[Dalaran1991]

Fortis, I actually think its good that these women are nice enough to tell you they are not interested. Which COULD mean that you are being nice yourself. For me the girls just simply disappear and no contact again ever, because I too am very aggressive with them.

I had this happened only twice and both time I think I took way too long to escalate with her. Too long = more than one date.

Are you going with the first date bang mentality? IMO it really forces you to keep escalate until the girl says no or you bang her. At either point its no longer possible for her to give you that talk.

Its entirely possible that you may have a nice guy vibe, I know I used to do and even now it tend to rear its head.

One thing that gives me good results quickly is to dress more R-selected. It goes without saying to go to the gym and get that V-shape. Leather jackets are good. Get a cool necklace and maybe a bracelet. Good conversation starter and mark you out of the nice guy image.

You already know kino so I wont harp on there, but do you let your hands linger on their hand/leg, or touch their hair after enough escalation? It was one of the bigger game-changer for me in term of pushing sexual tension.

And what WIA said about connection.

[MdWanderer]

(04-20-2015 03:52 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Its entirely possible that you may have a nice guy vibe, I know I used to do and even now it tend to rear its head.

Do you mind explaining this? I think that is a lot of my problem too. I know doing nice guy things such as paying for expensive dinner dates, not escalating, and too many compliments is an obvious no-no but I feel I still have the vibe even after all of this game improvement. I'm stuck between one-night stands or women just not interested when I want something more long-term.

[OregonToSoCal]

(04-20-2015 10:40 AM)MdWanderer Wrote:  

(04-20-2015 03:52 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Its entirely possible that you may have a nice guy vibe, I know I used to do and even now it tend to rear its head.

Do you mind explaining this? I think that is a lot of my problem too. I know doing nice guy things such as paying for expensive dinner dates, not escalating, and too many compliments is an obvious no-no but I feel I still have the vibe even after all of this game improvement. I'm stuck between one-night stands or women just not interested when I want something more long-term.

I'm actually part of a recovering "nice guy" support group led by a therapist who's trained with Dr. Robert Glover, author of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and in our meeting last Saturday a guy recounted a story of what he seemingly thought was a great first date. When he went to contact the woman for a second date she gave him the LJBF speech. The therapist who leads the group and is very red pill in his approach, said that nice guys suck at projecting a strong sexual vibe on dates and instead treat their dates like non sexual friends and guess what? The guys get friendzoned more often than not as a result.

Instead he related his own approach to dating (he's single too). He said he makes an over the top, conscious decision to unleash his inner caveman, troglodyte, slobbering dog in heat, passionate, sexual self. He quickly followed it up with saying he doesn't verbally tell the woman all of this but his energy and intent is conveyed to the woman.

Of course after hearing this, it made me go back and think about my past dates and you guessed it, the times where I was unapologetically sexual in my vibe and escalation I was the most successful.

The thing about the fundamentals is that no matter good you think you are, you always must continue to practice them and never forget them.

[Fortis]

Dalaran,

Thanks for the post. I definitely have a nice guy vibe, but it's not as bad as it used to. I'm in the gym quite religiously and have been for almost 2 years so my body is looking right. When I get a girl home and in bed and first question after we're done fucking is often, "how much time do you spend in the gym, fortis?"

I'm going to definitely try to change up my style and be more aggressive. I wear a lot of tight Henley shirts that show off my chest and other things. A quality necklace might definitrly help add some more coolness to my style.

Thank you for the ideas,

Fortis

[MdWanderer]

(04-20-2015 10:56 AM)OregonToSoCal Wrote:  

I'm actually part of a recovering "nice guy" support group led by a therapist who's trained with Dr. Robert Glover, author of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and in our meeting last Saturday a guy recounted a story of what he seemingly thought was a great first date. When he went to contact the woman for a second date she gave him the LJBF speech. The therapist who leads the group and is very red pill in his approach, said that nice guys suck at projecting a strong sexual vibe on dates and instead treat their dates like non sexual friends and guess what? The guys get friendzoned more often than not as a result.

I'm considering picking up that book too. I used to be the guy in your example and got friendzoned a lot. Thanks to these boards I've recovered and have gotten several lays since that period.

[heavy]

(04-13-2015 05:16 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Be a little blunt, a little cocky, drop some red pill facts about relationships and sex - all women love talking about that shit.

Stop being so nice, a woman earns that from you.

All the above points, especially tactics, are great, but I suspect much of the problem lies here.

Well stated kaotic.

[Fortis]

I appreciate all the good advice in this thread. I haven't been on a date in a while because I'm getting ready for a big trip in a month. I'll post the details of my next date in this thread, though. I may whip up a date this just to try all the new stuff you guys are throwing at me, haha.

But yeah, I think I know what the problem is: overeagerness, and kindness.

[Dalaran1991]

(04-20-2015 10:40 AM)MdWanderer Wrote:  

(04-20-2015 03:52 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Its entirely possible that you may have a nice guy vibe, I know I used to do and even now it tend to rear its head.

Do you mind explaining this? I think that is a lot of my problem too. I know doing nice guy things such as paying for expensive dinner dates, not escalating, and too many compliments is an obvious no-no but I feel I still have the vibe even after all of this game improvement. I'm stuck between one-night stands or women just not interested when I want something more long-term.

Your body language for example, is unconscious and ingrained in you, so its pretty hard to fix without constant effort and awareness. Sometimes I still lean forward, fidget, point my body toward her too much, and dont take up a lot of space.

Your voice is a pretty important factor. I tend to be very soft-spoken with strangers, so if I'm with a girl and we're ordering something, my voice suddenly becomes soft and effeminate, whereas when Im alone with her I use a much rougher voice.

But I think the hardest part is about your mindset, which is very easy to slip during conversation when girl throw a stuff at you. So for ex, my convo from last night :

Me : (playing some vulnerability game) what about you ? Ever had anything in your life that forced you to change who you are ?
Girl : blabla, I’m trying to be less pretentious. I was from an aristocratic family from Colombia
Me : wow that’s awesome. I noticed that from the way you wear your scarf.

You would think this is not significant, but these are the kind of slips that we do all the fucking time and we dont even realize it. Here I was being nice and ackowledging her heritage and shit, next thing I know Im telling her about the time I spent with the Countess of Gastille. This is buying into her frame subconsciously. Though it doesnt fuck up your night, it goes against establishing the dominance and sexual tension we talked about, and before we know it we get the « Im just not feeling it » talk.

If I had said something like « Oh, that explains why you always have to puff up your ass while walking. Gotta be hard growing up a princess, I suppose ? How was it like ? » I would still be playing the comfort game but with a totally different frame.

Another example :
Was trying to get this girl to come out with me on a date but she said she would have to come back early since she got a long ride home
Me : dont worry, I’ll assign you a bodyguard to take you home
Her : Aha ! You mean you will take the train with me all the way to xyz ? I seriously doubt that !

I fucked up later but the point here is that, I cared too much about her safety/feeling or whatever that shit is. Its not my problem if she gets hit by a car or falls down a sewer. I should have just focused on getting her out and ignore the false time constraint instead of adressing it directly.


TLDR : trying to make a girl feel good and safe IS what gives off a nice guy vibe, and its subconscious. It might seem counter-intuitive because common game knowledge state that a girl needs to feel safe with you before she can sleep with you. This is true, but it comes MUCH later. Usually we start doing these things even before the date, thats BS. Anything before pulling her back to your crib, the sole focus should be building attraction. Comfort comes later.


I understand this is hard to do because I think deep down we are actually good human beings who care for others, especially girls who kick our protective instincts. But if you are not a naturally assertive guys you really have to shove that attitude down your ass.

[MdWanderer]

(04-21-2015 03:42 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(04-20-2015 10:40 AM)MdWanderer Wrote:  

(04-20-2015 03:52 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Its entirely possible that you may have a nice guy vibe, I know I used to do and even now it tend to rear its head.

Do you mind explaining this? I think that is a lot of my problem too. I know doing nice guy things such as paying for expensive dinner dates, not escalating, and too many compliments is an obvious no-no but I feel I still have the vibe even after all of this game improvement. I'm stuck between one-night stands or women just not interested when I want something more long-term.

Your body language for example, is unconscious and ingrained in you, so its pretty hard to fix without constant effort and awareness. Sometimes I still lean forward, fidget, point my body toward her too much, and dont take up a lot of space.

Your voice is a pretty important factor. I tend to be very soft-spoken with strangers, so if I'm with a girl and we're ordering something, my voice suddenly becomes soft and effeminate, whereas when Im alone with her I use a much rougher voice.

But I think the hardest part is about your mindset, which is very easy to slip during conversation when girl throw a stuff at you. So for ex, my convo from last night :

Me : (playing some vulnerability game) what about you ? Ever had anything in your life that forced you to change who you are ?
Girl : blabla, I’m trying to be less pretentious. I was from an aristocratic family from Colombia
Me : wow that’s awesome. I noticed that from the way you wear your scarf.

You would think this is not significant, but these are the kind of slips that we do all the fucking time and we dont even realize it. Here I was being nice and ackowledging her heritage and shit, next thing I know Im telling her about the time I spent with the Countess of Gastille. This is buying into her frame subconsciously. Though it doesnt fuck up your night, it goes against establishing the dominance and sexual tension we talked about, and before we know it we get the « Im just not feeling it » talk.

If I had said something like « Oh, that explains why you always have to puff up your ass while walking. Gotta be hard growing up a princess, I suppose ? How was it like ? » I would still be playing the comfort game but with a totally different frame.

Another example :
Was trying to get this girl to come out with me on a date but she said she would have to come back early since she got a long ride home
Me : dont worry, I’ll assign you a bodyguard to take you home
Her : Aha ! You mean you will take the train with me all the way to xyz ? I seriously doubt that !

I fucked up later but the point here is that, I cared too much about her safety/feeling or whatever that shit is. Its not my problem if she gets hit by a car or falls down a sewer. I should have just focused on getting her out and ignore the false time constraint instead of adressing it directly.


TLDR : trying to make a girl feel good and safe IS what gives off a nice guy vibe, and its subconscious. It might seem counter-intuitive because common game knowledge state that a girl needs to feel safe with you before she can sleep with you. This is true, but it comes MUCH later. Usually we start doing these things even before the date, thats BS. Anything before pulling her back to your crib, the sole focus should be building attraction. Comfort comes later.


I understand this is hard to do because I think deep down we are actually good human beings who care for others, especially girls who kick our protective instincts. But if you are not a naturally assertive guys you really have to shove that attitude down your ass.

This is good advice, thanks. I've noticed I have turned down the nice guy vibe a bit since I started game and have increased my lays, but need to throw in comfort after the lay so they keep coming back. I sometimes don't turn off the asshole vibe and get player-zoned.

[Geekzor]

Recovering nice guy here, and I must say that post hit me straight in the crotch (in a good way). Even though I shoved the red pill down my throat almost a year now, I still give this "nice guy" vibe and It starts to frustrate me, because I don't want to be seen as a nice guy and at the same time I have no idea how to counter that without coming out as rude or an asshole. I realize ofcourse that putting women on a pedestal is a big huge no no, and I'm glad I stopped doing that, but still I convey the image of a nice guy. Nice post keep it coming.

[Fortis]

We are all here to learn. Glad my problems could help you.

[Earl Grey]

Awesome thread. I'm going through the same exact issues as Fortis. I need to internalize the suggestions presented here.

[DJ-Matt]

This is a great thread, I finally have another first date this weekend so I'm paying close attention to the advice here.

[Fortis]

I may be meeting up with this Puerto Rican chick from tinder tomorrow night after work. If she doesn't flake, I'll let you guys know how the date went and if I was able to implement some of the stuff here properly.

[Advent Persona]

(04-20-2015 03:52 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Fortis, I actually think its good that these women are nice enough to tell you they are not interested. Which COULD mean that you are being nice yourself. For me the girls just simply disappear and no contact again ever, because I too am very aggressive with them.

^^This here. This is a good thing. You need to be more polarizing, (which naturally happens when you demonstrate intent very early in the interaction) which brings me to ask you where you meet these girls.

(04-26-2015 11:46 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

I may be meeting up with this Puerto Rican chick from tinder tomorrow night after work. If she doesn't flake, I'll let you guys know how the date went and if I was able to implement some of the stuff here properly.

I figured you were meeting most of these girls online, but correct me if I'm wrong. Your photos and your text game is probably on point, which is why you get the date in the first place. Your in-person seduction skills need work and you'll probably overcome your sticking point by doing more cold approaches and less online game. Approach > meet-up > bang or Approach > bang. Do that consistently for a couple of times then go back to what you're doing now and you'll find that your sticking point may have disappeared.

[Fortis]

Advent, very good advice. I'm currently using tinder for the most part. I've gotten lazy due to the convenience of it.

I actually had an interaction go well with a milf while out today, but I couldn't get her number because we were in a small shop and a few other people were around. I felt uncomfortable. I actually initiated touch with her and everything it was funny because she's laughing and smiling and like, "haha, don't touch me, fortis. I haven't had a man touch me in a week." I probably should have said fuck it and gone for the number in hindsight.

[Fortis]

K, so I met up with the chick. She was 20 so I just brought her to my place. Didn't bang her, but she was like 15-20 pounds heavier than I thought she would be LOL. I got her to blow me then kicked her out haha. She lived about 15 minutes from me so it was worth it. I didn't even give her a beer. Could have gone for a bang but My dick goes limp at the idea of fucking a fatty.

Funny points:

I called her and she was like, "fortis, why is your voice so friendly? You should nice."

I have a soft voice but I don't let it waver or anything.

[Dalaran1991]

(04-27-2015 11:19 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

I have a soft voice but I don't let it waver or anything.

This is what frustrates me the most.

I sound ok in real life but over phone/skype I sound like a fucking woman. Stupid fucking transmission makes my voice into a cat's meow.

The mailwoman called this morning for a delivery "Ms Dalaran, I have your package"....

Need to make that device that makes you sound like batman over the phone

[Fortis]

One thing that helps me hide the softness of my voice is to speak slowly. I think it makes my sound deeper and it is easier to do. Try and speak from your stomach as well, if that makes sense. Push air from the diaphragm instead of being Nasaly.

[redbeard]

(04-20-2015 11:02 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

Dalaran,

Thanks for the post. I definitely have a nice guy vibe, but it's not as bad as it used to. I'm in the gym quite religiously and have been for almost 2 years so my body is looking right. When I get a girl home and in bed and first question after we're done fucking is often, "how much time do you spend in the gym, fortis?"

I'm going to definitely try to change up my style and be more aggressive. I wear a lot of tight Henley shirts that show off my chest and other things. A quality necklace might definitrly help add some more coolness to my style.

Thank you for the ideas,

Fortis

This article has helped me a lot.

http://www.goodlookingloser.com/more/arc...k-buddies/

You have to go from "boyfriend material" to "boyfriend potential."

I give off strong boyfriend material vibes. I get it. I'm a clean cut tall white kid with a good job who dresses well and always has a watch.

I elevated myself into "boyfriend potential" because of my job. I have two "fuck buddies" right now and with both of them, this is how the highlight reel went.

1. Meet at bar
2. Booze heavily
3. Fuck her
4. Pass out naked
5. Hit it again
6. Leave for two weeks for work and barely contact her until I'm back in town.

Gman has spoken on what I do. Very simple, really, but playing up my absence has flung me into boyfriend potential and it is fucking awesome.

YOU have to find what "angle" you're gonna take. "Ohhhh Fortis is a great guy and would be an amazing boyfriend BUT....."

GLL has some solid articles about style that will help you too.

[Fortis]

Date night that finally broke the cycle (kind of)

Just a little background info to start:

I met this girl at a club in NYC while hanging with Eddie Winslow and Clint Barton. She had on this tight red dress, heels and she was an asian girl with an ass and a really mean mouth on her, A.K.A my kind of girl. When I met her I pretended to be bump into her then grabbed her waist to so that she wouldn’t fall. She was all of 5’ tall so any bump from a guy would send her staggering. I immediately went for the make out after stabilising her and chatting for a bit, but she wasn't having it. I kept feeling her ass up through her dress and I could tell she was turned on. I love girls like this because you can escalate hard on them and they love it. Something about bitchy women loving to be controlled and dominated.… I may have to make a post about it. Ha.

I couldn't close her that night, so I took the number and we start talking via text. This was last Friday.

Yesterday:

We set up plans to meet up at a bar in NYC. I usually don’t commute to NYC for dates (I live in NJ), but I had a feeling that this girl was trying to fuck. Boy was I right.

So, she shows up to the bar 15 minutes late, but I made sure to talk to the other people in the bar and mingle a bit, y'know. Get my mind and body ready to fuck this chick.

So, I slam down a whiskey on the rocks and start looking for people to troll (interact with).

There’s a bald black dude in the bar, so I open him with my typical shit: 

“Dude, you stole my damn haircut!”

We laugh, chat, cheers and bullshit for a while. I’m just trying to get myself in that social mood where nobody can stop me.

My date shows up, finally. I give her shit for showing up late. She mollifies me and orders two shots of tequila. The bartender throws in two free shots for no fucking reason. The girl pays for all of it. Winning.

We're pretty tipsy at this point and we bounce to another bar. I'm grabbing her waist and generally getting her used to my touch.

We both get hungry and hit up restaurant for some #team appetisers. Ha.

We order a drink each and blow through the food. We order another drink. We're like 5-6 drinks in at this point and we're talking and being frank.

Me: you like black men, don't you?

Her: haha, yeah, but I prefer asian guys. My problem with black guys is that they usually are too "big."

Me: Laugh3

What do you mean?


Her: you know what I mean. You guys are usually too “big.”


----

At this point I know she bitch is down. To. Fuckkkkkk.

The waiter comps 1 of our appetisers for us. Again? Winning.

We leave the bar, and I try to make out with her. No go. I’m not bothered by it, though. because we just keep joking and laughing. She tries to get rid of me, but I use the oldest trick in the book:

“Ah damn. Can I stay at your place? I’m a little drunk. You made me finish your drinks.”

She’s pretending to be pissed, but she’s smiling the entire time. Gotcha!

We get on the train back to her place. She texts her roommate and lets her know she is having a man over. Her roommate texts her back and she's pissed! we both laugh about it.

We get into her place and into her room. I make a b-line for her bed and kick off my shoes. She changes into some other clothes in front of me and I'm pretty turned on at this point.

She sits on the bed and says the sweetest words a man can hear: Lights on, or lights off?

Off BITCH!

But I committed the most elementary game error ever. Ever.

I forgot the fucking condoms.

Oh man. I was pissed. This chick had a booty like Damn! I’m not used to Asia girls with asses. She’s some sort of rare breed sent down to earth to destroy me. I’m sure of it.

We spent the night dry humping and cuddling. until you see that ass. Goddamn.

What can I say? Asians have that effect on me. They’re cute. I finger her and she's so fucking tight. Like, unbelievably tight. before team #rawdog jumps down my throat, she was not letting that go down even though she was wetter than a fire hydrant. I must commend her on her restraint. I’ve never had a girl so wet and able to resist a good fucking.



I don't need any half-black/ half vietnamese babies running around--yet.

Thankfully, she hosted me that night and let me stay over. I did not want to have to take the local trains around NYC at night. She's a cool chick who hits my buttons. Ah well, time to go straight to the Asian source: China.

So that's my "almost got laid" report. Ha. 

Despite my major condom fail, I think this is a step in the right direction.

I decided that in order to ensure I have condoms on me I’m going to take an altoid tin and put 2 condoms in it and start carrying it with me on dates. Should be funny. Will report back.

[rudebwoy]

Fortis - my only question was how much you talk and what do you say. This question was asked and answered already.

Are you mentioning that you are moving to Asia in a few months?

[Fortis]

Rudebwoy,

Thanks for commenting in my thread.

I talk way too much. It's a blessing and a curse. I am witty, so I'll tease a lizard hard.

Example:

Me: you have closed off body language, (name). I feel like you're not open.

her: omg, no I don't! I feel like you're saying I'm a bitch, but nicely.

Me: *Smirk*

her: you asshole! *slaps me on the arm*
------
Her: you're not going to kill me and my roommate, are you?

me: I'm going to chop you up and put you in the mail chute. *in a totally deadpan voice*

her: not if I get you first....

---------

Me: quit acting like a peasant and eat your appetisers

her: I'm a princess. *pouting*

Me: *mimicks her in a whiny high pitch voice until she cuts her shit out*

----


Typing that out, I probably sound fucking retarded.



Edit:

RudeBwoy, I don't tell them that I'm going abroad. I lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, right now because I'm 10 days I'm gone. Think I should be telling them I'm leaving soon?

[germanico]

Quote:

But I'd like to be honest and say that I"m unfortunately not interested in pursuing anything romantic.

Stop wooing them.

"Want to come over?" "What are you doing later tonight?" its ok.

"Do you want to go out on Saturday?" "Hows your schedule next week?" is not.

This confirmed by your statement that you get "first dates". Stop trying to date when you want to get laid.

[Fortis]

^ Good point, Germanico.

I've been focusing on escalating physically ASAP. It seems to elicit the best responses on dates. Some girls will go, "omg don't touch me," But they'll smile and stick around after initiating pretty obvious contact. It's sort of a mind fuck how that works.