[civpro]

(04-01-2015 03:53 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 03:24 AM)civpro Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 02:42 AM)Hades Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 01:25 AM)civpro Wrote:  

You can milk out the last little bits of your natty delt and lat gains, but apart from that, no there is nothing you can do to change your general proportions and you obviously know this. You cannot reshape bone. Learn to live with your shortcomings, accept that nobody's perfect, and take pride in your advantages: you are young, white, in shape, of good stature, etc.

How can a guy who's 5'10" and 150 be considered close to hitting genetic potential? Even by the paltry metrics espoused by Arthur Jones, he still has at least 20 (if not 30) pounds of rip to go before tapping out.

Um, I don't see how 20 lbs of muscle spread out through the legs, chest, arms, and the like, is going to significantly help the S to W ratio caused by his clavicles. Just how much more bideltoid width can he add naturally? Maybe 2" max?

Say you're right and it is 2" across. If you combine that with 2-3" of depth -back and upper chest growth, you are looking at a massive transformation. 2" across the shoulders is a substantial gain that is worth pursuing, as it likely represents at the very least 20lbs or so of muscular growth. 2" is a huge difference.

Lol Actually what I should've said is 2 cm. The medial delts are a very small slip of muscle with accordingly limited growth potential.

Even with all the juice in the world you cannot completely ascend your bone structure. Take Zyzz's brother Chestbrah for instance. Major tren abuser and he has an impressive, thick, solid, tight physique to show for it. But his narrow frame still shows. Put him beside Babo (member of his crew who's 4 inches shorter than him) or beside Jeff Seid and he gets out-shouldered to oblivion. Not trying to be a downer here, everybody should try to hit their muscular potential, but trying to steer guys away from "work hard and anything is possible" bluepill thinking.

[The Beast1]

Eddie there's a lot of hamstering in that post. 150lbs is skinny, and from the looks of your pictures you've filled out your back but your chest is lacking any noticeable developments.

Have you considered changing out your routine for something that focuses more on your chest? I was able to pack on 3-4 lbs very quickly from doing some isolation work on my chest and also widening my grip on my bench. Dips can also help. Anything to isolate and focus on the pecs.

From what you've stated, i'm surprised your newbie gains haven't gotten you to at least 160-165. With that said, try my suggestions and see if you can put on a few extra pounds in the next three months.

What's your diet like?

[Fast Eddie]

(04-01-2015 03:59 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Eddie there's a lot of hamstering in that post. 150lbs is skinny, and from the looks of your pictures you've filled out your back but your chest is lacking any noticeable developments.

Have you considered changing out your routine for something that focuses more on your chest? I was able to pack on 3-4 lbs very quickly from doing some isolation work on my chest and also widening my grip on my bench. Dips can also help. Anything to isolate and focus on the pecs.

From what you've stated, i'm surprised your newbie gains haven't gotten you to at least 160-165. With that said, try my suggestions and see if you can put on a few extra pounds in the next three months.

What's your diet like?

Yeah, I definitely need to work on my chest. I really, really focused on the back during the initial period where I made most of my weight gains because I was under the impression that would make me look wider. Only recently did I come to the conclusion that it's actually the shoulders that will have the largest impact, and that I shouldn't be neglecting the chest, either.

Question: is bench/incline bench with dumbbells + dips sufficient for chest development? I currently do sets of 10 with 55s for bench and 45s for incline. For whatever reason doing barbell bench press fucks with my wrists so I don't do it.

As to diet, that kinda depends. From late 2013 until a few weeks ago, I was traveling on business M-Thrs every week and taking advantage of the $50/day food allowance. I'd eat a couple of hard-boiled eggs or some cottage cheese for breakfast, and typically a roasted half chicken with a baked potato + veggies at noon. At ~3PM I'd get a protein bar and milk, and after leaving work at 5:30 go to a Qdoba (identical to Chipotle) and get a bowl with double meat and everything on it. That shit alone was 1200 calories haha! Then at 8PM I'd usually go to a Barnes & Noble and drink some hot chocolate and maybe eat a cheesecake. I'd finish up around 10PM with some organic berries and a protein shake before going to sleep. The remaining three days of the week I'd eat less since I was paying for it, but still decent quantity.

So that diet above got me from 135 to 150 in about a year, with no fat gain. But for the past 4 or 5 months I've hovered at 149-150 despite maintaining such eating habits. Since early March I've been "on the beach" and not traveling and thus eating a little less than before, but this doesn't seem to have made any difference. Shitty part is I'm about to quit this job and move to China, and I would blow my savings in literally half the time if I try to eat as much meat as I currently do with the crazy prices they have for that over there. I guess I will change from organic chicken breast and steaks to burgers

Edit: Civpro makes some valid points, and that video he posted was pretty damning. The narrator dude had obviously put up huge amounts of lean muscle mass but despite this he still kept the boxy appearance his bone structure predisposed him to. My own goal isn't to get jacked with a ton of muscle: I'd say 165 is probably my target range and I'd be pretty reluctant to push for more if I ever got to that point. Ideally, I want to achieve the lean athletic look with a nice V-taper. Some of my friends are my exact height and weight and they already have that look thanks to their bone structure. I'm hoping by putting on another 10 or 15lbs strategically I can get close to that aesthetic without crossing over into bulkiness. There just wouldn't be much point athletically, and my target audience (Asian girls) prefer lean over jacked.

[KC4]

I am 5'7 and weigh around 168 with a similar look. I actuall think op looks good.

[Spike]

You already close to a beach body. Focus a bit more on abs and pecs. They're lacking, especially upper chest. Use the butterfly machine if your gym has one or else cables and keep your arms completely straight, lower the weight if needed. Don't look at other guys who bend their arms (at the elbow) while doing this exercise and lift way more weight. That's not the proper way to grow with this exercise. Keep your arms straight as an arrow and give the muscles an extra squeeze when your touching your hands. Those upper pecs will grow fast.

Keep doing what you're doing now and buff up some more. Expect 5 to 10 pounds of lean muscle a year if you work and diet your ass off. 5 pounds is very doable, 10 pounds is pushing the human limits if you're roid free.

[PhDre]

(04-01-2015 12:11 PM)civpro Wrote:  

Even with all the juice in the world you cannot completely ascend your bone structure. Take Zyzz's brother Chestbrah for instance. Major tren abuser and he has an impressive, thick, solid, tight physique to show for it. But his narrow frame still shows. Put him beside Babo (member of his crew who's 4 inches shorter than him) or beside Jeff Seid and he gets out-shouldered to oblivion. Not trying to be a downer here, everybody should try to hit their muscular potential, but trying to steer guys away from "work hard and anything is possible" bluepill thinking.

I totally agree with you. Bone structure is the biggest determinant in how you will eventually look. If you don't have wide clavicles you will never look truly wide. And if your clavicles and rib cage are not a lot wider than your hips, you will never have a dramatic V-taper. And no amount of training, food or even AAS will change this.

If we could design ourselves, we would probably all be 6'4" tall, with wide clavicles, a big ribcage, a small pelvis and an 8" dick. But we cannot, and we cannot change our height our bone structure. At least not without ridiculously risky and expensive surgery. We cannot neglect nature and I strongly oppose the "work hard and anything is possible" mentality, just as you do. Genetics are important, a lot more than training, food an steroids. And some people just have superior genetics. Not everybody is created equal.

But I think this should not be the message of this thread, or of this forum in general. It should be: "How can I optimize what I've been given by nature?" And in that respect:
1) A small frame with 20-30 lbs of additional muscle on it will always look better than the same frame without the additional muscle.
2) If you train your lats, upper back and delts your V-taper will improve.
3) A small frame filled out with muscle and at a low bodyfat will always look better than a large frame without much muscle and with a fat gut.

I stand by my point that the OP is doing well. His shoulders are not narrow compared to his hips. He already has a decent V-taper. He has a small frame and that's why he is not wide or heavy. But he should just keep on doing what he is doing: pull-ups, rows, overhead presses, bench presses, lateral raises, deadlifts. He will get wider (but never truly wide, I agree) and further improve his V-taper. And in a few years he will have a better physique than 95% of guys you see in the streets.

[The Beast1]

(04-01-2015 11:40 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 03:59 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Eddie there's a lot of hamstering in that post. 150lbs is skinny, and from the looks of your pictures you've filled out your back but your chest is lacking any noticeable developments.

Have you considered changing out your routine for something that focuses more on your chest? I was able to pack on 3-4 lbs very quickly from doing some isolation work on my chest and also widening my grip on my bench. Dips can also help. Anything to isolate and focus on the pecs.

From what you've stated, i'm surprised your newbie gains haven't gotten you to at least 160-165. With that said, try my suggestions and see if you can put on a few extra pounds in the next three months.

What's your diet like?

Question: is bench/incline bench with dumbbells + dips sufficient for chest development? I currently do sets of 10 with 55s for bench and 45s for incline. For whatever reason doing barbell bench press fucks with my wrists so I don't do it.

As to diet, that kinda depends. From late 2013 until a few weeks ago, I was traveling on business M-Thrs every week and taking advantage of the $50/day food allowance. I'd eat a couple of hard-boiled eggs or some cottage cheese for breakfast, and typically a roasted half chicken with a baked potato + veggies at noon. At ~3PM I'd get a protein bar and milk, and after leaving work at 5:30 go to a Qdoba (identical to Chipotle) and get a bowl with double meat and everything on it. That shit alone was 1200 calories haha! Then at 8PM I'd usually go to a Barnes & Noble and drink some hot chocolate and maybe eat a cheesecake. I'd finish up around 10PM with some organic berries and a protein shake before going to sleep. The remaining three days of the week I'd eat less since I was paying for it, but still decent quantity.

So that diet above got me from 135 to 150 in about a year, with no fat gain. But for the past 4 or 5 months I've hovered at 149-150 despite maintaining such eating habits. Since early March I've been "on the beach" and not traveling and thus eating a little less than before, but this doesn't seem to have made any difference. Shitty part is I'm about to quit this job and move to China, and I would blow my savings in literally half the time if I try to eat as much meat as I currently do with the crazy prices they have for that over there. I guess I will change from organic chicken breast and steaks to burgers

How do you hold the bar? I find that i'm able to get the best form by doing a Yoga bridge (google) to get my back as arched as possible. I then take my hands and do a wide grip. Finally, i extend my thumbs out so they're pointing at each other. For whatever reason, i'm better able to balance the bar better having it run along the length of my thumbs.

You can make decent gains using dumb bells. I'd consider doing some weighted dips as well.

I did this routine for a while and made a few chest gains in a couple of months, though I plateau'd rather quickly, but I had some nice chest gains to show for it. Once you plateau I would change up your lifting program.

Here's the address of the program: http://www.allmaxnutrition.com/post-arti...d-success/

As for diet, I see a lot of junk food and processed stuff from stores and restaurants. You can make decent gains dirty bulking, but you will eventually start hitting a wall where you will get sick eating all of the processed food.

Consider also investing in a good protein shake and use it as a meal replacement. I am quite fond of casein protein shakes, but a lot of guys have success with whey. Whatever tickles your fancy.

Keep at it, you'll be able to develop your chest and not not like a half cylinder!

[Sonoma]

Get a fucking tan and you'll be good.

Honestly besides that there's no quick fix, just keep adding weight and protein and you'll get bigger

[Moma]

Fast Eddie, you may want to hit the barbell bench press more. Max out a little more and for a better taper, do bodyweight pullups pronated grip! At 150 you should be able to do 12-15 per set quite easily. If not, that's a reasonable goal.

There are different forms of sexy. You got that ripped Brad Pitt fight club look. You just need to tighten up a few areas and you'll be there. You are already blessed with low body fat so all workouts will show immediately.

Go for it!

[civpro]

(04-01-2015 11:40 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

my target audience (Asian girls) prefer lean over jacked.

You don't like white girls?

[INegUThenLol]

(04-01-2015 02:42 AM)Hades Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 01:25 AM)civpro Wrote:  

You can milk out the last little bits of your natty delt and lat gains, but apart from that, no there is nothing you can do to change your general proportions and you obviously know this. You cannot reshape bone. Learn to live with your shortcomings, accept that nobody's perfect, and take pride in your advantages: you are young, white, in shape, of good stature, etc.

How can a guy who's 5'10" and 150 be considered close to hitting genetic potential? Even by the paltry metrics espoused by Arthur Jones, he still has at least 20 (if not 30) pounds of rip to go before tapping out.

Lol this. Dude is 150lbs, there's A LOT of room for improvement.

To the OP's question: basically, stick to what you're doing. There's nothing wrong with your routine, you simply need more of it to add more mass and then you'll get your V-taper with time as you widen everywhere.

Oh and you actually have a bit of fat sitting on you since one can't see any visible six pack or oblique outlines. If you lose that fat, the waist will narrow and you'll get a V-taper

[Hades]

(04-01-2015 12:11 PM)civpro Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 03:53 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 03:24 AM)civpro Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 02:42 AM)Hades Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 01:25 AM)civpro Wrote:  

You can milk out the last little bits of your natty delt and lat gains, but apart from that, no there is nothing you can do to change your general proportions and you obviously know this. You cannot reshape bone. Learn to live with your shortcomings, accept that nobody's perfect, and take pride in your advantages: you are young, white, in shape, of good stature, etc.

How can a guy who's 5'10" and 150 be considered close to hitting genetic potential? Even by the paltry metrics espoused by Arthur Jones, he still has at least 20 (if not 30) pounds of rip to go before tapping out.

Um, I don't see how 20 lbs of muscle spread out through the legs, chest, arms, and the like, is going to significantly help the S to W ratio caused by his clavicles. Just how much more bideltoid width can he add naturally? Maybe 2" max?

Say you're right and it is 2" across. If you combine that with 2-3" of depth -back and upper chest growth, you are looking at a massive transformation. 2" across the shoulders is a substantial gain that is worth pursuing, as it likely represents at the very least 20lbs or so of muscular growth. 2" is a huge difference.

Lol Actually what I should've said is 2 cm. The medial delts are a very small slip of muscle with accordingly limited growth potential.

Even with all the juice in the world you cannot completely ascend your bone structure. Take Zyzz's brother Chestbrah for instance. Major tren abuser and he has an impressive, thick, solid, tight physique to show for it. But his narrow frame still shows. Put him beside Babo (member of his crew who's 4 inches shorter than him) or beside Jeff Seid and he gets out-shouldered to oblivion. Not trying to be a downer here, everybody should try to hit their muscular potential, but trying to steer guys away from "work hard and anything is possible" bluepill thinking.

I liked the video a lot. He made a lot of reasonable arguments.

I can agree that the size of the frame matters, but it's not something to worry about until he's carrying more muscle and can make a better judgment of what's possible. The bodybuilder dude in the video had a great point about not comparing yourself to others and just trying to beat the last version of yourself, that's a pretty good way to go about it.

[Fast Eddie]

Thanks for the advice and encouragement guys! I think the way forward is to continue my routine with some slight change in emphasis from back to shoulders and chest, and some oblique work thrown in to reduce the hip to waist taper. I'll probably try to hit 165 and then cut.

@Civpro

Not really. I prefer Asians and latinas in that order, but Asians are better suited to my low key introvert personality so I typically focus entirely on them.

[INegUThenLol]

Also to the "I don't know how more muscle is gonna make you look wider" crew, that has to be a joke right. It's hard to pinpoint what EXACTLY makes you look wider, but it's something about the overall mass on your upper body stretching out your clothes more and making them kind fall down on you. When you add a certain amount of mass, shirts and tshirts will start to snag and get stretched out on your pec/lat/upper back area and the lower part will hang loosely down from there, same with some jackets which won't cling to your ass anymore since they'll be stretched on the shoulder region.

For naturals, you can forget ever getting huge and considerable size deltoid gains (doesn't mean you shouldn't perform side raises though), but more lats, more front and back shoulder, more traps will all combine to give you a wider upper body. Some people will endlessly debate, lament and analyze their muscle insertions, hip to shoulder ratio, wrist size etc. it's a pointless exercise. Yes differences exist, yes there's nothing you can do about it, so might as well just be quiet, keep on training and adding more muscle

[RexImperator]

If you look at anatomical diagrams you can see that the shoulder muscles are on the outside of the arm bones. So making them bigger makes you wider at the top.

"Delts and Tris"

[Fast Eddie]

(04-04-2015 04:46 AM)INegUThenLol Wrote:  

For naturals, you can forget ever getting huge and considerable size deltoid gains (doesn't mean you shouldn't perform side raises though), but more lats, more front and back shoulder, more traps will all combine to give you a wider upper body. Some people will endlessly debate, lament and analyze their muscle insertions, hip to shoulder ratio, wrist size etc. it's a pointless exercise. Yes differences exist, yes there's nothing you can do about it, so might as well just be quiet, keep on training and adding more muscle

Would you guys say that this kind of delt shape and size is achievable without roids? I'm not asking whether Mayweather is on roids or not cause he probably is, but his frame is similar to mine and I'm looking at those delts in that picture as a best case scenario of what I could potentially achieve.

[H1N1]

(04-04-2015 05:14 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

(04-04-2015 04:46 AM)INegUThenLol Wrote:  

For naturals, you can forget ever getting huge and considerable size deltoid gains (doesn't mean you shouldn't perform side raises though), but more lats, more front and back shoulder, more traps will all combine to give you a wider upper body. Some people will endlessly debate, lament and analyze their muscle insertions, hip to shoulder ratio, wrist size etc. it's a pointless exercise. Yes differences exist, yes there's nothing you can do about it, so might as well just be quiet, keep on training and adding more muscle

Would you guys say that this kind of delt shape and size is achievable without roids? I'm not asking whether Mayweather is on roids or not cause he probably is, but his frame is similar to mine and I'm looking at those delts in that picture as a best case scenario of what I could potentially achieve.

If Mayweather is using roids, it isn't for the 'sweet muscular gains brah', it's for boxing-based recovery. It likely has negligible effect on his delts either way, as he is very unlikely to train them in a way that is optimal for JUST building muscle.

Whether or not you can achieve the same delts, who knows, train hard for a few years and see if you can, or if you've surpassed them. Strangers on the internet can't really offer you anything useful by way of response.

That shape/size is easily achievable naturally. Mayweather is 147lbs, and does little/no bodybuilding type training, and eats to stay within a weightclass from which he makes hundreds of millions of dollars. I can't believe anyone would think you need drugs to look like a small, lean man. This is just getting daft.

[Moma]

Fast Eddie, you can get that frame.It's very achievable. He's just cut with a bit of muscle.

[civpro]

(04-03-2015 07:06 PM)Fast Eddie Wrote:  

Not really. I prefer Asians and latinas in that order, but Asians are better suited to my low key introvert personality so I typically focus entirely on them.

Lol, complains about small frame, messes around with the smallest-framed race on earth. Always remember to pull out, lest you create an Elliott Rodger.

And all world class athletes are on vitamin T but yeah that physique is def achievable natty. His head to body ratio is funny