[Off The Reservation]

What signs have you personally observed that tip you off that someone is lying? Whether in business, with a girl, family, etc...

I will start with one that I have personally picked up on. Even numbers.

Most of the time someone uses very even numbers to establish a value I have found that they are lying. Examples:

I am in sales and I a making 100K.

I have never met someone who makes 100K which is 8333 a month. Everyone who has said this to me was making more like 40-60. However if someone said to me "last year I made 135" it is far less likely they were lying.

My company is worth 20 million
Same as above vs someone who says "based on last years earnings before interest and taxes using a 3 times EBIT multiplier we are currently valued at 12.4 million."

I have only been with 5 guys.
There is a post about this here.
Nice even number = lie here.

What signs or tells have you noticed tip you off that a person is lying?

[Cr33pin]

It posses a vagina

[Suits]

I neatly round off numbers all the time when I'm not lying.

[brob]

I've read that when you lie, you look up and to the left to to engage the creative side of your brain to fabricate the lie. And when you speak the truth, you look up and to the right to engage the memory recall part of your brain.

However, a google search will show there's been a lot of studies to prove this is actually a myth.

^^I like Cr33pin's method of detecting liars.

In my experience, if I see a person lying or exaggerating to others then I immediately take notice of this and become skeptical of anything the person tells me going forward. The more frequently you observe them lying or exaggerating to others, the more frequently they probably do the same to you. I've had drinking buddies and other acquaintances who are like this.

[blck]

Quote:

I've read that when you lie, you look up and to the left to to engage the creative side of your brain to fabricate the lie. And when you speak the truth, you look up and to the right to engage the memory recall part of your brain.

That's some expert FBI shit, as the conversation progress you won't be able to notice every subtleties.
The fact is that professional liars & mythomaniacs can't get caught because of how many times they repeat the process, it basically became like a reflex.

Anyway when you lie your brain has to activate to create the story so you won't be able to lie and sustain an other activity while doing it, maybe that's an easier trick to throw

[teh_skeeze]

Another way to tell is if they play poker and/or fish. I should know, I do both.

[Captainstabbin]

(07-19-2015 10:30 AM)brob Wrote:  

I've read that when you lie, you look up and to the left to to engage the creative side of your brain to fabricate the lie. And when you speak the truth, you look up and to the right to engage the memory recall part of your brain.

There are voice stress analysis apps for your phone that allow you to see if someone is lying in real time. It's about 70% effective.



My biggest one is, when someone is lying, they seem to be trying to convince me rather than just tell me. Every time they make a point, they'll look up to seem if I'm convinced or not, even nodding their head in an attempt to coax an agreement nod out of me.

[jimukr104]

(07-19-2015 10:21 AM)Suits Wrote:  

I neatly round off numbers all the time when I'm not lying.

Yeah I didn't get that either. Most are going to round up, especially in USA where talking about salary is touchy to begin with.

If I make close to 100k, which I did, I will say 100k! I am not going to get specific.

[Biz]

I think intuition plays a roll here. I can tell if someone is lying or exaggerating pretty easily just by following my intuition, I feel like it's pretty accurate.

[Emancipator]

(07-19-2015 01:32 PM)Biz Wrote:  

I think intuition plays a roll here. I can tell if someone is lying or exaggerating pretty easily just by following my intuition, I feel like it's pretty accurate.

Bullshit radar goes off just depending on the person's body language and speech.

[Tengen]

[OGNorCal707]

Some tells from body language are people that can't or won't look you in the eye when they are telling you something, that's probably the most obvious and dead give away, some people are awkward with eye contact, but if a you confront someone about something and they can't look you in the eye when they talk to you there's a good chance they are lying.

Another body language clue are people that "self touch" while telling a lie or about to tell a lie, people do this when they are nervous or in an uncomfortable situation, it is supposed to be a sub conscious way of a person to comfort themselves, if you happen to notice a person that touches their neck or their face, this can be a clue that they are lying.

Also eyes are windows to the soul, does a person's eyes look empty like their is no feeling, emotion, truth, or honesty behind them? Do their pupils contract or dilate when you breach an uncomfortable subject. Guys on here are talking about the angle and direction that someone looks, if I remember correctly in one of the body language books I read, supposedly looking down and at an angle is a result of someone who feels guilty or ashamed of something, which can play into lying, if the person who is lying feels any sense of guilt.

Sometimes people have unconcious behaviors that give themselves away, such as shaking their head no, but saying yes when you ask them a question, like asking your roommate if he watered your houseplant, he says yes, but very slightly shakes his head as if to say no without even realizing it.

Beyond physical signs from body language you have to look at peoples stories and whether they add up, or whether their words match their actions and behaviors. I mistakingly got mixed up in a business partnership with a guy who I believe to be a text book case of cluster B personality disorders (narcissistic and anti-social), at first I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but as time progressed I began to see that his grand stories were nothing more than fictional lies that he told with the conviction that only a true sociopath, narcissist, or borderline can pull off.

When you're dealing with people on that level, they are master liars, they tell lies with such conviction that it's rare to be able to decipher any clues solely from their body language, facial expressions, etc. You have to go with your gut, and really see if their words add up.

[CleanSlate]

I watch the eyes.

But I don't really take much stock into the left/right indicators like the pic several posts above.

For one thing, the person could be left-handed and the whole thing would be reversed, throwing you off entirely.

Second, good liars KNOW their eye movements could give it away, so they learn to control them. But you can detect lies by the way they keep their eyes still. After they tell a lie, they stare at you with glazed over eyes in an effort to control their eye movements in hopes of convincing you that they're telling the truth.

Or... they could just look away and fidget, acting all nonchalant and it's no big deal.

Either way, filter out all the noise and listen to your gut.

[birthday cat]

I have some experience with this and I once had several discussions with a respected body language expert.

(07-19-2015 01:32 PM)Biz Wrote:  

I think intuition plays a roll here. I can tell if someone is lying or exaggerating pretty easily just by following my intuition, I feel like it's pretty accurate.

This is correct. It is what I was taught is the most important thing to consider and more important than any 'tells'. Your brain has processed many thousands of interactions with people and your unconscious mind has somewhat of an inventory of those interactions and how things turned out. Your unconscious mind knows things that your conscious mind isn't aware of so your gut feeling exists for a reason, it isn't random. Trust your gut. If you have a weird feeling that someone is trying to deceive you then you are probably right about 70 to 80% or the time.

Another indicator is over-explaining or under-explaining. People will frequently talk too much and give more details when they are lying. They could also do the opposite but I've found it more common to pick up on over-explaining than under-explaining.

I think body language 'tells' can sometimes be overrated unless you have studied body language extensively. They are complex and you'll usually want to see multiple inconsistencies. Anyways, it is important to get a baseline of the person's body language and then look for differences. For example, a common tell is someone putting their hand over their mouth when they talk but that won't mean anything if that person always puts their hand over their mouth when they talk. A liar might move their eyes in an unusual way but it must be in a different way than normal. Some people won't ever look you in the eye when they are talking to you.

[Engineer]

Depends on the context and how you know this person, but you could ask them questions that you already know the answer to. Compare their response to "the truth".

"I always tell the truth. Even when I lie." - Tony Montana

[Dalaran1991]

Tough to say.

I study Social Psychology and while there are scientific backup for this shit, in practice this is an art. IMO detecting liar is really an "all or nothing" situation.

I assumed, with the average player of this forum being so calibrated and well versed in social cues, you can very easily tell when other people are bullshitting through subtle obvious cues such as being nervous, speaking more softly, fidgeting, intonation and body language. In most cases all you need is a slight dose of common sense. If you think somebody is lying, ask them a conspicuous question about a detail their story and the truth will out quickly.

Ex:
-Faggot: I make xxxxxx a year!
-You: Nice. How much of that is bonus?/How much do you pay in taxes?

He will have to stumble and think because he's expecting you to praise and get impressed or shit. That is easy to see.

But I've run into people who have mastered the art of manipulation and weaving alternate realities. Some bitches out there are actually so fucked up not only do they lie to other people but also to themselves, to the point they actually believe their own lies.

Some people are so good at story telling and being charismatic, they can easily fool you, not because you are a fool, but by using misdirection. Funny, these are all skills the best players I know have.

In general, if the person has a deeper understanding than you in a particular field, its also much tougher to call the bluff.

I prefer to trust my intuition. Some people are just really charming but you always get this strange uneasy feeling about them. That sometimes its the best tell.

[Easy_C]

As a lot of people have pointed out a high caliber sociopath can internalize their own lies so well that there won't be obvious "tells". They're also very good at catering their lies to what people want to hear.

Nonchalant follow up questions are, as pointed out, a good way to get more info on your end. It can knock them out of a prepared script which will cause some to stumble and others to throw out inconsistent information which you will hopefully notice. That said it's generally not a good idea to call them out on it particularly if it's a person you work with regularly. You can do better by setting "traps" for them which will force them to say one thing and then later contradict themselves. Remember it's not them you are trying to persuade or shame. You're simply trying to expose them in other people's eyes.


Also keep a close eye for details. I've dealt with a few pathological manipulators and one of the classic telltale signs is that they will spend inordinate amount of time uttering pleasant sounding platitudes but will rarely discuss specific events,ideas, numbers, dates, or so on. See: any Obama speech. We had a lady who got into a leadership position in a community organization I was a part of that way. I was able to get some of my friends to notice it when I pointed out the vapidity of some of her statements but she wasn't quite knocked off her perch due to some of the older and gullible (and quite frankly, not that bright) women involved in the club.

[Biz]

(07-20-2015 11:09 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

I study Social Psychology

I love reading about this subject. Do you have any sites or books on the subject you recommend?

(07-20-2015 11:09 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

But I've run into people who have mastered the art of manipulation and weaving alternate realities. Some bitches out there are actually so fucked up not only do they lie to other people but also to themselves, to the point they actually believe their own lies.

Some people are so good at story telling and being charismatic, they can easily fool you, not because you are a fool, but by using misdirection. Funny, these are all skills the best players I know have.

In general, if the person has a deeper understanding than you in a particular field, its also much tougher to call the bluff.

Do you think this can come with practice or does it come naturally to certain people?

[thedarkknight]

It's all about the gut. Your intuition has got you and ancestors to this moment. Ignore it at your peril.

[birthday cat]

(07-20-2015 11:09 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

But I've run into people who have mastered the art of manipulation and weaving alternate realities. Some bitches out there are actually so fucked up not only do they lie to other people but also to themselves, to the point they actually believe their own lies.

These are people with lying disorders which can be different than being a liar. These disorders usually develop in early childhood if a child is in an environment where they feel the need to lie. Their brains develop differently and are wired differently. It's quite sad because it isn't their fault but STAY AWAY from these people. Some are sociopaths. Some aren't sociopaths and they might be good moral people but they have psychological issues beyond their control. In either case stay away from these people because they will always cause serious problems.

The tells for these people are much harder to see. The tells may not exist because lying is natural for them and they lie to themselves so they feel like they are telling you the truth when they are not. One symptom of these kinds of problems is the liar will continue with their lie even after they have been caught. You might be pointing at their hand while it is in the cookie jar and they will be like "no my hand isn't in the cookie jar, that isn't even a cookie jar". It is creepy but when something like that happens and you are thinking WTF you are totally caught but the person just won't admit it, then it is probably a serious disorder.

[SunW]

I don't accept the body language "tells" at all, but it's always interesting to read people who do.

The way I determine if someone is a liar is by considering what they have to gain from what they're saying. This method may be less reliable, but is more important and pragmatic for the simple reason that it serves you little to weed out liars unless it's a situation where you could take a loss because someone lied. In those cases, though, it's better to know how someone could gain from their dishonesty. Also, trying to determine if someone is lying to you involves investment of effort on your part and you should be cautious as this can work against you.

Using a simple example that's popular in the manosphere: a girl tells you that she only slept with 2 other guys. What does she have to gain from that with you? Respect, trust, you opening up to her, etc. But why does it really matter to you if you don't intend to be in a serious relationship with that person ever (maybe serious relationships aren't your thing)? It doesn't; ultimately, whether she's telling the truth or not, she has nothing to gain even if it's a lie, if she's after something you won't provide. If you are the guy who wants to be in a serious relationship with a girl and you want a girl who's been with fewer guys, then you have to realize that your agenda is inherently going to put you at risk for liars. You want to spend little time asking them about things (really?) and more time observing how they behave; what's interesting here is how many men will ignore obvious contradictory behavior because they need to rationalize their liking of the girl.

In regards to business, let's say a person wants to start a business with you and you want to determine if they're honest. This isn't that hard (though we can all over think it): assign some easy work and see how reliable they are with it. If a person does exactly what they say, and they continue to do what they say, you've already found something rare. Most of us who've tried to start businesses know that 99%+ of the people we've tried with won't do what they say, no matter how simple it is. They'll have excuses about "I ran out of time" or "It was harder than I thought" or something else. Right off the bat, that person is being dishonest because honesty would be doing exactly what you say (the importance of under promising and over delivering).

This leads me to my final point: if it's a situation where honesty does matter (and these are rarer than knowing what a person has to gain by lying), observe their behavior instead of asking them questions or doing your own body language lie detector test. Honest people have solid behavior and it will show. They stand out; they're different; you can just tell that in some way they are not like others and this is all because of their behavior, not what they say.

Simply put for short attention spans: honesty is far less important than recognizing a person's agenda and seeing if it aligns with yours.

[Dalaran1991]

Quote:

I love reading about this subject. Do you have any sites or books on the subject you recommend?

Yeah I was very much into this stuff, but to save you time I recommend the 48 Laws of Power, which should be a must read anyway. Best book on the art of lying and manipulation, and in practice might as well be a game book.

I ll think up of a bibliography later, been a while since I graduated.

This could also be a good read for you. The counter to the Dark Triad man, and exemplifies the art of lying, manipulation and misdirection. For some reasons I run into these a lot... Helps to know thy enemies.

Lucifer daughters

Quote:

Do you think this can come with practice or does it come naturally to certain people?

I would say while some people have a better time lying than others, most come with practice.

In order for the lies to be successful/convincing, it need one or all of these conditions:


1-A strong conviction that your lie is justified
2-A strong belief that the lie itself is the truth
3-Absence of remorse or guilt
4-The lie is way more preferable to the ego than the truth.
5-Hedonistic desire derived from the lie.



Take the most typical of game example: flaking. All girls flake, and this is not a generalization given what I have seen. Almost all give stupid excuses/lie when flaking. Very few feel any guilt about it.

Girl believes that lying to you is justified because she has the right and that you are nothing to her, hence 1) She lies so as to avoid confrontation and responsibility, hence 4) She feels a rush of drama doing so, hence 5) Some of girls actually do tell themselves "well Im too lazy to get my ass out of the house to see him, so I must really be sick or busy" hence 2)

Have you ever wondered why girls just have to lie when they flake? For most men its much better that the girl tells them she is not interested, but girls just have to lie so as to protect their ego from hurt, and also to string the guy along.

Ive dealt with this shit so much now that when a girl actually tells the truth I feel a pleasant surprise.

If you really think about it, the most charming people are also the best liars. They just dont get caught, but think about the most charismatic guys/girls you know and you will feel that "something is not right about his charm" I was talking about. And then there are demagogues and politicians, but these are trained liars whose condition 1) is so deeply ingrained it becomes their reality.

Becoming a good liar is pure practice. Thats why the good cops I know all call bullshit on lie detector tests, those stuff are easy to fool. A razor-edge intuition is much more valuable here.

I strongly believe we must practice the art of manipulation and misdirection. For me the biggest disentchantment with the blue pill was when I discover that people simply do not like the Truth. They would much prefer to be told a sweet lie. Why do you think we consume so much mass media? Samseau can give you pretty big lessons on this, ping him.

[Beyond Borders]

I'm lying right now as I write this.

[el mechanico]

I can tell when someone is lying to me or being deceptive. Just take a look at my temp ban history.

Seriously though I tend to decipher the truth from lies naturally. I'll cut it short though and say " ok shut the fuck up with all that" then tell the person what I interpreted from the nonsense then carry forward.

[Beyond Borders]

^ Liar.