[CleanSlate]

Let's say you're in an LTR and she does and says all the right things. Takes care of you as a man, respects you, does not give you any shit, isn't spoiled and comes from a strong traditional nuclear family. You strongly believe her notch count is low to none.

You're seriously considering marrying her. But before you pop the question or tie the knot, how do you know or determine that it's not all an act? That she isn't doing the dishes and folding your clothes, only to stop doing all those things once you get hitched?

Background to why I'm asking:

I was at a family reunion last night and we had a pow-wow about my marriage and divorce. The women in my family were surprisingly red-pill about it, for lack of better description.

When you guys and I talked about my ex-wife in my divorce thread, y'all were too nice compared to what my female family members said. Some of the things they said were:

Sister in law: "She's evil and knows how to manipulate a man with puppy dog eyes."

33 y/o female cousin 1: "She had me fooled, too. It was all an act from day 1."

42 y/o female cousin 2: "You need to date as many women as you can so you know who is good and who is not. Don't marry in the next 5 years, at the very least."

Sister: "I agree, focus on yourself, be selfish, and don't sacrifice any of your time and money or happiness for a woman."

33 y/o female cousin 1: "She really treated you like that? Next time a woman does that shit, tell her to piss off!"

82 year old Aunt: "Don't ever marry an American girl!" (and everyone bust out laughing)

And then I posed this question: "how do I know if a good girl is not just acting?"

No one had an answer.

[viajero]

If you're worried about it, the easiest thing to do is not get married.

Edit: sister and cousin 2 have the best advice.

[Parlay44]

It's a good move to let the women of your family evaluate your future wife.
It's the only time a woman is looking out for your best interest (in part). I'm sure they are also testing her out for compatibility with themselves. Last thing they want is another insufferable cunt to deal with in the family.

[Engineer]

Look at the books on her bookshelf and her browser history.

Live with her for a while, probably over a year.

Make sure she knows if it's an act or if she crosses a red line, you'll divorce her very quickly.

Before you even start looking for Mrs. CleanSlate, make a list of the things you need, want, would tolerate, and would not tolerate.

[RockHard]

(05-30-2015 11:56 AM)Engineer Wrote:  

Look at the books on her bookshelf and her browser history.

Live with her for a while, probably over a year.

Make sure she knows if it's an act or if she crosses a red line, you'll divorce her very quickly.

Before you even start looking for Mrs. CleanSlate, make a list of the things you need, want, would tolerate, and would not tolerate.

I like this advice. Also her Spotify playlists (or just generally what music she listens to).

In my case, a couple years ago my soon-to-be-ex branched out in her reading, went from reading very conservative stuff (Jan Karon, Anita Shreve) into some pretty dark stuff - Cormac McCarthy, Story of O, 50 Shades, a bunch of other stuff. That was a huge signal of a personality change. Same with her music - folk music and Christian rock and suddenly she's listening to Katy fucking Perry?

I really believe in the whole what you take in reflects itself on the outside.

Also the female relatives. My sister-in-law told me the same thing. She lives in a different state and we don't see each other very much, but looking at my ex's Facebook she could see that something was going on.

[WestIndianArchie]

Patrice O'Neal said that you need to teach your girl how to love you and take care of you.

That's all I got. So if she's amenable to leadership and your lessons, you're more likely to have the thing you want.

WIA

[Rutting Elephant]

Three weeks after compiling "Post-Divorce Philippines Sex Spree" we get "thinking about getting married again"?

[CleanSlate]

Not thinking about getting married anytime soon, but this was a question that came up during the family talk. I figured I'd ask here and see what y'all had to say.

I'm going to follow my cousin and sisters advice on staying single for at least 5 years minimum. But during that time I want to learn all I can about how to determine who is good wife material, and not just avoid what these lessons have to offer the entire time, just in case that information may prove useful 5-10 years from now.

[Dr. Howard]

(05-30-2015 12:40 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Patrice O'Neal said that you need to teach your girl how to love you and take care of you.

That's all I got. So if she's amenable to leadership and your lessons, you're more likely to have the thing you want.

WIA

I agree with this, insane devotion is an excellent baseline. I dated one young girl that over the course of about 8 months had learned all of the music I liked, what food I liked, started reading comic books I liked. She would have followed me to the ends of the earth or any cult of my choosing.

Its a fine line between devotion and obsession...and the division is mostly just a social awareness

[Onto]

My last LTR was marriage material. There was one pivotal moment when I knew it could never be an act. We spontaneously drove upstate in the late Fall, but didn't book a hotel room beforehand. I thought it wouldn't be an issue, however this weekend was alumni weekend for all the colleges in the area and all the hotels were booked solid for a 100 mile radius.

We slept in the car in the freezing cold on a side street. She didn't complain once, in fact it was no big deal for her. If anything I was the grumpy one. She never, ever complained or wanted it her way. It was always, "Yes, mi amor", with a smile.

As a couple put yourselves in stressful situations and see how she reacts to suffering, to doing without, to not having it the way she expected. Take a long trip together and setup mini-disasters along the way. You don't even need to set them up really, life always throws them at you anyways.

Why I didn't marry her is another story, but I think you should only get married if you can't imagine wanting to live your life without them.

[Catch 22]

Go slow. The longer you observe, the harder it is for her fake.

[jariel]

(05-30-2015 01:41 PM)Onto Wrote:  

Why I didn't marry her is another story

I think it's crucial to the topic at-hand, and given the rest of your post, that you at least shed some light on that part of the story, because you made an argument that that particular woman was worth marrying because of X reason(s), yet you didn't marry her, so either she turned out to be a problem or the problem was yours.

Note: I know we're also having a conversation in the other LTR thread, so don't think I'm coming after you, you're actually making some great points.

[Disco_Volante]

(05-30-2015 11:31 AM)CleanSlate Wrote:  

Sister in law: "She's evil and knows how to manipulate a man with puppy dog eyes."

33 y/o female cousin 1: "She had me fooled, too. It was all an act from day 1."

42 y/o female cousin 2: "You need to date as many women as you can so you know who is good and who is not. Don't marry in the next 5 years, at the very least."

Sister: "I agree, focus on yourself, be selfish, and don't sacrifice any of your time and money or happiness for a woman."

82 year old Aunt: "Don't ever marry an American girl!" (and everyone bust out laughing)

And then I posed this question: "how do I know if a good girl is not just acting?"
No one had an answer.

What's sickening is they essentially lie about it to you for your entire life until you finally question them about it.
It's like, why didn't your female family members just tell you this shit when you were younger? You would think they'd want to look out for you.
Instead they probably sold you on some bullshit fantasy that you 'landed a good girl', then when reality hit home they finally told you what they knew all along.

They're so irrational I don't really view women as people anymore. Fuck, at least the women in your family could've told you some of the truth about women but they won't.

[CleanSlate]

(05-30-2015 02:29 PM)Disco_Volante Wrote:  

What's sickening is they essentially lie about it to you for your entire life until you finally question them about it.
It's like, why didn't your female family members just tell you this shit when you were younger? You would think they'd want to look out for you.
Instead they probably sold you on some bullshit fantasy that you 'landed a good girl', then when reality hit home they finally told you what they knew all along.

They're so irrational I don't really view women as people anymore. Fuck, at least the women in your family could've told you some of the truth about women but they won't.

Well, this is exactly why I am raising these questions on RVF. I don't care if I get shit for asking this type of question so soon after my own divorce. Sometimes we can't even rely on our closest friends and family members, due to their own biases whatever they may be, for the cold hard deep truth that we need.

Look, you may be right here, but I am not going to throw my own family under the bus. Plus they were the very first ones to come to my side and helped me get through this without losing frame or caving into my ex's manipulation attempts.

[Fortis]

(05-30-2015 01:41 PM)Onto Wrote:  

My last LTR was marriage material. There was one pivotal moment when I knew it could never be an act. We spontaneously drove upstate in the late Fall, but didn't book a hotel room beforehand. I thought it wouldn't be an issue, however this weekend was alumni weekend for all the colleges in the area and all the hotels were booked solid for a 100 mile radius.

We slept in the car in the freezing cold on a side street. She didn't complain once, in fact it was no big deal for her. If anything I was the grumpy one. She never, ever complained or wanted it her way. It was always, "Yes, mi amor", with a smile.

As a couple put yourselves in stressful situations and see how she reacts to suffering, to doing without, to not having it the way she expected. Take a long trip together and setup mini-disasters along the way. You don't even need to set them up really, life always throws them at you anyways.

Why I didn't marry her is another story, but I think you should only get married if you can't imagine wanting to live your life without them.

Damn. She sounded like she was pretty legit. Must have been doing nuts to make you not stick around.

[WestIndianArchie]

(05-30-2015 02:47 PM)CleanSlate Wrote:  

(05-30-2015 02:29 PM)Disco_Volante Wrote:  

What's sickening is they essentially lie about it to you for your entire life until you finally question them about it.
It's like, why didn't your female family members just tell you this shit when you were younger? You would think they'd want to look out for you.
Instead they probably sold you on some bullshit fantasy that you 'landed a good girl', then when reality hit home they finally told you what they knew all along.

They're so irrational I don't really view women as people anymore. Fuck, at least the women in your family could've told you some of the truth about women but they won't.

Well, this is exactly why I am raising these questions on RVF. I don't care if I get shit for asking this type of question so soon after my own divorce. Sometimes we can't even rely on our closest friends and family members, due to their own biases whatever they may be, for the cold hard deep truth that we need.

Look, you may be right here, but I am not going to throw my own family under the bus. Plus they were the very first ones to come to my side and helped me get through this without losing frame or caving into my ex's manipulation attempts.

It's real hard to listen to friends and family when they say the chick you're talking to, dating, marrying, married to is bad news.

I've had 4 LTRS, I got those warnings 3/4 times.

Did I listen? lol

WIA

[germanico]

"Im going to take a lesson from my failed marriage and stay single for at least 5 years"

"Im going to take a lesson from my stint in rehab and stay sober for at least 5 years"

"Im going to take a lesson from Napoleon and stay out of Russia for at least 5 years"

"Im going to take a lesson from my jail sentence and stay out of jail for at least 5 years"

[Onto]

(05-30-2015 02:00 PM)jariel Wrote:  

(05-30-2015 01:41 PM)Onto Wrote:  

Why I didn't marry her is another story

I think it's crucial to the topic at-hand, and given the rest of your post, that you at least shed some light on that part of the story, because you made an argument that that particular woman was worth marrying because of X reason(s), yet you didn't marry her, so either she turned out to be a problem or the problem was yours.

Note: I know we're also having a conversation in the other LTR thread, so don't think I'm coming after you, you're actually making some great points.

It's a long story and I would need to go into a lot of detailed background about me and her which would veer us off-topic which is, "how do you know when it's not an act?".

Although I wouldn't be surprised if I already delved into it a little in some post long ago. If we are ever in the same city and have the opportunity to meet up in person, I'd be happy to talk about it then.

Fortis, she wasn't crazy. She was actually a really sweet person of impeccable character. Sometimes I romanticize the past and wonder if I made the right decision, but just because we meet someone that's marriage material, it doesn't mean marrying them would be the best thing for either person.

[jariel]

(05-30-2015 03:24 PM)Onto Wrote:  

but just because we meet someone that's marriage material, it doesn't mean marrying them would be the best thing for either person.

You made a great point here.

A girl might be marriage material for one guy, but not marriage material for another.

This whole game is "your mileage may vary".

I think guys make the mistake too often of going into relationships with women with tunnel vision.

Every girl isn't going to be your girlfriend. Some girls are just good to have fun with, some of those girls you should/will only have fun with once. Some girls you should eliminate from consideration immediately, and so on.

[Fortis]

Onto, that makes sense. I actually mistyped that post. I meant to say, "Something nuts must have happened." Didn't mean to imply that she did anything crazy. Sometimes circumstances are just really beyond a man's grasp.

[Apollo21]

(05-30-2015 03:34 PM)jariel Wrote:  

(05-30-2015 03:24 PM)Onto Wrote:  

but just because we meet someone that's marriage material, it doesn't mean marrying them would be the best thing for either person.

You made a great point here.

A girl might be marriage material for one guy, but not marriage material for another.

This whole game is "your mileage may vary".

I think guys make the mistake too often of going into relationships with women with tunnel vision.

Every girl isn't going to be your girlfriend. Some girls are just good to have fun with, some of those girls you should/will only have fun with once. Some girls you should eliminate from consideration immediately, and so on.

So true. Marriage should be more like a business decision...so many people just focus
on the emotional/love aspect that they don't evaluate the other aspects that can be
landmines/red flags later down the road.

The best way to know if a girl is wife material is to know yourself, who you are and what's
the best for you. Then you have to stay as objective as possible...and get a 360 degree look at the girl.

What are her relationships like? With her Mom, her Dad, her friends What makes her happy, what get's her upset.
What is her work ethic like? Does she keep her apartment/car clean...how does she live her life when she's not with you?

Every detail is important because it gives you another piece of the puzzle
so you can see the whole picture.

If you look past her words and look at her life and use your intuition
you'll start to get an image of what the girl is really like...and whether she's right for you.

[Vincent Chase]

The best indicator is probably her own family rather than necessarily herself. See how her mum and her dad are in their relationship, what are their professions, has her sister got married what is she doing - is she divorced, has she decided to quit work and play with her fucking fingers while her man goes to work all day, how much money do they have. Many women out there are pure fucking leaches on society and I would personally find it very hard to marry a woman with a low income and not from a wealthy family. Yes sure in the good old days these probably used to be the best and most modest women for marriage, not anymore.

It's sad to say but it's best to assume every woman has dollar signs in her eyes unless it's clear from her family background, their relationships, her education, her profession that it may not be the case. Even then she could be pulling wool over your eyes.

She should be proving that to you not the other way round, afterall many women's livelihoods are based around marrying someone, men barely benefit from it, if at all.

[Menace]

Strongly agree with Onto. It is essential to put them into stressful situations where things are not roses. Can she sacrifice for you? There are many other things raised above, but I believe this one is not optional.

[robreke]

I was reading "The Millionaire Mind" today and one of the chapters explains how choosing the right spouse is crucial if one wants to become a millionaire. Interestingly, the vast majority of millionaires are married (presumably happily) to the same spouse for a long time, usually for life. Most millionaires are married, not single or divorced.

The theme that occurred over and over when Millionaires were asked about their spouses and how their spouses contributed to their happiness and, indeed, financial success were that their spouses were:

Honest, Responsible, Loving, Capable and Supportive.

Those four themes occurred over and over amongst the millionaires interviewed.

There was one story about a very successful man who had been happily dating a woman for some time. They got along well, had similar interests, were attracted to each other and by all accounts she seemed a good, honest woman. He had intentions of marrying her. Then, he found out, due to a botched call from a credit company, that she was $ 35,000 in debt with student loans and had not been making any payments on them.

When he confronted her with this she hemmed and hawed at first saying it was no big deal. When he pressed her, she confessed that because she knew how wealthy and successful he was, she was planning on getting him to pay off the loans once they were married. She was going to keep the fact that she had all this debt under wraps under they were hitched. Disgusted by this feeling of dishonesty and betrayal he dumped her. Now single, he vows to vet any woman he is considering for marriage. The man said he would probably also want to do a credit check on any potential spouse in the future and he would be happy to show her his income statements and credit history as well.

So, to sum it up look for a girl who's : Honest, Responsible, Loving, Capable and Supportive. Oh yeah, and who you're attracted to and who is still years away from the wall and who is hopefully not whored out. Much tougher to do here in the West than anytime in history but, hopefully for the diligent and traditional minded man, still doable.

[RockHard]

It's interesting, you guys hit on 2 other things I now see were red flags:

(05-30-2015 01:41 PM)Onto Wrote:  

As a couple put yourselves in stressful situations and see how she reacts to suffering, to doing without, to not having it the way she expected. Take a long trip together and setup mini-disasters along the way. You don't even need to set them up really, life always throws them at you anyways.

Check. A few months before I got engaged we did a trip and it was fucking hell. Every little thing that went wrong, she flipped her shit. How you handle stress as a couple is huge.

(05-30-2015 10:04 PM)robreke Wrote:  

Those four themes occurred over and over amongst the millionaires interviewed. There was one story about a very successful man who had been dating a woman for a few years. They got along well, had similar interests, were attracted to each other, and by all accounts she seemed a good, honest woman. He had intentions of marrying her. Then, he found out, due to a botched call from a credit company, that she was $ 35,000 in debt with student loans and had not been making any payments on them.

My situation wasn't that bad, but she's shitty with money. When we got married she was in debt for a year's gross salary, and money was a radioactive subject. She'd always get real defensive. I remember her saying "you're making me feel like a bad person for having debt!". Again, big mistake. Defensiveness is usually a revelation that she does actually feel bad about her behavior but she's looking for an enabler to make it OK.

(05-30-2015 03:00 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

It's real hard to listen to friends and family when they say the chick you're talking to, dating, marrying, married to is bad news.

Yep. I had that too. You think that they don't know her like you do, but the other half of it is that they know you better than you realize.