[Gumbril]

Hello All,

I have been following SL 5x5 for about 2-3 months now and starting to experience positive results. I finish each workout off with neck and grip strength work. I also roll BJJ once or twice a week, but would do 3-4 if time permitted. Ideal for me would be at least 5-6 hours of mat time a week.

I'd like to complement the strength program by doing some conditioning for say 2 sessions a week.

Mostly I am interested in building my forearms, grip and endurance for grappling with bodyweight exercises and kettlebells.

A secondary concern is having a stronger core to assist my lifting and all round stamina, which neither bjj nor lifting seem to provide (being very specific forms of exercise).

If you were in my position, how would you structure these workouts to ensure not burning myself out, considering all the other exercise I do over the course of a week?

I'm also wondering what the approach is when you worked on muscle group one day on the strength training with barbells (5x5), and do higher rep conditioning with a kettlebell (on the same muscle group) the next day.

So for example I do my 5x5 barbell bent over rows one day, and then do say a circuit which includes 3xrounds of 1minutes of bent over kettlebell rows (at a weight equivalent to less than half the bar+plates of the barbell row).

Is that advisable or would it be better to leave further recovery days before hitting the kb bent over rows?

Thank you in advance for humouring my noob self.

[Wreckingball]

When your squat reaches 90-100kgs you will not enjoy working out that much.

Remember that part of muscle and strength gains also come from resting. Resting well is just as vital as exercising.

[Hannibal]

(04-15-2015 04:01 PM)Gumbril Wrote:  

Hello All,

I have been following SL 5x5 for about 2-3 months now and starting to experience positive results. I finish each workout off with neck and grip strength work. I also roll BJJ once or twice a week, but would do 3-4 if time permitted. Ideal for me would be at least 5-6 hours of mat time a week.

I'd like to complement the strength program by doing some conditioning for say 2 sessions a week.

Mostly I am interested in building my forearms, grip and endurance for grappling with bodyweight exercises and kettlebells.

Dude, get into sandbag training. Wrestlers have been using sandbags and odd objects to train with since wrestling was a sport.

Kettlebells are not a good return for the amount of money you throw at them. 24 kg too easy? Better spend another $230 to get a pair of 32 kg. Anything you do with a kettlebell, you could do with a dumbbell. The best part is that most gyms have heavier dumbbells than they do kettlebells.

They're real hyped up by a certain company, but you could do high rep barbell or dumbbell snatches and get basically the same cardiovascular effect. There is nothing magical about kettlebells.

Sandbags are cheap, versatile, and a great return for the money. Do reps, add sand, rinse and repeat. It's like throwing around a dead body. If you get a sandbag without handles on it, you will get a great workout for your grip. Even with handles it's still a pain in the ass to use (which provides good carryover for grappling).

I would do the two workouts for time.

Workout A
Sandbag shouldering, as many reps as possible in 20 minutes. Shoulder the sandbag, slam it on the ground, throw it back up to the other shoulder, rinse and repeat. Add some weight when you reach a rep goal (could be 50, could be 100, depends on how much endurance you want).

Workout B
Sandbag clean and press, as many reps as possible in 20 minutes. Add some weight when you reach a rep goal (could be 50, could be 100, depends on how much endurance you want).

Finisher if you're into that sort of thing.
10 minutes of sandbag carries. Alternate different carrying styles and grips when you get tired, once it hits the ground you're done.

If you really want you could also do zercher squats for time. It's not the best use of a sandbag but it's decent cardio and your legs and arms will get some extra work.

You could go the Brute Force sandbag route if you want a durable bag designed for workouts. It has handles. It also has two (or maybe three) bags inside of it, one you fill with sand and the other ones go around it to prevent spills.

If you want something cheaper you could go the homemade route.

[MrXY]

Pullups are excellent for building forearms, grip and upper body endurance.

[Vaun]

(04-15-2015 04:19 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  

When your squat reaches 90-100kgs you will not enjoy working out that much.

^^^ and weighted vest walks/runs, farmer walks, etc. Once your sets get heavy, the workout will get longer, and will likely be over an hour. Once you are there you probably dont need much else, and additional conditioning/cardio will only be a deterrent.

[Gumbril]

(04-15-2015 04:19 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  

When your squat reaches 90-100kgs you will not enjoy working out that much.

Remember that part of muscle and strength gains also come from resting. Resting well is just as vital as exercising.

I'm working up to 90k and it's becoming more difficult but also more enjoyable funnily enough. Anything like eating too much or too little before a workout, drinking the day before can make me fail my squats the heavier they get. So it's teaching discipline as well.

[Gumbril]

(04-15-2015 07:49 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  

(04-15-2015 04:01 PM)Gumbril Wrote:  

Hello All,

I have been following SL 5x5 for about 2-3 months now and starting to experience positive results. I finish each workout off with neck and grip strength work. I also roll BJJ once or twice a week, but would do 3-4 if time permitted. Ideal for me would be at least 5-6 hours of mat time a week.

I'd like to complement the strength program by doing some conditioning for say 2 sessions a week.

Mostly I am interested in building my forearms, grip and endurance for grappling with bodyweight exercises and kettlebells.

Dude, get into sandbag training. Wrestlers have been using sandbags and odd objects to train with since wrestling was a sport.

Kettlebells are not a good return for the amount of money you throw at them. 24 kg too easy? Better spend another $230 to get a pair of 32 kg. Anything you do with a kettlebell, you could do with a dumbbell. The best part is that most gyms have heavier dumbbells than they do kettlebells.

They're real hyped up by a certain company, but you could do high rep barbell or dumbbell snatches and get basically the same cardiovascular effect. There is nothing magical about kettlebells.

Sandbags are cheap, versatile, and a great return for the money. Do reps, add sand, rinse and repeat. It's like throwing around a dead body. If you get a sandbag without handles on it, you will get a great workout for your grip. Even with handles it's still a pain in the ass to use (which provides good carryover for grappling).

I would do the two workouts for time.

Workout A
Sandbag shouldering, as many reps as possible in 20 minutes. Shoulder the sandbag, slam it on the ground, throw it back up to the other shoulder, rinse and repeat. Add some weight when you reach a rep goal (could be 50, could be 100, depends on how much endurance you want).

Workout B
Sandbag clean and press, as many reps as possible in 20 minutes. Add some weight when you reach a rep goal (could be 50, could be 100, depends on how much endurance you want).

Finisher if you're into that sort of thing.
10 minutes of sandbag carries. Alternate different carrying styles and grips when you get tired, once it hits the ground you're done.

If you really want you could also do zercher squats for time. It's not the best use of a sandbag but it's decent cardio and your legs and arms will get some extra work.

You could go the Brute Force sandbag route if you want a durable bag designed for workouts. It has handles. It also has two (or maybe three) bags inside of it, one you fill with sand and the other ones go around it to prevent spills.

If you want something cheaper you could go the homemade route.

Good call Hannibal,

we used sandbags in my old gym but unfortunately neither my current strength gym nor my bjj gym have them so I would have to get one and store it in the shed. He used to schedule them into circuits with battle ropes, bells, box work and bodyweight stuff.

My neighbours will probably think I'm some sort of terrorist running around with a sandbag, but fuck them..

They really smash your core like nothing else.

I already own kettlebells by the way.

[Gumbril]

(04-15-2015 08:48 PM)MrXY Wrote:  

Pullups are excellent for building forearms, grip and upper body endurance.

Yeah I forgot to say, I use them as assistance exercises in my 5x5.

[RichieP]

Kettlebell swings are awesome for conditioning. Also give you plenty of hip thrust power which is key in BJJ (think explosive bridging, popping opponents off you from mount/sidemount).

They're low impact, can do 6mins intervals 2x a week and get big results.

The downside is, yes, expensive. But you can get a few months of progress out of a single bell. E.g. buy one you can just barely do 20 reps on, work up to intervals of 30sec swingining/30 resting, then eventually just do like one long continuous set of 150+ reps.

For grip strength/endurance: if you deadlift in your routine, just do some of the sets with no straps. That's enough for grip strength and endurance, particularly applicable to holding a gi in BJJ.

[Wreckingball]

I also have had (and to some extent still have) a weak grip.

What I see that is helping me:
Fatgripz on my dumbells and some barbell exercises.
Power cleans and front squats.
Gymnastics exercises such as tucklevers and static holds.

Not all the exercises target the grip, but i believe the forearm is also important for grip, stability and injury prevention.

[Hades]

I second the sandbags.

All fighters should do fingertip pushups, knuckle pushups, and grip training with towels.

[PHC19]

(04-15-2015 04:19 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  

When your squat reaches 90-100kgs you will not enjoy working out that much.

What? With quality programming, a 100kg squat can be achieved by an untrained novice in literally weeks. Hardly enough time to snuff the fun out of training. Hell, shit's just STARTING to get fun at that point.

[Saweeep]

(04-16-2015 07:57 AM)Hades Wrote:  

All fighters should do fingertip pushups, knuckle pushups, and grip training with towels.

Without wishing to sound overly pedantic, I think you mean all grapplers/MMA/BJJ fighters?

I've never done any of that stuff myself or with my fighters (standup).

[Saweeep]

(04-17-2015 01:48 AM)PHC19 Wrote:  

(04-15-2015 04:19 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  

When your squat reaches 90-100kgs you will not enjoy working out that much.

What? With quality programming, a 100kg squat can be achieved by an untrained novice in literally weeks. Hardly enough time to snuff the fun out of training. Hell, shit's just STARTING to get fun at that point.

Some people love the feeling of destroying their legs, others hate it more than anything in the world.

[PHC19]

(04-15-2015 04:01 PM)Gumbril Wrote:  

Hello All,

I have been following SL 5x5 for about 2-3 months now and starting to experience positive results. I finish each workout off with neck and grip strength work. I also roll BJJ once or twice a week, but would do 3-4 if time permitted. Ideal for me would be at least 5-6 hours of mat time a week.

I'd like to complement the strength program by doing some conditioning for say 2 sessions a week.

Mostly I am interested in building my forearms, grip and endurance for grappling with bodyweight exercises and kettlebells.

A secondary concern is having a stronger core to assist my lifting and all round stamina, which neither bjj nor lifting seem to provide (being very specific forms of exercise).

If you were in my position, how would you structure these workouts to ensure not burning myself out, considering all the other exercise I do over the course of a week?

I'm also wondering what the approach is when you worked on muscle group one day on the strength training with barbells (5x5), and do higher rep conditioning with a kettlebell (on the same muscle group) the next day.

So for example I do my 5x5 barbell bent over rows one day, and then do say a circuit which includes 3xrounds of 1minutes of bent over kettlebell rows (at a weight equivalent to less than half the bar+plates of the barbell row).

Is that advisable or would it be better to leave further recovery days before hitting the kb bent over rows?

Thank you in advance for humouring my noob self.

If you're training effectively, 5x5s will provide you with a good bolus of conditioning as it is, particularly as the weights get heavier. You're laying down muscle tissue/adding strength, which subsequently increases work capacity and drives down the amount of effort (as a percentage of total work capacity) required to perform everyday tasks.

Provided gaining strength is your primary goal, you CAN do some supplemental conditioning. However, there is an opportunity cost to doing too much conditioning, which can inhibit strength gains.

Conditioning is a metabolic adaptation, and a solid comparative base can be achieved relatively quickly without much time investment. Strength training is a structural adaptation, and takes MUCH longer. It also requires a significant amount of rest to recover peri-session.

I do HIIT (Airdyne or C2 - Prowler, Stepmill, etc. are fine too) 2x/week - :20s @ 100% / 120s active rest x7. Follow up with some chins and really basic GPP stuff. That's it.

My VO2 max is higher now than in my CrossFit days, and I'm twice as strong.

EDIT: If you want to derive the greatest benefits from an LP program, BJJ is pretty much mutually exclusive from my general interpretation. Yes, you're going to get stronger, but the gains will be sub-optimal when compared to a lifting only routine. It's a shitty predicament to be in, unfortunately.

[VincentVinturi]

I've found it's hard to keep up a strict stronglifts 5x5 routine on top of BJJ training.

Forget about lifting every other day once you get to the higher weights (relative to how strong you are).

5x5 is too many reps for me and the soreness is too much.

So I train BJJ 3-5x/week and do strong lifts twice a week.

Except instead of going 5x5 I go 3x5, which sounds negligible but I've found results in a lot less soreness while still maintaining strength.

[PHC19]

(04-17-2015 02:00 AM)VincentVinturi Wrote:  

I've found it's hard to keep up a strict stronglifts 5x5 routine on top of BJJ training.

Forget about lifting every other day once you get to the higher weights (relative to how strong you are).

5x5 is too many reps for me and the soreness is too much.

So I train BJJ 3-5x/week and do strong lifts twice a week.

Except instead of going 5x5 I go 3x5, which sounds negligible but I've found results in a lot less soreness while still maintaining strength.

Seems to be a common predicament. I intend to start BJJ at some point, but not until I'm satisfied with my strength levels.

[Saweeep]

Obviously it depends on one's goals but I wouldn't put off training BJJ due to strength levels; few martial arts are really about "gym" strength, especially as a beginner.

I'm pretty confident that it takes a whole load longer to become proficient at any martial art but particularly BJJ than it does to gain decent strength levels.

One of the overlooked benefits of martial arts that compliments strength training is flexibility; I've lost count of the number of built guys who have come to train with me who due to lack of flexibility from lifting (and not stretching properly) are utterly useless for quite a while.

[PHC19]

(04-17-2015 01:52 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

(04-17-2015 01:48 AM)PHC19 Wrote:  

(04-15-2015 04:19 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  

When your squat reaches 90-100kgs you will not enjoy working out that much.

What? With quality programming, a 100kg squat can be achieved by an untrained novice in literally weeks. Hardly enough time to snuff the fun out of training. Hell, shit's just STARTING to get fun at that point.

Some people love the feeling of destroying their legs, others hate it more than anything in the world.

Fair enough - to each his own. And yes, while fun...squatting can suck. Big time. But learning to deal with the pain and mental anguish of knowing you're one bad move or mental error way from being buried can provide immense benefits that can be transmutated into other endeavors. In my experience, at least.

[PHC19]

(04-17-2015 02:09 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

Obviously it depends on one's goals but I wouldn't put off training BJJ due to strength levels; few martial arts are really about "gym" strength, especially as a beginner.

I'm pretty confident that it takes a whole load longer to become proficient at any martial art but particularly BJJ than it does to gain decent strength levels.

One of the overlooked benefits of martial arts that compliments strength training is flexibility; I've lost count of the number of built guys who have come to train with me who due to lack of flexibility from lifting (and not stretching properly) are utterly useless for quite a while.

Yeah - I'd love to dig into it now, just don't want to leave any unfinished business on the table, strength-wise.

[H1N1]

(04-17-2015 01:51 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

(04-16-2015 07:57 AM)Hades Wrote:  

All fighters should do fingertip pushups, knuckle pushups, and grip training with towels.

Without wishing to sound overly pedantic, I think you mean all grapplers/MMA/BJJ fighters?

I've never done any of that stuff myself or with my fighters (standup).

Personally I would recommend fingertip pushups, extensors work, and crushing grip work for a boxer. I suffered a number of hand injuries when I was boxing, and got into hand training following some advice from Ross Enamait. The ability to squeeze the stuffing out of the gloves, and to have stronger more resilient fingers and thumbs (particularly thumbs - having had mine broken then a straight right glanced off my opponent) made a significant difference to my punching power and comfort in the ring, and personally I wish I had started it sooner.

[Wreckingball]

(04-17-2015 01:48 AM)PHC19 Wrote:  

(04-15-2015 04:19 PM)Wreckingball Wrote:  

When your squat reaches 90-100kgs you will not enjoy working out that much.

What? With quality programming, a 100kg squat can be achieved by an untrained novice in literally weeks. Hardly enough time to snuff the fun out of training. Hell, shit's just STARTING to get fun at that point.

If you squat 3 times a week, plus bjj, plus whatever conditioning you are doing, then there will come a time (soon) were it's doing more harm than good. Read my post again: No rest is almost as bad or even worse as no exercise.
He can keep it up while the weight is low. When it gets higher, it will be way more difficult to keep up with all that training.

[VincentVinturi]

^^^

Definitely.

You can actually feel your cortisol spiking when you're taking on this much training.

I got sick after the last competition I did and I'm pretty sure it was due in large part to the ridiculous preparation we did for it.

Which involved some serious overtraining, which has a suppressive effect on testosterone and the immune system.

And that's the one thing that sucks about BJJ.

If you really want to be good, and if you want to compete, you have to subject your body to chronic cardio and sever overtraining at times.

Although the mental toughness you develop from it is priceless.

[Saweeep]

(04-17-2015 08:42 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

(04-17-2015 01:51 AM)CrashBangWallop Wrote:  

(04-16-2015 07:57 AM)Hades Wrote:  

All fighters should do fingertip pushups, knuckle pushups, and grip training with towels.

Without wishing to sound overly pedantic, I think you mean all grapplers/MMA/BJJ fighters?

I've never done any of that stuff myself or with my fighters (standup).

Personally I would recommend fingertip pushups, extensors work, and crushing grip work for a boxer. I suffered a number of hand injuries when I was boxing, and got into hand training following some advice from Ross Enamait. The ability to squeeze the stuffing out of the gloves, and to have stronger more resilient fingers and thumbs (particularly thumbs - having had mine broken then a straight right glanced off my opponent) made a significant difference to my punching power and comfort in the ring, and personally I wish I had started it sooner.

Interesting.

I'll start adding some of that stuff to their workouts.

Thanks.

[StrikeBack]

Whatever you want to introduce, do so slowly and gradually, so your body and diet can adapt. Add one set of something new this week, then another set the week after. Don't add 3 new exercises with 3-5 sets each all of a sudden.

You're not currently lifting that much to be worried about getting too sore and not recovering fast enough, to be honest. It's all in your head. Just get yourself to the gym and start moving, the soreness will go away.