[floor7]

(05-04-2015 03:14 PM)britchard Wrote:  

(05-04-2015 02:44 PM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

(05-04-2015 02:39 PM)britchard Wrote:  

This is the only bit I disagree with. We need a nuclear deterrent.

We have the US. Who exactly do you envisage nuking the UK anyway?

I'd prefer to not rely on the yanks for our nuclear secruity.

You already are.

The UK does not run an independent programme.

[Que enspastic]

Just adumbrate a scenario where one state rationally nukes the UK. Name a country. I'm keen to see how this would play out in that country's favour once the UK no longer exists.

[roberto]

(05-04-2015 03:15 PM)floor7 Wrote:  

(05-04-2015 03:14 PM)britchard Wrote:  

(05-04-2015 02:44 PM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

(05-04-2015 02:39 PM)britchard Wrote:  

This is the only bit I disagree with. We need a nuclear deterrent.

We have the US. Who exactly do you envisage nuking the UK anyway?

I'd prefer to not rely on the yanks for our nuclear secruity.

You already are.

The UK does not run an independent programme.

I liken the UK to America's little brother in a fight. We might be small but we've got the baseball bat you gave us and if someone's giving you shit we'll use it

Unless the SNP/Labour get in. God forbid.

[britchard]

^ We also have the SAS, the world's best fighting unit (other than Little Dark)

[Libertas]

So where do things stand right now?

And when does the voting happen? Next Thursday right?

[LeeEnfield303]

Last I read (today), the SNP is poised to take upwards of 59 seats. That will make it the potential kingmaker in any coalition negotiations. This is widely viewed as an impending disaster by most sober political observers I have read.

[Lizard King]

(05-04-2015 06:46 PM)Libertas Wrote:  

So where do things stand right now?

And when does the voting happen? Next Thursday right?

48 hours to go.

May 7th is election day.

[amity]

For anyone who fancies a wager, here's a decent write-up of how things lie and could pan out (note I have zero affiliation with this site, just visit it sometimes for general betting advice)
http://www.sportinglife.com/bettingzone/...-the-cards
Also tomorrow the Racing Post give their take on events and possible betting options.

[eradicator]

(05-04-2015 04:06 PM)britchard Wrote:  

^ We also have the SAS, the world's best fighting unit (other than Little Dark)

I am curious for you brits, do threads about usa politics seem as confusing to you as the uk politics thread seems to me right now?

[britchard]

Good news. General trend in the polls over the last week or so is that the Tories have a 4 point lead over Labour (this is over many polls and a whole week, unlike to be an anomaly). In addition to this, I've just seen data which shows that at the last 5-6 elections, the Tories did better than they were predicted to.

To be honest I don't really think anything that exciting will happen, and it will just be another 5 years of a 'good enough' con-lib coalition.

[Praetor Lupus]

(05-05-2015 11:50 AM)britchard Wrote:  

Good news. General trend in the polls over the last week or so is that the Tories have a 4 point lead over Labour (this is over many polls and a whole week, unlike to be an anomaly). In addition to this, I've just seen data which shows that at the last 5-6 elections, the Tories did better than they were predicted to.

To be honest I don't really think anything that exciting will happen, and it will just be another 5 years of a 'good enough' con-lib coalition.

In the unlikely event that the Tories win a full majority, I will pour myself a bourbon, light a cigar so big it needs its own fucking tripod, and spend a good hour chilling, the relief that the lefties didn't get into power almost palpable.

[Akula]

(05-04-2015 04:06 PM)britchard Wrote:  

^ We also have the SAS, the world's best fighting unit (other than Little Dark)

Little Dark is former SAS by the way (some say he founded the unit).

I still can't believe how many Britons would STILL vote for Labour. I guess the old allegiances run deep and since the BBC and press have been hammering away at the conservatives and propping up Milliband the average person has a pretty messed up view of political reality.

Funny but on RT today they highlighted how bad Britain's economy really is in many ways and also mentioned that something like $350+ billion of investment outflows have occurred YTD...can this be true? Love RT!

[britchard]

^Some say that Little Dark doesn't use parachutes, he simply spreads out his body.

[Teedub]

(05-05-2015 03:55 PM)Akula Wrote:  

I still can't believe how many Britons would STILL vote for Labour.

Don't get me started on that. Loads, I mean loads of people that I know personally vote tribally. "Anyone but the Conservatives" kind of attitude. Just because they're Northern and think Thatcher was the cause of everything bad that happened to their parents etc. (Note: Labour also closed mines, factories etc - but nobody points that out). It's bullshit.

I think our voting system is shit anyway, I want proportional representation like they have in other Euro countries. You get 30% of the vote? Well, you get 30% of the seats. If we had that, then parties like UKIP and even fringe parties would have a voice. Plus, it would end the insufferable "I'd love to vote for X, but if we don't vote for Y then Z will get in". Just vote for who you actually support! I think more people are doing that to be fair, in spite of our system.

Last but not least, I want the voting age upped to 25 minimum, even 30! Most SJWs grow out of silly student identity politics within a few years post-university, I've seen full-on turnarounds before. I always take pride in the fact that when I was at Uni, I never became even 1% SJW - probably because I did a proper subject and/or didn't socialise with freaks.

[Praetor Lupus]

(05-05-2015 04:19 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

Last but not least, I want the voting age upped to 25 minimum, even 30!

I'm with you on this one. This horseshit about getting 16 year olds to give their fucking opinion on politics and saying they should be allowed to vote. Even for those who are reasonably intelligent and civilised...what life experience have the vast majority had that qualifies them to have a say in things?

[Lizard King]

(05-05-2015 11:50 AM)eradicator Wrote:  

I am curious for you brits, do threads about usa politics seem as confusing to you as the uk politics thread seems to me right now?

You have 2 political parties across the nation, and various levels of government, federal, state etc. And those two parties/groups are the significant political factions.

That's how I see US politics.

In the UK we have 3(4 if you count Northern Ireland, depends on your viewpoint) nations.

• England
• Scotland
• Wales
  

Across all of those nations are 3 main political parties:

• Conservatives(aka Tories)
• Labour
• Liberal Democrats(LibDems)
  

Scotland and Wales have nationalist political parties who want some form of devolvement from the Union. SNP(Scotland) and Plaid Cymru(Wales). They have become more significant in recent years, especially in Scotland.

Northern Ireland is very different. There are many political parties, but mainly on a left-right and Unionist-Republican set of axis. Probably the most famous of these is Sinn Fein, who are 100% republican, and are the political wing of the IRA(Irish Republican Army). They refuse to take their seats in Parliament. The NI political situation is very complex.

The significant smaller parties who are vying for Parliamentary seats across the UK are UKIP and the Green Party, who are mentioned in this thread. Greens are essentially very left wing and idealistic. UKIP are right wing and anti-EU.

Each political party has the chance to field candidates for regions and boroughs of towns and cities. The 3 main parties will have candidates everywhere. The smaller parties have to be more strategic. Each region and borough chooses a candidate who will sit in Parliament.

Which ever party gets the most seats wins. That isn't going to happen this time. No party will meet the required majority, and it will lead to what is called a 'hung parliament'. Two parties will have to form a coalition, and form a government together. We've just had a Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition.

It's quite an outdated political system.

[Teedub]

(05-05-2015 04:39 PM)Praetor Lupus Wrote:  

(05-05-2015 04:19 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

Last but not least, I want the voting age upped to 25 minimum, even 30!

I'm with you on this one. This horseshit about getting 16 year olds to give their fucking opinion on politics and saying they should be allowed to vote. Even for those who are reasonably intelligent and civilised...what life experience have the vast majority had that qualifies them to have a say in things?

Exactly, this 'debate' makes me tear my vastly receding hair out:

I may have posted this before, but it's so infuriating I've done it again. Completely moronic 'students' (some are questionable) shouting down a man with real life experience and knowledge of how the world really works. If I had the power, I'd probably execute some of these idiots, or at the very least, ban them from voting.

(Thankfully, plenty of young people agree - based on the YT comments.)

[Baldwin81]

Complete outsider perspective (take it for the price you're paying to read):

Cameron is like an establishment (country club) Republican in the US on steroids.

Clegg seems like a good politician who kind of fucked himself over by being in a coalition with the Conservatives. It's like he sold out and now has to explain what he's done to his people.

Milliband is such a snivel-dick. Labour must be suffering from a hangover after Gordon Brown / Tony Blair if Milliband is the best they can find as the face of the party.

If circumstances were different it seems like Nicola Sturgeon would have been Labour. She seems like the kind of person Labour should run... less effete than Milliband and can trash talk just as well as anyone else. She does have the luxury of always being on the offensive since the SNP is so popular in Scotland right now.

The Welsh lady has a very pleasant voice, but seems crazy below the surface.

The green party lady looks like exactly what I pictured a green party person to look like.

Nigel Farage is like a UK equivalent of the a libertarian. They really hate on him the same way the media hated on Ron Paul in the US.

[Novatore]

(05-05-2015 05:23 PM)Baldwin81 Wrote:  

Complete outsider perspective (take it for the price you're paying to read):

Cameron is like an establishment (country club) Republican in the US on steroids.

Cameron is a 5th cousin of the Queen and is descended from a whole load of other notables: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron


Still seems more like a regular guy than this chap though:

[Baldwin81]

(05-05-2015 06:39 PM)Novatore Wrote:  

Cameron is a 5th cousin of the Queen and is descended from a whole load of other notables: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_David_Cameron


Still seems more like a regular guy than this chap though:

Haha. That guy seems like Cameron's dorky cousin who reads every single word of every policy paper. This is all common knowledge to you all I'm sure, but the way that guy draws out his "eeers" compared to the South Shields people is striking. That's like the US equivalent of a manor house owner / racehorse breeder in northern Maryland campaigning in the city of Baltimore. It seems like the South Shields people and their ilk are the ones that the establishment worries will defect to UKIP.

Cameron is related to Osborne, Boris Johnson, and the Queen. Shit, Britain sure knows how to do an "old boy network..."

I'm going to stop with my relatively uninformed opinions, but enjoy the election. Even if it's all the same bullshit in the end, at least you get to choose between more than two parties.

[Basil Ransom]

Ha I like Mogg. His accent isn't too different from yesterday's American yankee blue blood accent, the Mid-Atlantic accent.

[Constitution45]

I've been speaking to a few graduates recently, they all are relatively smart and making their way in the world, either by being lawyers or insurance brokers. Not to mock but they didn't have a basic idea of how the economy works. I was explaining that high taxes and increasing the minimum wage, will just kill off the competition and lead to Tesco or the government being the main employer. They just have never been presented with that viewpoint before.

In the end of the day if the country truly votes for whatever party, then thats who they ultimately deserve to have.

[Que enspastic]

I find it really easy to get left-wing people to agree with UKIP policies.
- Do you think it's unfair to operate an immigration system that discrimates against people based on their nationality ?
- Do you think the UK should be more democratic by allowing people to directly voice their view on policies and bring new laws to a vote by referendum ?
- Do you think the government should do more to stop thousands of recent university graduates finding themselves unemployed in a competitive job market ?
- Do you think respecting the cultural background of a country is important ?
- Do you think we should take measures to prevent the erosion of the minimum wage so working families can live with dignity ?
- Do you thinking working class people should have their views represented in Parliament ?

However, the moment you say do you agree with UKIP's policy on said matter the automatic answer is no, even if they just voiced support for it.

[Que enspastic]

I find it really easy to get left-wing people to agree with UKIP policies.
- Do you think it's unfair to operate an immigration system that discrimates against people based on their nationality ?
- Do you think the UK should be more democratic by allowing people to directly voice their view on policies and bring new laws to a vote by referendum ?
- Do you think the government should do more to stop thousands of recent university graduates finding themselves unemployed in a competitive job market ?
- Do you think respecting the cultural background of a country is important ?
- Do you think we should take measures to prevent the erosion of the minimum wage so working families can live with dignity ?
- Do you thinking working class people should have their views represented in Parliament ?

However, the moment you say do you agree with UKIP's policy on said matter the automatic answer is no, even if they just voiced support for it.

[Novatore]

(05-06-2015 06:34 AM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

I find it really easy to get left-wing people to agree with UKIP policies.
- Do you think it's unfair to operate an immigration system that discrimates against people based on their nationality ?
- Do you think the UK should be more democratic by allowing people to directly voice their view on policies and bring new laws to a vote by referendum ?
- Do you think the government should do more to stop thousands of recent university graduates finding themselves unemployed in a competitive job market ?
- Do you think respecting the cultural background of a country is important ?
- Do you think we should take measures to prevent the erosion of the minimum wage so working families can live with dignity ?
- Do you thinking working class people should have their views represented in Parliament ?

However, the moment you say do you agree with UKIP's policy on said matter the automatic answer is no, even if they just voiced support for it.

Most of these sound like vague aims rather than specific policies. I imagine many people across the political spectrum would agree with them, but might disagree with how you would go about achieving them.

(05-06-2015 06:34 AM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

- Do you think it's unfair to operate an immigration system that discrimates against people based on their nationality ?

You could make an argument that citizens of certain countries are more likely to integrate, due to national culture and economic development.

(05-06-2015 06:34 AM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

- Do you think the UK should be more democratic by allowing people to directly voice their view on policies and bring new laws to a vote by referendum ?

I'm going to assume you are talking about this:

Quote:

The Citizens’ Initiative:
Every two years we will
allow a national referendum on the issues of greatest
importance to the British public, gathered via an
approved petition, provided the petition has more
than two million signatures. The outcome of these
referendums will be included in the Queen’s Speech,
therefore allowing the public to directly influence
legislation. We will also pledge to put matters
gathering over 100,000 signatures on the Commons’
Order Paper, to make sure they are genuinely debated
and voted upon, not simply brushed over, as currently
happens.

I don't anything to disagree with here, although I'd like to see things go much further.

(05-06-2015 06:34 AM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

- Do you think the government should do more to stop thousands of recent university graduates finding themselves unemployed in a competitive job market ?

All I could find in their manifesto about this was

Quote:

UKIP will drop the arbitrary 50 per cent target for school leavers going to university. We will not increase the current level of undergraduate courses
until we can be sure there are sufficient vacancies in the
economy to provide at least two-thirds of students with
skilled graduate jobs.
We will also encourage students to choose careers that will
help fill the current skills’ gap, to both benefit Britain and
set them on the path to a solid, prosperous career.

So they don't actually specify anything they will do to help.

(05-06-2015 06:34 AM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

- Do you think respecting the cultural background of a country is important ?

What does this even mean? Which parties aren't respecting the cultural background of countries?

(05-06-2015 06:34 AM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

- Do you think we should take measures to prevent the erosion of the minimum wage so working families can live with dignity ?

Their manifesto just mentions enforcing the minimum wage and stopping immigrants from undercutting wages. Most leftists would agree that under the current system the minimum wage needs to be enforced. They would add that when immigrants are brought in to undercut wages this is an example of the capitalist class undermining local labour's bargaining power, and that both the local workers and the immigrants are being exploited.

(05-06-2015 06:34 AM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

- Do you thinking working class people should have their views represented in Parliament ?

Again, what does this mean? What makes UKIP any more working class than the other parties?

(05-06-2015 06:34 AM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

However, the moment you say do you agree with UKIP's policy on said matter the automatic answer is no, even if they just voiced support for it.

Obviously this is childish, good ideas are good ideas, irrespective of where they come from, and it's naive to assume you would disagree with everything a party says just because they have a different world view. I've done the vote for policies quiz and agreed with at least a few policies from every party, from the Greens to UKIP to the Tories to Labour to the BNP. Doesn't mean I like or trust any of them though.