[scorpion]

Phoenix, this hasn't been a debate. This has been multiple posters pointing out your errors while you continue to talk nonsensically about a subject you clearly don't understand (i.e. comparing banking to renting tractors, equating banks to businessmen lending existing capital, failing to understand how central banking amplifies the damage caused by fractional reserve lending).

You're in a hole. Stop digging.

[Peregrine]

(07-12-2015 01:13 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

Phoenix, this hasn't been a debate. This has been multiple posters pointing out your errors while you continue to talk nonsensically about a subject you clearly don't understand (i.e. comparing banking to renting tractors, equating banks to businessmen lending existing capital, failing to understand how central banking amplifies the damage caused by fractional reserve lending).

You're in a hole. Stop digging.

Several posters have already expressed that they agree with Phoenix (e.g. Dismal Operator, SunW). I'd be one of them, but I've already experienced the futility of explaining banking to RVF.

[Easy E]

Eurozone Leaders Reach Unanimous Agreement on Greece, Says EU’s Tusk

http://www.wsj.com/articles/eurozone-lea...1436771076

Quote:

BRUSSELS—Eurozone leaders said early Monday that they would give Greece another bailout as long as the government of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras manages to implement a round of punishing austerity measures in the coming days.

“EuroSummit has unanimously reached agreement” Donald Tusk, who presided over the talks with leaders, said in a tweet. “All ready to go for ESM [European Stability Mechanism] programme for Greece with serious reforms & financial support.”

The tentative rescue deal—hammered out after 22 hours of at-times acrimonious negotiations between the currency union’s leaders and finance ministers—is likely to require a near-total surrender of the left-wing government to creditors’ demands.

In the coming days, Parliament in Athens has to pass pension overhauls and sales-tax increases that voters overwhelmingly rejected in a referendum just one week ago.

[Eskhander]

(07-13-2015 02:19 AM)Easy E Wrote:  

Eurozone Leaders Reach Unanimous Agreement on Greece, Says EU’s Tusk

http://www.wsj.com/articles/eurozone-lea...1436771076

Don't have subscription to WSJ. What are they doing?

[SamuelBRoberts]

You can always read a WSJ article by googling the title and clicking on the link.

"BRUSSELS—Eurozone leaders said early Monday that they would give Greece another bailout as long as the government of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras manages to implement a round of punishing austerity measures in the coming days."

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(07-13-2015 02:20 AM)Eskhander Wrote:  

(07-13-2015 02:19 AM)Easy E Wrote:  

Eurozone Leaders Reach Unanimous Agreement on Greece, Says EU’s Tusk

http://www.wsj.com/articles/eurozone-lea...1436771076

Don't have subscription to WSJ. What are they doing?

Quote:

BRUSSELS—Eurozone leaders said early Monday that they would give Greece another bailout as long as the government of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras manages to implement a round of punishing austerity measures in the coming days.

Our current economic model is just smoke and mirrors - they can impoverish a country simply by contraction of the money supply. Money in the current form is such a con.



It was clear that it would be something like that because the markets rebounded strongly before Sunday and even more now. Even the Chinese markets did so - in China it was more some kind of market manipulation which even let the US markets close. I noticed that some market makers in the EU were gone too as there was a lack of liquidity. But it wasn't really fundamental.



I think that they want to have full control over Greek finances and also get pretty much everything privatized.

Heh - at least the people got to vote in a meaningless gesture of defiance which absolutely had no sway in the real proceedings.

[Easy E]

(07-13-2015 02:33 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

I think that they want to have full control over Greek finances and also get pretty much everything privatized.

Yep. That is exactly what they want:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-12...o-time-out

[Eskhander]

So Tspiras did nothing. Wondering where he is going after this.
If it's a job in the EU well then we'll know.

Hard left fail. Only one option left...

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

Quote:

In the coming days, Parliament in Athens has to pass pension overhauls and sales-tax increases that voters overwhelmingly rejected in a referendum just one week ago.

And not a single European politician sees any contradiction about this?

[Eskhander]

I just realized, Germany has an Eagle as their emblem.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(07-13-2015 02:48 AM)Eskhander Wrote:  

I just realized, Germany has an Eagle as their emblem.

That's the only eagle that matters and it is based on usury - it has no allegiance to any nation despite Germany being used to pull the trigger here:

[Bushido]

Yet another bailout it is then.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33503955

Jesus they are making one huge mess of this and humiliating Greece in the process.

I was really hopeful that Greece were finally going to be put out of their misery.

See you in 2-3 years when the Greeks come back for even more.

These eurocrats are delaying the inevitable which is the total collapse of the Euro.

[Foolsgo1d]

I wonder what will happen when the people of Greece hear the penny drop and realise they were just fucked over not just by their government but the EU who they love.

[Dan Woolf]

----------------------------------------

[H1N1]

(07-13-2015 05:38 AM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

I wonder what will happen when the people of Greece hear the penny drop and realise they were just fucked over not just by their government but the EU who they love.

This is potentially a pretty damning indictment of the Greek people, if I've understood it correctly.

As far as I understand the situation, the Greek people were presented with a series of reforms that the EU said they needed to agree to to remain in the EU. The Greek people voted overwhelmingly to reject these measures. Their PM then went back to the EU to negotiate on behalf of his people, who refused to suffer further austerity, and to try to turn this public dissent into a bargaining chip for a better deal. The result of these discussions is that the Greeks now have to agree to far harsher, punitive measures than those they rejected in the first place, including essentially selling some of their national assets to the EU to fund the banks. Their country is essentially going to be part owned by the banks that created money out of nothing, who could not point to actual material loss. Essentially, not only must they suffer increased austerity, but they must also lose a degree of sovereignty, irreversibly given the scale of debt.

If this is not grounds for revolution, then I don't know what is. If instead we see a collective shrugging of the shoulders, and a pervading sentiment of 'oh well, we tried', then perhaps it will be time to abandon all hope for humanity.

I appreciate the above is a gross over simplification, but if I have understood it even half way correctly, this absolutely stinks. It is particularly galling as we appear to be heading for a similar end point as we would have been had we not fought WW1, and allowed the Weimar republic to continue unchecked.

[SunW]

(07-13-2015 05:33 AM)dreambig Wrote:  

Yet another bailout it is then.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33503955

Jesus they are making one huge mess of this and humiliating Greece in the process.

I was really hopeful that Greece were finally going to be put out of their misery.

See you in 2-3 years when the Greeks come back for even more.

These eurocrats are delaying the inevitable which is the total collapse of the Euro.

Not to say I told anyone so, but ...

(06-22-2015 04:56 PM)SunW Wrote:  

The only people making out like a bandit are the media. I'll believe that Greece will "default" when I see it because this story has been around for the past (at least) three years and nothing's happened. It's always a different angle that the media spin as a disaster and nothing happens.

Prediction: someone will kick the can down the road for a period of time (like a month), the media will stir the pot again when that period of time arrives, viewers of the media will get caught up in all the drama ("Oh my, what now!"), nothing will happen again, and the media will repeat again. I do wonder if some of these politicians directly make money off the media, giving them an inherent interest in stirring trouble for a period of time.

The media once again made out like bandits. Think of all the turmoil they managed to stir up when, in the end, Greece accepted another strict bailout ensuring more can-kicking.

The great news is that it gives those of us who want to be in an excellent position more time to prepare.

[Bushido]

(07-13-2015 05:57 AM)SunW Wrote:  

The great news is that it gives those of us who want to be in an excellent position more time to prepare.

Prepare how? How can we benefit from this coming black swan?

[Akula]

(07-13-2015 02:44 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Quote:

In the coming days, Parliament in Athens has to pass pension overhauls and sales-tax increases that voters overwhelmingly rejected in a referendum just one week ago.

And not a single European politician sees any contradiction about this?

EU leadership is corrupt as hell (and morally bankrupt) and all they care about is keeping the status quo as long as they can and devolving more power to them from the individual states. The will of the people be damned. Could it have been any worse than the way this played out though? What a bunch of ineffective, awful leadership in the EU. I guess maybe they were too busy trying to push gay rights and/or set up more bureaucracy for salad dressing and olive oil exports?

Global world government anyone?

I would be suprised if this doesn't cause some sort of mini-revolution in Greece. They got the same old deal they were offered in the first place pretty much, and their leaders once again sold them down the river, even after a "referendum." It's all a twisted sick joke really.

[Mike5055]

The deal they got now is worse than the one they could have taken before the referendum. This is ridiculous. So, we'll be right back here in a few years. I wonder if another one of the debt riddled nations will need a bailout too in that time?

We'll see how this goes in the Greek parliament. We'll see how many of them survive their next election.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

(07-13-2015 05:46 AM)Dan Woolf Wrote:  

They want to create the United States of Europe and they will cling to that goal until the bitter end.

I wouldn't have anything against the concept if the federal government was fair and competent. But the last 5 years have confirmed that they don't deserve even the tiniest amount of trust, let alone power. Fuck the EU and fuck its self-appointed slave-drivers.

[Paracelsus]

(07-13-2015 06:06 AM)dreambig Wrote:  

(07-13-2015 05:57 AM)SunW Wrote:  

The great news is that it gives those of us who want to be in an excellent position more time to prepare.

Prepare how? How can we benefit from this coming black swan?

The only people who are hurt when a currency hyperinflates - as the Greek currency was about to do, and as the US dollar eventually will do because nobody has enough funds to bail out the US - are those who are left holding that currency, or assets denominated in that currency, when the shit hits the fan.

Those who are holding assets whose value is not denominated in the hyperinflated currency do not lose money in real terms. This is why everyone who hasn't read deeply enough on the history of hyperinflation and capital controls keeps advising to buy gold: because it's historically a storer of value that people want.

Those who have read deeply on the subject understand that for that very reason, gold is the primary target of governments who want to stop people from getting out of their hyperinflated currency. You don't even need to leave US soil to get an example of this: consider Executive Order 6102, courtesy of FDR, which forced every American to turn over any gold he had to the US government when the Depression hit. Americans could not own gold again until the 1970s.

Half the problem is that when hyperinflation hits, everyone hits the exits at once trying to get rid of the shit currency they hold. This is also why tourists make out like bandits in hyperinflated countries - because they're holding a currency that actually means something. It's also why, sure as eggs, hoarders, preppers and those holding stockpiles of small consumer goods are regularly shamed by governments when a currency crisis arises - again, because barter is a way to get around the government's shit currency.

It's not inconceivable that, when the US dollar does eventually hyperinflate, the Mormons as a group are likely to do very well out of it - because it's almost a religious commandment among them that they have a solid supply of long term consumer goods, enough to last a good year. In hyperinflationary conditions, this becomes sheer wealth because they don't have to trade on the government's worthless dollars - and hyperinflation historically only lasts between 18 months and 3 years; it is not sustainable because eventually everyone shifts to the black market, barter, or to currencies which hold some value. Barter markets have kept people from starving in currency crises in tinpot South American currencies like that of Argentina (with currently a 20% inflation rate, thanks to its insanely generous pension and free education programs). Zimbabwe, for example, tried hyperinflation, forbidding people to own or hold US dollars, but they simply could not keep up the charade and eventually bowed to people trading in US dollars openly.

How you learn from it is this: the US dollar eventually will hyperinflate. Not tomorrow, maybe not in the next five years, but eventually it must. When it happens it will make the Depression and subprime look like little upticks in the market by comparison. The way you learn from it is to file quietly and calmly to the exits before other people smell the smoke and shout "Fire!" By then it will be too late. Do not attempt to change the system: the economic history of the US more or less proves all you can do is try and be an economic guerrilla and avoid being stomped on by the two major parties who are incompetent, intentionally malevolent towards you, or both. As with any other field of life: take responsibility for your own affairs.

[poutsara]

The Parthenon marbles have been sitting in the British Museum for about two centuries. Taken right before Greece became independent. Some of the most important works of art of antiquity, and arguably, all of Western Civilization.

How much is a 200 year lease worth? Perhaps 100 billion Euros - that should cover it.

[H1N1]

(07-13-2015 06:02 PM)poutsara Wrote:  

The Parthenon marbles have been sitting in the British Museum for about two centuries. Taken right before Greece became independent. Some of the most important works of art of antiquity, and arguably, all of Western Civilization.

How much is a 200 year lease worth? Perhaps 100 billion Euros - that should cover it.

We can probably arrange for them to be transferred straight to Germany for you, with all the rest of your stuff.

[poutsara]

(07-13-2015 06:11 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

(07-13-2015 06:02 PM)poutsara Wrote:  

The Parthenon marbles have been sitting in the British Museum for about two centuries. Taken right before Greece became independent. Some of the most important works of art of antiquity, and arguably, all of Western Civilization.

How much is a 200 year lease worth? Perhaps 100 billion Euros - that should cover it.

We can probably arrange for them to be transferred straight to Germany for you, with all the rest of your stuff.

Word. Sadly, this is not far from the truth.

[LeBeau]

(07-13-2015 06:06 AM)dreambig Wrote:  

(07-13-2015 05:57 AM)SunW Wrote:  

The great news is that it gives those of us who want to be in an excellent position more time to prepare.

Prepare how? How can we benefit from this coming black swan?

The fact that we're all talking about this as well as headlines being dominated by Greece means that the situation is absolutely not a black swan.