[robreke]

I have a semi-bratty niece. My brother lets her make the decisions in terms of what movie we're watching that night when I'm there or what activity we're doing for the day. She's about 11. When I say something to her ( or him ) she'll often throw out an argumentative counter argument.
I want to tell her to behave herself and that "we're doing this/ watching this because we're men and the adults." But, I am hesitant to be a 'father figure' or correct her in front of her father, who's my brother.
Any of you deal with this? How do you handle without being a dick?

[Dino]

Kids should never run the show.

How about nicely explaining to your brother your concerns in private. If he doesn't change things up then he is happy with how it is and you should distance yourself from the situation.

I found myself in a full time version of that to a higher level with very rotten step kids. I could tell you some horror stories. It was worth a costly divorce to get away from the rotten little spoiled brats. I'm money ahead now and a happier man. Lesson learned. Those kids were professional cock blocking money spenders.

Rob, at least you get to go home! Lol I hope your brother straightens things out.

[Foolsgo1d]

You are feeding her ego.

If you're afraid to correct a child in front of the father and he is your brother you may have more issues than you realise.

Just today my niece who is 9 went up to me and said "whose book is this" and I said it was mine. She immediately goes to tear the pages of my brand new book. I almost threw her out the fucking room for being such a vindictive little shit.

Her behaviour has come about because she is in an environment where her ego is stroked and pandered too. This is where a girl becomes an outright bitch and she learns to enjoy it. If you do not make it known to a child that you are the boss and your word is their world then its downhill from there.

Have a chat with your brother and if he doesn't do anything then may be you need to cut yourself loose of your niece.

[Tytalus]

robreke - I'm gonna go full nerd retard here and quote the sith code here because you need to unplug from your blue pill lenses:

Quote:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

If you can't stick up for yourself to a bratty 11 year old you have bigger problems. I do understand not wanting to parent when your brother is there, but holy shit you need to do it because who the fuck else will?

[Robert Plant]

I have a similar situation with my 4 year old nephew and my sister who gives him everything he wants. I've got a couple of thoughts on your situation...

1. Have a talk with your brother where you tell him about your own observations. Use actual examples of what happened. Be very careful to not judge your brother or your nephew in this talk. For example, you can say things like, "I noticed when you told Johny to put his toys in their box, Johny walked away without acknowledging you. I noticed you did not do anything when this happened. Were you aware of that?"

2. When working with anyone but especially kids, non-verbal communication is usually more powerful. For example, if I were your brother in the situation above, I would not ask for Johny to put his toys away again. I would simply look at Johny until he complied with my order. If Johny flat out refused, he would get a pre-determined consequence: 5 minutes of quiet time in a room without any toys. I would not show anger at any point. Everything would be very business like. I might eventually have a talk with Johny about why it is important to clean up after yourself.

[Onto]

It's been said the most important time for molding a child in the right manner is the first 7 years. At 11, it's very late in the game to start.

Unless you have power to punish her (grounding, doing chores, taking away of privileges, etc.), there isn't much you can do as far aa commanding. Instead you would need to shame her, make her feel like an ego. Women abhor egotism and believe they are not egos themselves (self-interested people). You would need to find a way to show how she is being one.

Saying, "you're the men and adults", will work on young children, but for an 11 year old feminist-in-the-making it may just serve to give her the ammunition she needs to feel justified in having it her way. At that point she can feel she's not having it her way at all. Instead she's preventing you from having it your way. i.e. preventing you from being egos. It's a clever little trick women play on themselves so they don't have to see their own egotism.

The whole thing starts off on bad footing if your Brother asks her to make the decisions. At that point, she's just doing what her Father asks, which is relieving him of the responsibility of being masculine (making decisions, taking action).

If you find her being argumentative when having a conversation with her or your brother, you can either leave or engage. It's rude for her to interrupt a conversation she's not part of. Saying that, then leaving if she continues might get the message across to both her and your brother.

If she is part of the conversation, you can engage her by calmly asking questions about what she said. Don't argue your point-of-view, but instead ask her questions about hers. Each answer she gives, ask her another question about what she just answered with. If you're lucky you can catch her in a contradiction and then gently show her that. That could lead to a lot of laughter and an insight. That's kind of rare though.

Most people can't handle 2 or 3 levels of questioning like this. After the first question, they are annoyed with your probing, two levels in they hate you, after three levels they want to kill you.

This is similar to the Socratic method and they did eventually kill him for it.

If you can do this kind of questioning, she may be the one to run away from you and will never want to argue with you again. In fact, her and your brother might walk on eggshells around you from then on.

Do you want that though? That is another question. Part of this is she's entering her teenage, rebellious years. It's a stage she's going through and unfortunately in America kids for the most part are raised to have no respect for authority or the masculine in general. It's taught in school and all the media they are bombarded with.

I have a family full of feminists and liberal white-knights. I used to engage with them, but eventually learned I would not be able to undo a life-time of cultural programming in my short visits. Now, I just ignore them and when they start ranting about their politics, liberalism, feminism, etc. I get up and leave the room. They notice, and other family members who enjoy my company notice. I've even skipped holiday get-together's in the past.

As a result, the liberal ranting has been toned down somewhat, and now when one of my sister's or female cousin's lapse and put in a dig at the masculine I just look at them and say nothing. Sometimes the perfect counter-argument is none at all, just a look into their eyes communicates everything you want to say, bringing them into self-relfection, and putting them in self-doubt.

If it becomes too much to bear, take a break from them. It will probably put them into question about why. Then when you do see them again you may find them on thier best behavior.

If I could do it over again, I would've never engaged my family members like I have in the past. It's just not worth it. Instead, I would've been understanding and sympathetic that they are misguided, hope they will come around someday, and just try to appreciate the good qualities they have.

[robreke]

(05-25-2015 11:13 AM)Onto Wrote:  

It's been said the most important time for molding a child in the right manner is the first 7 years. At 11, it's very late in the game to start.

Unless you have power to punish her (grounding, doing chores, taking away of privileges, etc.), there isn't much you can do as far aa commanding. Instead you would need to shame her, make her feel like an ego. Women abhor egotism and believe they are not egos themselves (self-interested people). You would need to find a way to show how she is being one.

Saying, "you're the men and adults", will work on young children, but for an 11 year old feminist-in-the-making it may just serve to give her the ammunition she needs to feel justified in having it her way. At that point she can feel she's not having it her way at all. Instead she's preventing you from having it your way. i.e. preventing you from being egos. It's a clever little trick women play on themselves so they don't have to see their own egotism.

The whole thing starts off on bad footing if your Brother asks her to make the decisions. At that point, she's just doing what her Father asks, which is relieving him of the responsibility of being masculine (making decisions, taking action).

If you find her being argumentative when having a conversation with her or your brother, you can either leave or engage. It's rude for her to interrupt a conversation she's not part of. Saying that, then leaving if she continues might get the message across to both her and your brother.

If she is part of the conversation, you can engage her by calmly asking questions about what she said. Don't argue your point-of-view, but instead ask her questions about hers. Each answer she gives, ask her another question about what she just answered with. If you're lucky you can catch her in a contradiction and then gently show her that. That could lead to a lot of laughter and an insight. That's kind of rare though.

Most people can't handle 2 or 3 levels of questioning like this. After the first question, they are annoyed with your probing, two levels in they hate you, after three levels they want to kill you.

This is similar to the Socratic method and they did eventually kill him for it.

If you can do this kind of questioning, she may be the one to run away from you and will never want to argue with you again. In fact, her and your brother might walk on eggshells around you from then on.

Do you want that though? That is another question. Part of this is she's entering her teenage, rebellious years. It's a stage she's going through and unfortunately in America kids for the most part are raised to have no respect for authority or the masculine in general. It's taught in school and all the media they are bombarded with.

I have a family full of feminists and liberal white-knights. I used to engage with them, but eventually learned I would not be able to undo a life-time of cultural programming in my short visits. Now, I just ignore them and when they start ranting about their politics, liberalism, feminism, etc. I get up and leave the room. They notice, and other family members who enjoy my company notice. I've even skipped holiday get-together's in the past.

As a result, the liberal ranting has been toned down somewhat, and now when one of my sister's or female cousin's lapse and put in a dig at the masculine I just look at them and say nothing. Sometimes the perfect counter-argument is none at all, just a look into their eyes communicates everything you want to say, bringing them into self-relfection, and putting them in self-doubt.

If it becomes too much to bear, take a break from them. It will probably put them into question about why. Then when you do see them again you may find them on thier best behavior.

If I could do it over again, I would've never engaged my family members like I have in the past. It's just not worth it. Instead, I would've been understanding and sympathetic that they are misguided, hope they will come around someday, and just try to appreciate the good qualities they have.

I like that approach Onto and have done variations of it with my niece. I actually have been semi shaming her on and off during visits. I do the bemused and bewildered stare as if she's way off base or being idiotic and just that staring into her eyes is enough to cause her to shamefully understand she's being a brat.
I've also said things like " Now, that doesn't make any sense." when she says something idiotic. If she argues with me, I will calmly make statements of ask questions in a monotone voice until I back her up into a corner and she just shuts up as it's quite easy to best an 11 year old at logic 101. Or I would shut her down with an observations in an authoritative tone of voice. Sometimes, I will do this with her parents present. The comments here are basically validating what I have been doing with her so far. I was curious as to what some on the forum's insights were.
Fortunately, from what I can tell she's not a out of control by any means, just a little girl testing boundaries and getting into "that stage of life" Also, my brother isn't a complete pushover and he also practices male authority and discipline over her sometimes even drawing lines and shutting her down, but he does give her quite a bit more leeway than I would my own daughter.

[Onto]

Sounds like you're handling things well and perhaps it's a learning experience for you too. She's never been 11 before and you've never had to deal with an 11 year old niece (I'm guessing). Around that age children are becoming aware of their separateness from the others. It's not an easy time.

I can understand not wanting to undermine your brother's authority as the Father. It's actually good that you're not. It's his house and his family. That said, your niece has to know she can't treat you any way she likes. As you said, there are boundaries and she needs to learn that people have them.