[Foolsgo1d]

(05-03-2015 10:58 AM)Veloce Wrote:  

Why is it necessary to put words in his mouth for pointing out "...they are complicit in the endemic misbehavior of the police apparatus trampling on civil rights. Virtually no cop goes against the 'blue code' so when retribution is made, no fucks are given by me."

I'm in agreement. People on this forum make sweeping generalizations about women, and for good reason. We make sweeping generalizations about Islam and joke about how "it's a religion of peace." Yet anytime there's a post about police misconduct, there's reliably numerous rationalizations and justifications for their actions, along with the usual Not All Police Are Like That argument.

Suggesting a preference that the U.S. resemble a 3rd world country has no place in this argument, and noone has ever said anything about seeing the military as the enemy.

The fact of the matter is that we live in a police state, where officers are violating our constitutional rights on a daily basis. That you can somehow rationalize this behavior as "well, it's better than the alternative" is beyond me. Last I checked, we have legal rights to move freely within this country. Who knows why this guy was arrested, but we do know that he was pulled over for no reason whatsoever. I'd be happy if the driver would have blown their fucking brains out.

Edit: I agree with Blick Mang's suggestions, but to me that's just pie-in-the-sky talk. Good luck with all that.

Law enforcement is big business in the U.S. Billions of dollars are paid out so that we can have our war on drugs and needless traffic stops. With that much money at stake, Blick's reforms aren't as easy as pulling the plug.

I personally do stick to generalisations and sometimes I do not. On this occasion when the tone for "fuck the police I hope they all die" is thrown around I have to ask why they feel a need to wish death upon every police officer because the power is there to be abused.

My question on the third world police forces is relevant. Look at how they react and behave when dealing with crime and the public, they're no better than the criminals and ergo the term "the worlds biggest gang" comes about.

Its hard to portray to someone in a country outside of Western Europe where we don't have the OTT police vs public agenda. Granted we do have our problems in some incidents such as the Pakistani abuse gangs but for the most part we do not have simmering race wars, police murders and corrupt officialdom like the USA.

Why does the US have such lacklustre police training? Some obese lard arse who cannot run to save his life has the power of life and death.

US police are not trained to calm people nor approach situations with a cool head. It is always escalation to the use of a weapon.

The same can be said for the general public in the US. It is something within the psyche of its populace that has no way to back down.

I doubt people want to live in a country where life is cheap but the path is being taken towards it.

[AntiTrace]

(05-03-2015 07:12 PM)Foolsgo1d Wrote:  

(05-03-2015 10:58 AM)Veloce Wrote:  

snip

I personally do stick to generalisations and sometimes I do not. On this occasion when the tone for "fuck the police I hope they all die" is thrown around I have to ask why they feel a need to wish death upon every police officer because the power is there to be abused.

My question on the third world police forces is relevant. Look at how they react and behave when dealing with crime and the public, they're no better than the criminals and ergo the term "the worlds biggest gang" comes about.

Its hard to portray to someone in a country outside of Western Europe where we don't have the OTT police vs public agenda. Granted we do have our problems in some incidents such as the Pakistani abuse gangs but for the most part we do not have simmering race wars, police murders and corrupt officialdom like the USA.

Why does the US have such lacklustre police training? Some obese lard arse who cannot run to save his life has the power of life and death.

US police are not trained to calm people nor approach situations with a cool head. It is always escalation to the use of a weapon.

The same can be said for the general public in the US. It is something within the psyche of its populace that has no way to back down.

I doubt people want to live in a country where life is cheap but the path is being taken towards it.

This is a very good point.

I have spoken with many law enforcement guys. From regular street cops to DEA teams. We have had many conversations about the proper use of escalation of force. I can't think of one time I have had a conversation about deescalation of force, deescalating a situation.

In the military and law enforcement would we focus almost exclusively on escalation of force. That makes sense for military, but you are right that law enforcement should practice some form of deescalation. They might do that and I am just not aware of it, but that could be another bullet to add to Black Mangs post.

[Basil Ransom]

"US police are not trained to calm people nor approach situations with a cool head. It is always escalation to the use of a weapon.

The same can be said for the general public in the US. It is something within the psyche of its populace that has no way to back down."

No, the same cannot be said for the general public in the US. Aside from wannabe thugs, Americans aren't that confrontational, road rage aside. As I explained, bouncers are pretty good at doing cop-like duties AND de-escalating conflicts.

[Bear Hands]

I would go as far as to say most American live in fear of confrontation now. Most do not know how to handle it, and at least since the 1990s our school systems have been enforcing avoidance to such a degree that younger people cannot even deal with a face to face argument much less anything violent because they have been trained to run to an authority whenever a conflict could occur. Weapons have been stigmatized for so long that a lot of people are afraid of being in the same room as one. Plenty of Americans own guns but a great deal have never fired a gun anywhere but a firing range.

Slight tangent: I fired a gun for the first time last September when I went to a range with a buddy who was in the Army at the time. A sane person needs to do this at least once to realize safety and control are easy with proper vigilance and respect and to see what kind of damage a weapon can do to an object. I don't fear guns anymore but I would damn sure be slow to escalate to gun use in conflict after seeing some targets disintegrate. I learned the same thing from boxing after hitting people in pads and getting hit myself. If you know what you're inflicting and what it's like to be on the wrong end, you won't jump at the chance unless you're a psychopath.

[Grange]

http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/04/co...-just-got/

Quote:

Remember Officer Jackie Neal, formerly of the San Antonio Police Department? Officer Neal was arrested after sexually assaulting a handcuffed teenager in the back of his patrol car back in 2013. Now, in an unexpected turn of events, Officer Neal has been shot.

The Bexar County Sheriff’s Office says that Officer Neal was shot in the neck last night and is in critical condition.

Local KSAT says that the shooter was a female, 46, who lived with him in the same home. There was not statement on the exact motive for the shooting, but she was apparently taken into custody without incident, indicating that she had a problem with Neal specifically, and was not simply lashing out violently at anyone and everyone around her.

This has led many to speculate on a connection between the shooting and the officer’s actions for which he was arrested.

Neal still has the sexual assault charges to face in June, regardless of having just been shot in the neck.

Far from speculation, police sources told local KSAT that the shooting “might” have been related to the upcoming court appearance and charges facing Neal.

It is important for a civilized society to have formal procedures for dealing with suspected criminals...but is anyone crying about this?

[Cattle Rustler]

^ Don't fuck with Texas.

[homersheineken]

(05-03-2015 02:37 PM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  

Have you ever personally seen a bouncer behave like this? I haven't. Yet we see videos of cops behaving like this all the time - and cops and their defenders try to convince us that it is imperative to their mission to act like this. Bouncers get far less training, and typically make less money. Bouncers want to minimize drama, cops want to "control the situation." As a bouncer, you want to get people in and out quickly without issue. If there's some guy you want out, you get him out and away from your venue, you don't continue to provoke and engage with him.

Despite being much less confrontational, bouncers are very successful at fulfilling their role of maintaining order. And whether you're a cop or a bouncer, the nature of your adversary may require that you resort to more extreme forms of violence. It's just that while bouncers almost always try to de-escalate a situation, cops often do the opposite - maybe to get an arrest and a conviction out of it. Why they often escalate, I don't know.

The worst you'll get from a bouncer is getting banned from the venue and slapped around a bit. From a cop, you're looking at tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees and possible imprisonment. You might even get slapped around despite not resisting. Or fabricated charges, as the OP's video shows.

For balance, here's a video of bouncers acting like thugs - it's notable as an exception that proves the rule. Bouncers usually act nothing like this, for the simple reason that it's bad for business. IIRC, the bouncers involved in this case had some shady backgrounds. Most bouncers I've dealt with are pretty professional, and are a lot slower to respond to provocation than police.

I don't disagree with the argument you're making but the cop video you're using isn't the best representation.

That took place about a block from where I live in Chicago, next to Wrigley Field on St Patty's day. Basically the entire strip is shut down due to ridiculous drunk levels. I"ve had people pass out on my lawn - in the middle of the afternoon - from all day drinking from the morning. The cops are severely undermanned for this, so they get agitated quickly when in their face. Was it wrong? Perhaps, but even the douchy drunks in wrigleyville called him out for being a douche.

For some amusing play by play from Chicago's St Patty's day:

http://www.brobible.com/life/article/dru...y-chicago/

Last year:
http://www.cwbchicago.com/2014/03/it-ain...-pats.html

But there is PLENTY of evidence of Chicago Police brutality. Burge's decades reign of police terror: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/21/opinio....html?_r=0

[zero1]

Wow, I thought this would be a cool forum for some advice and chilled back people, but the cop hate here is really a turn off.

Happy to see pigs put down? What ungrateful fucks most of you seem. Until you walk a mile in another's shoes, I wouldn't judge so easily.

As someone here mentioned, for every bad cop you see, there's a hundred that aren't so. And if you don't believe that, then you're brainwashed by the media, and that's not red pill in any way shape or form. Yes, I agree, about 10% of cops are bad apples. But as some idiot here mentioned about not feeling sorry for the two "pigs" put to sleep in NY and many other such views. Are you really so sure the cops you hate so much are part of that 10%? Did you know anything about them?

See what it's like to walk the beat for a couple years, deliver death messages, attend countless domestics, and put up with abuse on a daily basis, and then give what's called objective feedback based on experience. Then, and only then, once you have seen all the angles from both sides, can you speak impartially and make a generalisation about an entire profession that prevents criminals from shooting you each day, not based on online videos from select incidents, but based on facts.

[Easy_C]

Happy to see them put down?

That grossly overstates how we feel. We've just stopped giving a fuck about them, since they'd be more than happy to kill any one of us for doing something like filming a traffic stop.



Also saying that it's a "few bad apples" grossly overstates it. When the "few bad apples" have their misconduct systematically protected and those who work to expose them run out of the system it's no longer a matter of "a few bad apples": the entire system has been corrupted and needs to be repaired.

Finally if you ACTUALLY gave a fuck about cops you'd want the bad ones to be held accountable. The animosity they cause makes everyone else's job harder, as does the animosity caused by local and state governments protecting cops from the consequences of police brutality.

[Hotwheels]

I see the media's portrayal of the police as trigger happy thugs is having the desired effect.

[zero1]

Well, that's one of the reasons I quit that job, because I wasn't fond of the way the system worked. But you make it sound like an ordinary good cop can do anything about it, and it's not as systematic or as a big a problem as you think either.

For instance, a traffic stop may comprise about 10% of the duties for an ordinary cop, the other dealing with real crooks, domestics, and other such incidents. None of those other 90% of the duties are ever uploaded on youtube, giving a very biased external view of what cops get up to all day. Look at PUA, select incidents are isolated and spread in the media to give the image the field is teaching how to rape women. And yet we all know the opposite is true.

I agree, there's no excuse for not reporting the occasional bad apple that exists. But I doubt anyone here, if they were an honest cop, could do anything about it either. The system just doesn't work like that, and yes it does need to be changed. Keep in mind though, every single honest cop also has fake complaints made against them each week from crooks they've arrested, that's part of the job. If you start taking every complaint seriously, or thinking every colleague is bad because a video on youtube was uploaded that cut out half of the story (and if you knew the full story on many occasions, I'd be surprised if you wouldn't reverse your opinion on the interaction), then there can be no team work, and no effective response to any organized criminal group if you're second guessing your colleagues all day. In short, it's not so black and white. You need to count on someone, or else you'll get depressed and suicide in that line of work rather quickly.

I agree, many videos of cops disgust me, and some cops are criminals that deserve to be put behind bars, or worse. No doubt about it. But I think perspective is the key here. There's bad apples everywhere. And there is internal reporting, checks and balances, and disciplinary action more than you might think. The thing is, the profession is necessary to prevent mass lawlessness, and such power always will attract undesirables. Keeping everything in perspective is key here, like it is everywhere else, in my opinion.

[Easy_C]

Which is all that most people are saying.....the internal control mechanisms NEED to be revamped, as do a lot of the nuances in the legal system that allow government prosecuters to selectively persecute people they take a disliking to for whatever reason.

Still, the thing about the "honest cops" is a bit understated. There's a lot of stories out there(including one guy I'm personally acquainted with) about cops who were bullied out oftheir departments after they reported conduct to whatever office is in charge of reviewing police misconduct at their department.

It's kind of like with the Army. If the Army REALLY cares about having officers with integrity then how do you explain their promotion of McChrystal after he was caught red-handed covering up Pat Tillman's death by friendly fire?

Any organization is what it incentivizes, and although the problem goes a lot deeper than I can talk about here (relates to the sovereign debt crisis) the reality is that a lot of municipalities are getting exactly what they want: aggressive, hostile, revenue collection agents.

It's also hardly a US issue. In Spain you can be ticketed for biting your thumb ("failure to maintain driving posture"). Multiple governments worldwide have started experimenting with the use of cash-sniffing dogs in airports (yes, I'm dead serious). France is trying to ban cash transactions of over $1000.

The situation everywhere is that governments are becoming extremely aggressive in their hunt for cash, and aggressive "policing for profit" is only part of that pattern.

[DarkTriad]

Before people go off the deep end, always be careful of what people are TELLING you to think. I'm a cop that isn't much into Moving Violations, and that's a pretty common comment/thought process for me if I'm riding shotgun and not driving. My partner sees something, he pulls them over, we deal with it as it goes, and I may not know exactly why he did it till we're discussing it later and writing the report. Also a pretty common rookie/vet dynamic - the vet sees something, makes the stop, the rook asks why later, the vet explains.