[Dalaran1991]

Guys, I have a big dilemna I need serious advice.

I left Vietnam 6 years ago and though I visit occasionally I have no intention to go back long term.

I"m finishing up my studies in Paris and things are looking good, I plan to stay in the West for a while and then continue living the nomad life (changing country every 5-6 years, traveling)

My parents are proposing me to go back home to Vietnam to be a hotel manager. They want to buy a medium hotel as their legacy for me and I would be the manager. At first they will lend me money for operational costs etc.

The way they break it down, I have every reason to go back: be my own boss, have a property to manage, be of a high social status in Vietnam, be close to my family. Whereas if I stay in the West I'll forever be a grunt, middle manager at top.

But the thing is, I just don't want to go back.

I don't know how to describe it, but I left for a reason. The cultural climate in Vietnam is suffocating. You guys may love it when you come visit, but I feel like long-term living (especially for a Westernized like me) is just not bearable. I don't like the people. I don't like the girls (except if they are very hot), I like white and latina girls. The mentality is alien to me. I just don't fit in. Never really did, that's why I left.

Career-wise, I'm a lone wolf. I HATE having to manage people. Not to mention that managing properties and business has never been what I want to do. I'm a research specialist/sociologist by trade. I want to eventually open my own bar one day, but that's not the same as managing a hotel.

That, and the whole thing about managing something for my parent (even though it would eventually be mine) just stinks with me. I don't like to owe my parents anything, especially because they have been very controlling in the past.

I know the west has its problems but you cats who have been expat will know that you would not want to trade places with some Asian countries. I love the culture in Europe and the idea of me being a stranger with total freedom and all that. I know I will never truly "fit in" here, but then I never did back home. And I have more and better friends here than back home.

What do you guys think I should do?

If I accept I have to go back next year, and I feel like my life in Paris just started to blossom.

[Cheetah]

Quote:

Whereas if I stay in the West I'll forever be a grunt, middle manager at top.

What makes you think that?

It is not possible to hire a hotel manager that you become the manager of, which would not oblige you to live there but to visit once in a while?

If your parents want to buy a hotel why not be involved in that process without having to move back. Most people that own properties hire staff to do the work.

Quote:

Not to mention that managing properties and business has never been what I want to do. I'm a research specialist/sociologist by trade.

You should strive to do what you want to do. Managing a hotel is probably not a walk in the park but I guess that you don't need to be a Sorbonne top student to do that.

If they do hire someone to become a manager and you one day change your mind, it can't be impossible to lay off the hired manager?

Either way, seems like your parents want you to visit home a little more.

[Fortis]

Doesn't sound like you want to do it. I wouldn't do it, but I applaud your parents for leaving something like that for you. Do what you want.

Location is important. If it was in a major city in Vietnam I might consider it purely because Vietnam appears to be on the rise economically.

[Savage]

Sounds like you already know what to do. You shouldn't make decisions that may affect the rest of your life based on what other people want you to do.

[Cattle Rustler]

Looks like you won't be happy in Vietnam no matter how good the offer is.

Just stay where you are homie.

You will wake up every day wanting to be there instead of dreading it, which would be the case in Vietnam.

[RichieP]

Seems like there are three large dealbreakers for you:

1)Not feeling any passion for the job
2)Not liking the culture
3)Not wanting to be controlled by controlling parents


Those are some pretty hefty negatives. Just imagine your life 6 months, 1 year, 5 years in to it if you accepted.

Its possible you could grow to enjoy management and business, and build a passion for it - I was very academic and thought I would never enjoy business, but turns out I do. The key though is that I'm a) building something for myself and b) offering a service I'm pretty excited about and selling to clients I like.

Keep making your own way in Europe man. Presumably you could later decide to go back to Vietnam and do something there if you wanted to later.

[Espresso]

(04-19-2015 09:15 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

But the thing is, I just don't want to go back.

I think there's your answer right there.

[Brodiaga]

I know what you mean man. I would have much better career and dating prospects back home too, but I just don't want to go back.

If you already had a EU passport, you can give it a try and then come back to Europe if things don't work out.

Hospitality business can be a pain in the ass, especially without the right experience or interest in running a hotel.

I guess it depends on how happy you are with your current situation. If you have to live in a shitty apartment and work for an asshole boss for low pay, maybe you can give it a try. Otherwise just stay where you are. You can always go back later if you choose to.

[Dalaran1991]

If I follow my heart it would certainly be staying in Europe. My life here is great, though material conditions are not of the same standard as my life in Vietnam. I like my internship (and job if I get hired later)

Which brings me to my next point: how much will material success matter in the search for happiness? Better standard of living = better lifestyle. And my parents argue that if I go back to Vietnam and get rich, I could later expat to any country I like with my money. I would also be able to marry higher quality girl (heh...) Basically they are saying: You haven't tried it yet. What if you tried and then you love it and have a much better life?

But like some of you pointed out, who says I can't get rich in Europe? It might be a bit harder but since coming here I've changed my life around in a way I could never have done had I stayed in VN.

If I leave Europe before getting my EU citizenship it will be a TON harder to come back unless I get filthy rich

(04-19-2015 09:34 AM)Cheetah Wrote:  

Either way, seems like your parents want you to visit home a little more.

This is the hardest part for me. I love my parents and though they have their faults, they have been very supportive of me so far. They are old now, and both me and my sister live in another country so I guess they are very lonely.

Quote:


You will wake up every day wanting to be there instead of dreading it, which would be the case in Vietnam.

I forgot about this. That was how I feel every fucking time I go back home for summer vacation. For all 4 years in USA and 2 years in Europe I NEVER once feel like I miss Vietnam. But every waking moment in VN I would kill to be away

I guess I have to decline the offer. But I just don't know how to put it to my parents. As much westernized as I am the Asian family values are hard to shake off, and I still feel like I owe my parents for everything they have done for me. Any advice?

[Onto]

Dalaran, you need to go back to Vietnam and head up that hotel so I can have a nice place to stay when visiting! You have to do it for the forum!

Seriously though, you need to follow your gut.

My Father owned a construction company and asked me in High School if I wanted to take it over. I said no because I saw how much he complained about it all the time. I'm a software developer now, sit at my desk all day, and every once in a while wonder what life would've been like if I had taken his offer. Usually at times I feel trapped in my current career.

Truth is, whether I became a General Contractor or a Software Developer I still would've been me, doing my thing in either occupation.

The hotel job may seem limiting and finite, but maybe you can work something out with your parents, as Cheetah suggested, where you take 3 months of the year off to travel. Or every other month, or whatever it may be.

You could always have a bar in the hotel, and if it's in a touristy location even have European/American girls visiting. Who knows, maybe you can convince Scarlett Johannesan herself to come and be a guest.

Maybe watch some movies or TV shows that revolve around hotel operators like "Casablanca", or the recent TV series "Magic City" to get a feel for it. Or better yet, talk to some local hotel managers and get there opinion.

Your parents obviously love you, are invested in you, and maybe worried they are losing you to the West. Use that to your advantage to get a nice hotel in a nice location where you can run it and expand it the way you want. Hire hot staff, be near western woman visiting Vietnam and also have the vacation time you need to travel the world.

And of course save the corner suite with a view for me.

[Onto]

(04-19-2015 05:20 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

If I follow my heart it would certainly be staying in Europe. My life here is great, though material conditions are not of the same standard as my life in Vietnam. I like my internship (and job if I get hired later)

Which brings me to my next point: how much will material success matter in the search for happiness?

It's not about happiness, but about freedom. Money = Freedom. Freedom to do what you want.

(04-19-2015 05:20 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

I would also be able to marry higher quality girl (heh...) Basically they are saying: You haven't tried it yet. What if you tried and then you love it and have a much better life?

It's my understanding that Vietnamese woman make for some of the best wives in all of Asia, and Asia is superior in itself to the West in terms of quality wife material.

No one knows how it will turn out. Whether you stay in Europe or run a hotel, your life will be yours and good either way.

(04-19-2015 05:20 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

This is the hardest part for me. I love my parents and though they have their faults, they have been very supportive of me so far. They are old now, and both me and my sister live in another country so I guess they are very lonely.

If your parent are getting old, you might need to be going back home more often anyways. What will happen when they can't care for themselves anymore? Who will care for them? I suspect they are thinking about that also with their offer.

Quote:


You will wake up every day wanting to be there instead of dreading it, which would be the case in Vietnam.

(04-19-2015 05:20 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

I forgot about this. That was how I feel every fucking time I go back home for summer vacation. For all 4 years in USA and 2 years in Europe I NEVER once feel like I miss Vietnam. But every waking moment in VN I would kill to be away

I guess I have to decline the offer. But I just don't know how to put it to my parents. As much westernized as I am the Asian family values are hard to shake off, and I still feel like I owe my parents for everything they have done for me. Any advice?

No one knows how you'll feel waking up in Vietnam as the owner of a hotel. It could be great, it could suck. The times you went back for summer vacation did you have a job there? A purpose there?

This time you will have a job and a purpose. Not only to your employees who rely on you for their livelihood, but also your guests for their comfort and safety, and of course you parents for being there to care for them.

We do owe our parents something. They brought us into this world and cared for us, fed us, protected us. If they just popped us out and did nothing we would've been dead in a week.

This doesn't mean you need to be in servitude to their every whim, but there is an obligation. We fulfill it not to get rid of the debt, but so we can feel deserving of our own children's kindness when it's our turn to be in the rocking chair.

[The Lizard of Oz]

Take the offer from your parents.

I believe that if you don't, you will always be nagged by the feeling of having been a poor son to your parents. I know that guys will tell you to forget about that, but in reality it's not so simple, easier said than done. You come from a culture where the family attachment is very important, and that is the sort of thing that grows and deepens in a man over time. There are few things worse than having to live with a gnawing regret that you cannot undo in any way.

Beyond that, I think there are other reasons why you should do this:

-- If you run a serious hotel and learn how to manage other people, you will acquire invaluable skills, practical skills that you'd be hard pressed to come by in any other way. Those skills can transfer to many other places in the world. If and when your parents are no longer around -- and you feel perfectly content that you've done right by them, and beyond that -- and you still want to leave Vietnam, you'll be able to do that on your own terms, from a position of financial stability, and taking your skills with you wherever you choose to go.

-- I believe that as a manager of a serious hotel in Vietnam, you will be able to run some quite high quality pussy there; probably hotter than what you would get in the West if you run it right, as a subtle, gentlemanly player and rake. Plain Viet pussy might be nothing special, but high end Viet pussy is very, very nice indeed -- I mean, very nice. And you will be able to run that, I believe, well and discreetly, and you will enjoy the hell out of it.

-- Finally, you don't have to stay there all year round. When the off season comes, take some vacations to RVF hotspots which you'll be able to go to without having to pinch pennies at all times.

I truly believe you will have a better life and life trajectory if you do this. And you are not closing any doors.

[GyopoPlayboy]

(04-19-2015 09:15 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

The way they break it down, I have every reason to go back: be my own boss, have a property to manage, be of a high social status in Vietnam, be close to my family. Whereas if I stay in the West I'll forever be a grunt, middle manager at top.

But the thing is, I just don't want to go back.

I don't know how to describe it, but I left for a reason. The cultural climate in Vietnam is suffocating. You guys may love it when you come visit, but I feel like long-term living (especially for a Westernized like me) is just not bearable. I don't like the people. I don't like the girls (except if they are very hot), I like white and latina girls. The mentality is alien to me. I just don't fit in. Never really did, that's why I left.

That, and the whole thing about managing something for my parent (even though it would eventually be mine) just stinks with me. I don't like to owe my parents anything, especially because they have been very controlling in the past.

I fucking HATE this attitude.

This has such a smug, pretentious, defeatist, bitch mentality that pretty much GUARANTEES you'll be a loser no matter where you go or what you do. There's no bigger turn-off to someone who genuinely wants to help you than this kind of attitude. I also guarantee that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Regardless of whether you want to open a bar or run your parents' hotel, here are all my issues with this post:

1. IME, guys who feel inclined to say they have "high social status" in their home country usually don't.

2. Winners don't bitch. Period. They seek solutions. And there's always a solution. Losers either don't try or don't want to try. That's why they start with a handicap and when they inevitably lose later, the first thing they do is find something/someone to blame. Repeat vicious cycle.

3. High status guys always think positive and believe in their own innate power to control their destinies. Doesn't mean everything will go exactly according to plan. But determining right now that you'll always be a grunt in the West? What kind of bullshit outlook is that? You have some magic crystal ball that the rest of us don't?

4. Winners look at opportunities and think about how they can take advantage of the situation. You have a unique position and instead of tackling it with an open mindset and actually giving it a chance, you immediately start bitching. That's unacceptable. It should be unacceptable to you as well.

Fuck, if my parents offered this chance to me, I'd immediately start drawing up goddamn expansion plans for the hotel. I'd use your "high status" in Vietnam to reach out to your network of other high status peeps to get the word out and market it or start discussing different possibilities for the direction of the hotel. I'd use my "Westernized" education and perspective to fucking take charge of shit and have my parents relax and let me run the show.

Game recognizes game. Your controlling parents would gladly hand the reins over if they saw how much more capable you were than they are.

(04-19-2015 09:15 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Career-wise, I'm a lone wolf. I HATE having to manage people. Not to mention that managing properties and business has never been what I want to do. I'm a research specialist/sociologist by trade. I want to eventually open my own bar one day, but that's not the same as managing a hotel.

And as a final note before ending this rant, running a bar is ALL about managing people, a property, and a business.

You need to straighten your shit out dude.

[Onto]

(04-19-2015 06:12 PM)GyopoPlayboy Wrote:  

I fucking HATE this attitude.

This has such a smug, pretentious, defeatist, bitch mentality that pretty much GUARANTEES you'll be a loser no matter where you go or what you do. There's no bigger turn-off to someone who genuinely wants to help you than this kind of attitude. I also guarantee that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

(04-19-2015 06:12 PM)GyopoPlayboy Wrote:  

And as a final note before ending this rant, running a bar is ALL about managing people, a property, and a business.

You need to straighten your shit out dude.

And I really hate your attitude, and sure I'm not the only one here that feels this way.

You seem to be the one who needs some straightening out.

[The Lizard of Oz]

Gyopo's post was harsh, but I feel that he might have been trying to give Dalaran some tough love... which got a little out of hand, LOL. But I somehow feel it was not really his intention to be as negative as it came out. Maybe his passion about these matters carried him a little too far.

[Fortis]

Gyopo, that was unnecessary. Clearly he doesn't want to go back to Vietnam. Why the hell should he. He left for a reason.

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

How long would it take to become a French citizen? I know residing in France for five years is typically required but if I recall correctly those who completed post-graduate studies at French universities have lower residence requirements. Could you not wait a bit, become a French citizen and then return to Vietnam? You could try it out for a year and hire someone else if you didn't like it; Europe would always be an option.

[Dalaran1991]

@GyoPo: what's the problem with you dude? I ask for input on a situation to consider the pro and con, and you jump on here talking big shit and spewing hate as if someone just spilled your beer. You don't know me, my attitude or story. Keep your self-righteous bravado to yourself. Your rant is full of (self)hatred, false assumption and projections, and offer nothing constructive for my situation.

(04-19-2015 07:09 PM)Porfirio Rubirosa Wrote:  

How long would it take to become a French citizen? I know residing in France for five years is typically required but if I recall correctly those who completed post-graduate studies at French universities have lower residence requirements. Could you not wait a bit, become a French citizen and then return to Vietnam? You could try it out for a year and hire someone else if you didn't like it; Europe would always be an option.

I asked my parents about it too. Couldn't I wait 2-3 years until I get my EU citizenship and get a jumpstart career THEN go back? But they said the opportunity is now. In a few years people will be all over the this hotel industry thing and it won't be such a good deal. Frankly I am not sure about jumping on market flux like this but I would trust my parent's assertion.

@Lizard: yeah, if I ever go back it will be due a large part to be close to my parents. Although experience show that keeping a certain distance is best for maintaining our relationship since we don't see eyes to eyes on many things.

Quote:

No one knows how you'll feel waking up in Vietnam as the owner of a hotel. It could be great, it could suck. The times you went back for summer vacation did you have a job there? A purpose there?

This time you will have a job and a purpose. Not only to your employees who rely on you for their livelihood, but also your guests for their comfort and safety, and of course you parents for being there to care for them.

@Onto: LOL... I'll get you a corner suite whether or not I run my own hotel so don't worry. The hotel, if things go well, will be in Da Nang, one of the younger and fastest growing cities in Vietnam.

You are right, when I came back for vacation I was just partying and doing some random internship. But if my heart isn't in this thing I might come back with a sense of burden and not of purpose.

I think the important thing is, whatever I decide, I must have my heart and mind 100% in it. Going to the West wasn't easy but because I love it it became pleasant. If I can find a way to commit to the offer then yes it may give me a new sense of purpose in life.

[monster]

(04-19-2015 05:28 PM)Onto Wrote:  

Seriously though, you need to follow your gut.

Don't entirely agree with that. Looking back on my life, if I had followed my parents suggestions/advice on career path/schools to attend/general advice I feel I would have been considerably more successful in life than I am today. Of course, as it stood I did the complete opposite. But now I'm older I see the wisdom of most of their advice and it seems as if I have come full circle. Except I would have saved oh a decade or so of struggle had I listened to them in the first place.

When you're younger you think you know it all, what's best for yourself and your family, etc. But it's not until you're older than you see you don't know shit. Hence, there is much wisdom to be garnered from folks who made mistakes and want to show you the way.

Remember: they are your parents! They have two shared and interdependent goals: they want YOU to be a success and they want to protect everything they have worked for their whole lives. When you're older you'll see that sometimes you have to let go of your own selfish wants in order to do whats best to make the family a powerhouse. This is often better for you from the long run because you don't have to start from scratch, you're already building from their success. Michael Corleone & The Godfather type shit.

So....my advice is to carefully consider your parents suggestions. And consult other elders....for example, professors you look up to in your university could offer valuable perspective on things (you think they've never seen this sort of inner conflict before after graduating how many 1000s of students? hah). Cause the bottom line is you're only 24 and at that age you think you know everything and the whole world revolves around you (trust me, we've all been there) but that ain't the case at all homey. The truth is at 24 you are at the age where you don't even know that you don't know.

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

(04-19-2015 07:18 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

I asked my parents about it too. Couldn't I wait 2-3 years until I get my EU citizenship and get a jumpstart career THEN go back? But they said the opportunity is now. In a few years people will be all over the this hotel industry thing and it won't be such a good deal. Frankly I am not sure about jumping on market flux like this but I would trust my parent's assertion.

You could always go ''wife-hunting'' to always have a key to Europe; to my knowledge, Italians are the best since the country offers you citizenship after three years of marriage without living in Italy. This is how I got to Europe although I didn't marry an Italian girl. As a Latin American, I also got ''preferential treatment'' in Spain which allowed me to naturalise after two years living there (if you subtract all the bureaucracy from which no-one is exempted). If you choose this path be certain to get all your financial matters sorted; this hypothetical wife should remain an asset not a liability.

Alternatively, you could gain citizenship- or residency-by-investment but this would only be after earning a few million. To my knowledge, Austria, Cyprus and Malta offer citizenship while a bunch of countries in Europe (Belgium, Latvia, Portugal et cetera) offer residency. A simple self-employed residency permit would do the job as well.

[Peregrine]

None of us are in a position to give advice on such a specific topic because we don't know you or have enough information to pass judgement. The little information that we do have is colored by your obvious bias against Option B. The bias is so strong that I suspect you didn't post this thread for advice, but rather support for a foregone conclusion.

Two cents from WSP: Never trade what you want the *most* for what you want in the *moment* how you interpret that is completely up to you.

My two cents (that I borrowed):

[Roosh]

7 day ban for Gyopo.

[El Chinito loco]

Why not try to have the best of both worlds. Research the specific hotel and the hotel business in general and see what would be required of you to get it up and running. Do some hard research backed up by actual realistic on the ground analysis.

See if it's feasible to create a working profitable business within a reasonable amount of time. Giving it two years doesn't sound unreasonable if the payoff is significant. You sound young so it's even less daunting of a time investment.

Find out what would be required to hire reliable management and have a system of checks and balances set up so it's as independently functioning as possible. Owners of hotels probably don't hang out there all the time they simply delegate and oversee things. Find out how they do it.

Then when that income is sufficiently passive enough you can take long "holidays" elsewhere.

I wouldn't be so quick to toss out this golden opportunity for a few reasons:

It's a high growth region in a very high growth tourist market.

You are a native VN citizen which affords you certain protection and possibilities to expand.

Your family sounds reasonably established. Don't burn bridges back home, ever. Even though i'm a U.S. citizen and have a dislike of the culture these days no way am I going to burn that business bridge.

Your current situation in your younger years may not reflect what you want a few years down the road. The Pussy and the euro lifestyle will probably get old. Keep emotions out of it for now and look at it from a pure risk/return outlook. I'm sure as hell glad I focused on business goals and saving my shekels for investment in my younger years.

[VolandoVengoVolandoVoy]

I vote for do it!

Without hesitation, do it.

It is incredibly difficult to get a new business started in any field. The vast majority fail.

You have a golden opportunity at the perfect time in your life. Your parents are fully behind you with all of their money and their connections, contacts, and influence. You are young and vigorous.

The hospitality business is a people business that involves a diverse set of skills. You will have the opportunity to grow and learn a tremendous amount if you approach it the right way. You can cross sell services to your guests, and do any number of things to increase profits.

You can also use your status as owner to selectively bang the hottest women that stay there. Presumably many of your guests will be international - the stream of pussy will be never ending. Plus the social proof of being a business owner will be a huge plus in any interactions you have outside of the hotel environment.

There is a lot of fun to be had as a hotel owner in Vietnam. You have been talking about it in this thread as if your parents want to exile you to a Siberian labor camp to clean latrines for the rest of your life.

In addition to the fun you can have while working, consider that you will not be working 100% of the year. You will have the chance to travel. And you will have an awesome network of contacts spanning the globe from the people you meet at the hotel.

Lastly, nothing is forever. You could make a big success out of the hotel, and in 5 or 10 years move on to something bigger and better.

Basically, if you want to have an interesting and highly successful life where you make real money and build wealth, and have a high level social circle, and plenty of options, going to Vietnam (which has great potential for growth) and opening the hotel is by far your highest percentage chance.

Could you in theory found some highly successful business in Europe and not have to disrupt the little comfort zone you have established for yourself there? Yes, of course, but it's extremely unlikely to work compared to the chance of the hotel working. The combination of hard work, hustle, and intelligence on your part, with the money and influence of your parents on the other, almost guarantees success in Vietnam. Whereas something working in Europe is basically a low probability crapshoot.

Lastly don't let some misguided idea of I have to make my own way 100% to be a real man dissuade you from doing this. Your parents are giving you a boost, not fixing the game. Remember what Isaac Newton said:

"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."

[WanderingSoul]

Your parents can adopt me and buy me a hotel.

I'll be the good son they always wanted.