, especially hotter, cheaper countries it's way more fun.

Pub's are still great I think, its got some pros:

1. Music is not as loud so you can actually talk.
2. Beer gardens are fun to hangout in during the summer.
3. No entry fee.
4. Generally lower cost of beer (generally).
5. Doesn't close late, if you like getting up early such as myself you aren't tempted to stay out for as long as possible.

[zatara]

There are a number of factors at work:

- More people hooking up via Tinder or similar, so not as desperate to go out to the club. Its usually the single people in any group who push it to the club.
- Less disposable income, so people are less likely to spend £10+ cover. House parties/pubs are so much cheaper
- And a more subtle one: Ibiza's megaclubs becoming more mainstream + very cheap EU flights means a LOT more people under 30 have experienced it at least once. Or have experienced world class clubs elsewhere in the world. Once you experience a world class club its very, very hard to justify going out to your local basement room "club".

It's basically an evolve or die situation. Clubs need to start offering value to justify their premium cost over pubs - better venues, better sound systems, better light shows etc. The days of whats basically a pub with darker lighting charging £10 cover are dying. This is a good thing.

[Kieran]

I don't really agree. Nightlife has just shifted away from being about the big clubs to being more about the smaller gastro-pubs, cocktail bars, etc. People are still going out - girls are still going out.

[N°6]

If I was a developer who was interested in nightlife, my money would be on the cocktail bar.

I have noticed that the gender ratios are good in cocktail bars and the staff consist mostly of skilled and semi-skilled men. A couple of such clubs have opened near me but I am surprised that none has the 1960s cocktail bar look to capitalise from Mad Men.

As for gentlemen's clubs, I wonder if they would fall foul of sexual discrimination laws because women want to join clubs that won't have them while those who do tend to become cock-fests.

[SlickyBoy]

(08-11-2015 06:14 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(08-10-2015 01:34 PM)N°6 Wrote:  

Dangerously loud music (shown to create anxiety and a sense of isolation to cause people to drink more) makes socialising impossible

That's interesting. Do you have any sources for this? I'm aware that clubs are basically moderately savvy businessmen preying on hordes of clueless young men, so this wouldn't surprise me.

Here you go, it's apparently got some legs.

Quote:

Commercial venues are very aware of the effects that the environment -- in this case, music -- can have on in-store traffic flow, sales volumes, product choices, and consumer time spent in the immediate vicinity. A study of the effects of music levels on drinking in a bar setting has found that loud music leads to more drinking in less time.

[SlickyBoy]

(08-13-2015 08:47 AM)Sonoma Wrote:  

In San Francisco the bars are alive and well- few cover charges, relatively cheap drinks and a lot of young people.

There are plenty of great cocktail bars, but most of that action revolves around social circle game. The gaming aspect of SF has been done to death in other threads, but suffice it to say it isn't the best city - SoCal is much better.

I think clubs generally are dying a slow death, at least in the west. Once upon a time, you could go to any city where you didn't know anyone, have your game wired tight, hit a club and stand a good chance of a ONS or at least a couple of numbers. Definitely not the case now in ManFrancisco, where the clubs truly suck. Same problems - way too many guys, overpriced cover charges, rip off bottle $ervice, ridiculously loud (and often bad) music with prison guard bouncers. When only 25-30% of the crowd is female and half of them brought boyfriends, it just isn't worth it.

[N°6]

(08-14-2015 01:10 AM)SlickyBoy Wrote:  

(08-13-2015 08:47 AM)Sonoma Wrote:  

In San Francisco the bars are alive and well- few cover charges, relatively cheap drinks and a lot of young people.

There are plenty of great cocktail bars, but most of that action revolves around social circle game. The gaming aspect of SF has been done to death in other threads, but suffice it to say it isn't the best city - SoCal is much better.

I think clubs generally are dying a slow death, at least in the west. Once upon a time, you could go to any city where you didn't know anyone, have your game wired tight, hit a club and stand a good chance of a ONS or at least a couple of numbers. Definitely not the case now in ManFrancisco, where the clubs truly suck. Same problems - way too many guys, overpriced cover charges, rip off bottle $ervice, ridiculously loud (and often bad) music with prison guard bouncers. When only 25-30% of the crowd is female and half of them brought boyfriends, it just isn't worth it.

People - especially women - in the West don't talk to strangers in bars often. I think developers should look to Meet Up which bring in groups of people who don't know each other but who clearly want to.

[Fortis]

I think this is a good thing: for too long clubs have treated people like cattle and people are wising up. Why go to a club full of obnoxious bouncers, rude bartenders and unfriendly people when you can hop on tinder and have a date that night (depending on your region)?

Now, I think the bigger issue is that social venues overall are on the decline. I go out in china and you will see tables full of people on their cellphones not talking. That is fucking insane.

[rotekz]

The quality and originality of electronic dance music has been nosediving since the late 90's. I used to club/dj a lot but it lost the magic post 2000. Maybe I just got old but for me the golden age of UK clubbing was '89 to mid 90's.

[Lucario]

(08-11-2015 09:02 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

(08-11-2015 06:14 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(08-10-2015 01:34 PM)N°6 Wrote:  

Dangerously loud music (shown to create anxiety and a sense of isolation to cause people to drink more) makes socialising impossible

That's interesting. Do you have any sources for this? I'm aware that clubs are basically moderately savvy businessmen preying on hordes of clueless young men, so this wouldn't surprise me.

I don't have any source handy, but I heard the exact same thing quoted by a friend of my mum who used to be a popular club DJ back in the 80s when club owners first learned of this research. Since then, it's been a race to higher and higher decibels.

Regarding the topic, I think it's similar in Australia. While night clubs have gone down in numbers, bars with equally loud music and a lot more seats (thus making approaches a thousand times harder, particularly with girls all going out in mixed groups) are now everywhere. Similarly, small restaurants, desert / appetizer places have mushroomed all over my city, and there are significantly more cute girls in those (usually on a date or with a group of girls) than live music venues or night clubs that I've been to lately. They are all venues where people get to spend lots of money among groups of people they already know, and terrible for meeting and socialising with new people.

In my opinion, I think it has everything to do with feminism and that internet/tinder/social media are just a symptom and not a root cause. It is just messed up that a people, especially women can be so socially retarded that they would prefer to meet a man over the internet rather than socially.

For example, when I went to Sydney, I found much better ratios and a better night scene, and Brisbane is predominantly a night scene based place with way better ratios than Melb.

I know girls with smart phones, but they still have solid social skills and don't even meet guys with a smart phone, and not surprisingly they are red pill and don't subscribe to feminism and SJW BS.

[The Beast1]

Going on a limb here, but at least stateside the music they're playing is trash. EDM in 2015 is by far the most unoriginal music.

Lets throw in a beat drop in with some female chick overtop of it. No real discernible melody or harmony. And to top it off you need to be super wasted to enjoy the music.

Garix, deadmua5, and Tiesto have ruined club and house music.

[Kieran]

^ Always amazes me that a country with such an amazing history of dance music (Detroit Techno, Chicago House) could be into such shite.

[mogsy]

(08-10-2015 01:34 PM)N°6 Wrote:  

I find myself without sympathy for UK nightclubs:

*Staff treating people as prison inmates rather than customers;
*Horrendous gender imbalances
*Packing in people as much as the fire officer allows;
*Overpriced cover and drink charges
*Clubs tend to harm daytime businesses and neighbouring residences
*Dangerously loud music (shown to create anxiety and a sense of isolation to cause people to drink more) makes socialising impossible

Did you read my mind or did we goto the same places, if neither of these then it must mean this really is happening all over the UK!

The cost of rent/rates to run a small bar/nightclub is a real profit killer so before even adding in the staff wages of people it makes it very difficult to break a profit without keeping the entry fees/drink prices high. For the people who own the buildings, it may become more profitable for the buildings owner to turn the buildings into residential property and sell it off or rent it out as apartments.

The real problem I see is that the majority of nightlife businesses are set out to be make as much money as possible in the quickest amount of time, there seems to be a mentality of get rich quick in most of these bars/nightclubs, taking advantage of the situation of lack of competition. Fair enough but the customer experience in these sorts of places are usually awful, I am sure that some clubs don't want people hooking up and talking so they design people to look at the dance floor and make the music too loud to talk, so they drink more and come back next week

People have definitely changed the way that they interact with others, now with people spending hours on social media feeling that they are connected and getting their fix when someone of the opposite sex likes their post, it can easily entertain people and encourage them not to leave their house or their bed and smartphone. Tinder is another fad and like online dating its popularity will fade just like when friends reunited was a way for people to connect, now its almost impossible not to be able to connect with people you know, whether this is good or bad is down to the individuals perspective.

Summary
-Security staff aren't friendly and often strict
-Bars are overcrowded and understaffed
-Expensive and poor value compared to europe
-Majority are oversized and not so attractive women or ladettes
-Hotter girls get their egos boosted too much by beta guys
-Clubs seem to be designed to encourage people to not talk and just get drunk
-People are glued to their smartphones thinking about being anywhere but where they are