[iknowexactly]

Real Life Story, this morning:

Looking for a chair on Craigslist, emailed about one and got a call from
the female owning it.
(In my email it lists my health care professional title, including
my license number, cell and fax. It takes at least 6 years of study as well as a criminal background clearance to get my license.)

She lived seven blocks away, and she volunteered to put it in her car and bring it over.

Not knowing whether I'd like it, I said I'd come take a look and then I could help her load if we made a deal.

She was somewhat apologetic, but said because it was craigslist she was worried about having someone come over, and she asked where my office was.

I told her about the prestigious and long established place I worked, which has been there for decades and which she had definitely heard of.

I gave her the number of the department secretary and said she could call, although internally I was already deciding not to buy the chair.

After that, getting it together enough to establish frame control, I asked
"And how do I know YOU'RE not crazy?"

She kind of sheepishly said "Because I'm a girl and you're a guy." She tried to backtrack, "Oh, I'm sure it will be alright ."

I said "Well, call them up and you'll find out what you need to know. Gotta go. Bye."

In a way, I feel sorry for her, because this crazy thing with people thinking there's a serial killer around every corner has people hiding in shells.

But she was only half apologetic about her problem being our genders.

Imagine saying such a thing because a caller was Black, or some other demographic group?
It would be unthinkably rude. But it's OK to tell men that they are likely to be some kind of monster.

This reinforces my confidence in my long-held determination to leave America permanently.

ANYONE can follow you home if they're some kind of predator. They don't need to call up
and pretend to be prosocial. Of course, statistically there are more violent male predators, but
the number of out and out crazies is really pretty low.

It seems overly simplistic, but it really seems the possibility that having three different versions of CSI running
at any given time makes people more afraid of each other than is optimal.

I just don't see this sad paranoia in the other countries I've been in.

[kerouac]

You don't see this kind of paranoia in other countries because in other countries people are a bit more settled, so there are long-lasting reputations. In the United States, and particularly in places like the West Coast, where the majority of people are transplants, people are not as trusting of each other because everyone here is relatively new and from different places, and they might not be here tomorrow.

And then, you hear on the news about guys who go on online dating websites, and craigslist, and do some creepy ass shit.

I don't think paranoia is an unfortunate thing in this situation.

I've sold shit on craigslist before, and I don't like it when the random person comes to my house. There's just something about separation of business and life that makes doing business from your home a bit weird, because in the case of a regular business, if a person does not like your product they return it to the business, whereas in this case there is no separation of life and business so there is more case for paranoia.

[Kish]

I bet she watched this movie

I blame the media and movies.

[nomadicdude]

I met an American who calls it "stranger danger" and yeah, I don't see it nearly as much outside the US.

People are just afraid of each other in the US. Neighbours usually don't talk or even really know each other. People walking down the street in the middle of the day still watch their back. Everyone is suspicious of each other's intentions.

Most places abroad it is totally different. You go to a restaurant and if all the tables are taken you can just sit at someone else's table and they won't care. Imagine doing that in the US. Some people would freak out. Similarly, people are much more likely to engage in conversation with strangers, even women in some places wouldn't get their panties in a bunch if they had to talk to a male because they sat next to him on a bus or something. And in crowded areas people don't mind as much if someone bumps into them, whereas in the US that is a major problem.

So overall it's sorta sad. The US has created this society where people are so afraid of each other that it impacts so many little aspects of life. I never realized this until I got out and started travelling long term abroad. It is sad.

[Gmac]

The media is almost solely to blame for this type of thinking. News outlets have been scaring women for years into thinking there are predators at every corner. It's all propaganda. The key is to do exactly what you did, control the frame and make them realize they're acting too paranoid and irrational.

[Tuthmosis]

(05-13-2011 07:20 AM)nomadicdude Wrote:  

People are just afraid of each other in the US. Neighbours usually don't talk or even really know each other. People walking down the street in the middle of the day still watch their back. Everyone is suspicious of each other's intentions.

People are afraid and suspicious of each other in the U.S., but as kerouac points out, I'm much the same way when I sell shit on Craigslist. Even though I'm not scared of very much, I still don't like people up in my house. Fear and suspicion is just part of American culture--especially in recent decades. Fuck, we occupied two countries, re-organized half of our legal code, and killed hundreds of thousands of people, over a ten-year period, just because of one major terrorist act. We've become paranoid, trigger-happy, over-reacting MFers. Why this is--and who's responsible--is another discussion entirely.

We can exploit this culture of fear. I'd argue that it works to the benefit of students of game. Dudes with no game do okay in a place where strangers just talk to each other and girls are friendly by default. It's like the shallow end of the pool: nothing to fear. In countries where girls are simply accustomed to talking to strangers, regular guys are bolder and less afraid to approach. They simply don't expect rejection. Also, girls abroad may have a friendly conversation with you in the line for coffee, but is more likely to think of you as a potential "friend." You have to work a little harder to differentiate yourself as something other than another "friendly guy." As a result, I'd argue that's why I've noticed that sausage orbiters and "mixed groups" are epidemic in certain countries abroad.

In the U.S., girls are initially suspicious. More guys are afraid to cross the stranger divide, which rewards those guys (like us) with actual game and boldness. Betas and the timid are discouraged by default. When you do talk to a stranger--especially if you're direct about it--intentions are clearer. It's harder for her to chalk up your approach as the "universal friendliness" everyone exhibits. You stand out. This is why the 80-20 Rule (80 percent of the girls being fucked by 20 percent of the guys) is an American phenomenon.

Ironically, those timid betas that are too scared to approach in the U.S.--and never get laid as a result--become so sexually frustrated that they end up killing 56 girls in a 30-year serial-killing spree. That gets covered in the news ad naseum, making girls further suspicious and scared of strangers.

It's the circle of life.

[iknowexactly]

(05-13-2011 12:59 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

We can exploit this culture of fear. I'd argue that it works to the benefit of students of game.

You've pointed out well the compensating, inevitable flip side of what I was complaining about.

The result of X% of US women being haughty, spoiled, paranoid, and standoffish is that the other (100-X) % who actually have some sense of mutuality in a relationship, and a basic sense of fairness (if not logic) are starved for attention and waiting to be really nice to a guy who makes some effort.

I see it often when I open, they are really pleasantly surprised that someone will talk to them.

I absolutely think you are right that we can exploit the other side of American Paranoia, and although at first I thought sexual frustration was a superficial explanation for something as ghastly as serial killing, I then asked myself, am I missing something or are there hardly any of these crazies that kill 10-20 women in Europe? I never hear news reports about it.

Of course, as the first commenter noted, America is a more highly mobile society so it's easier to get away with such atrocities here.

Now the more fun question, I'm allowed to hijack my own thread right? --Solve for X when X is defined as women 6+ (by your standards) who have
either (1) or (2) :
1) Severely overinflated idea of their own market value. So spoiled not worth dealing with them.
2) Creepy paranoia about men, thinking more than 1% of guys are violent predators
( The real percentage is less than 1/10 one percent at the most, I've done extensive research on criminology)

[oldnemesis]

(05-13-2011 12:59 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

Even though I'm not scared of very much, I still don't like people up in my house. Fear and suspicion is just part of American culture--especially in recent decades.

It was always like that. They taught us in USSR schools that a typical American reaction to anything is hysteria. And while a lot of what we were taught was just some stupid propaganda bullshit, this one was definitely the case. Americans react with hysteria on every common things. Just look on Tiger Woods divorce; a married dude had an affair, and his wife found out - oh that's fucking major news! Even Japan situation receives much less coverage than this very ordinary event.

Often I hear that this is the media to blame. No, it is not. The media just shows/prints what the people want to see/hear. Half of the "news" I suffer to see on TV when I go to gym would be considered tabloids no responsible channel in Europe would show, and the channel would become tabloid very fast after that.

[sylo]

It was always like that. They taught us in USSR schools that a typical American reaction to anything is hysteria.



Glad to see you have a reliable source.

[Gmac]

(05-13-2011 03:52 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(05-13-2011 12:59 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

Even though I'm not scared of very much, I still don't like people up in my house. Fear and suspicion is just part of American culture--especially in recent decades.

It was always like that. They taught us in USSR schools that a typical American reaction to anything is hysteria. And while a lot of what we were taught was just some stupid propaganda bullshit, this one was definitely the case. Americans react with hysteria on every common things. Just look on Tiger Woods divorce; a married dude had an affair, and his wife found out - oh that's fucking major news! Even Japan situation receives much less coverage than this very ordinary event.

Often I hear that this is the media to blame. No, it is not. The media just shows/prints what the people want to see/hear. Half of the "news" I suffer to see on TV when I go to gym would be considered tabloids no responsible channel in Europe would show, and the channel would become tabloid very fast after that.

I wasn't giving you an opinion there when I said media was to blame for the majority of the "paranoia", that was a fact.

[CupCake]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who's been experiencing this problem. It only took a handful of dates to convince me that many American women are simply afraid to date. I always thought the problem was me but it turns out that many American women think everyone is a potential "creeper". I imagine this is what is keeping a lot of men from getting aggressive in the field. They're too scared to come off as the potential rapist. Coming to realize that approaching women is not "wrong" was the most important thing to happen to me in recent years.

I used to have a roommate that was terrified of men and was a professed lesbian. We had a discussion about rape once and she insisted that it was VERY common. We cracked out some laptops and did some research on the matter. Turned out rape wasn't NEARLY as common as she thought and, more surprisingly, most rapes were committed by men the victim knew, in places the victim was familiar with, and usually during her childhood or adolescence. My roommate simply refused to believe that she was more likely to be raped by her dad as a kid than be raped in an alley by someone her age.

This contrasted greatly with an experience I had years prior while abroad in Italy. I met an Italian girl on a hike there and she was holding my arm walking through dark streets after only knowing me two days. My first thought was "Lady, what if I rape you or something?" I cared more than she did. She was personal and kind from the start.

These experiences have greatly shaped my perception of American women.

If you want any more insight into this phenomenon check out Lifetime Television movies. I swear they're all about rape, stalking, and domestic abuse.

[oldnemesis]

(05-13-2011 07:46 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

I wasn't giving you an opinion there when I said media was to blame for the majority of the "paranoia", that was a fact.

Disagree. For example, I do not know any Russian among those living in US who is such paranoid/hysterical person - and we read (and some even watch) the same media. Trust me, no amount of media coverage would make me to consider Tiger Woods story as something newsworthy. Media writes about celebrities because the people want to read it. Same media writes about the "horrible things" happened somewhere because the people want to read it as well. It is easy to see if you compare BBC and CNN.

[nomadicdude]

(05-13-2011 11:02 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(05-13-2011 07:46 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

I wasn't giving you an opinion there when I said media was to blame for the majority of the "paranoia", that was a fact.

Disagree. For example, I do not know any Russian among those living in US who is such paranoid/hysterical person - and we read (and some even watch) the same media. Trust me, no amount of media coverage would make me to consider Tiger Woods story as something newsworthy. Media writes about celebrities because the people want to read it. Same media writes about the "horrible things" happened somewhere because the people want to read it as well. It is easy to see if you compare BBC and CNN.

Maybe the problem is that most Americans just don't have the ability to think. They get brainwashed from whatever fucking news/media sources they follow. In contrast, people who grow up in other countries generally (I find at least) to have a better ability at grasping information and analysing it and coming up with their own conclusions. What I am saying is that a majority of Americans (definitely not all) are just stupid as fuck and this applies to American women and their irrational fears of men that you rarely see elsewhere in the world.

[Chad Daring]

Growing up in America I remember the motto of being young was "dont talk to strangers" we're taught from a very young age if you don't know someone, dont ever ever talk to them. It really is sad that we indoctrinate our children into this mindset simply because a few isolated cases were brought into the light by rabid fear mongering news stations that know the only thing that sells better then sex is fear.

[CrackerJack]

In societies where life is valued individually it is easy for media to fear monger. Fear sells, just like sex. Developing countries like Russia, China, India, etc., are almost numb to loss of life as it happens so regularly.

Bigger towns and cities also have a lot of transient workers, you may not know your neighbors for more than 6 months and develop some trust.

I remember visiting a friend in a small town in Holland back in the 90s. We had a fairly big party and run out of beer. We took the empty cases and went to a store way past midnight. We came to the store and opened the gate and went inside (it wasn't locked!), put the empties back and took a few cases of Amstel. I asked if he's related and how he's going to pay, he just said he's not related and will pay the next day. Nobody even bothered to lock the house. I'm pretty sure this wouldn't happen in Amsterdam.

After the immigration wave things have changed.

[Gmac]

(05-13-2011 11:02 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(05-13-2011 07:46 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

I wasn't giving you an opinion there when I said media was to blame for the majority of the "paranoia", that was a fact.

Disagree. For example, I do not know any Russian among those living in US who is such paranoid/hysterical person - and we read (and some even watch) the same media. Trust me, no amount of media coverage would make me to consider Tiger Woods story as something newsworthy. Media writes about celebrities because the people want to read it. Same media writes about the "horrible things" happened somewhere because the people want to read it as well. It is easy to see if you compare BBC and CNN.

There is a big difference between a Russian living in the US and an American growing up watching this kind of news their entire lives.

[oldnemesis]

(05-14-2011 01:20 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

There is a big difference between a Russian living in the US and an American growing up watching this kind of news their entire lives.

If their parents are too brainwashed and not willing to control what their kids watch - which is integral part of parenting - I wouldn't blame media for that. No media forces anyone to watch those news, and my kids do not watch them.

[Gmac]

(05-14-2011 07:46 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(05-14-2011 01:20 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

There is a big difference between a Russian living in the US and an American growing up watching this kind of news their entire lives.

If their parents are too brainwashed and not willing to control what their kids watch - which is integral part of parenting - I wouldn't blame media for that. No media forces anyone to watch those news, and my kids do not watch them.

I don't assume to know your culture inside and out... so I don't expect you to understand mine. I'm just telling you how it is.

[CupCake]

True story:

As a rule, I don't allow girls I meet online to "get to know me" by phone (i.e. interrogate me) because that is the purpose of us actually going on a date. Many seem to think that "text-dating", as I like to call it, is a way to calm their paranoia. I don't feed into it. My philosophy has always been that if you're too afraid to meet strangers then you shouldn't be attempting to meet people from the internet. A certain level of courage is required.

A girl contacted me online a month ago and we've been keeping in touch until she moved to my area. She seemed somewhat excited to hear back from me and I was relieved that I would probably not have to deal with any flaking for once. I had a really shitty day on the day we were supposed to meet and I texted her to reschedule for the following day. Her response:

"Yeah, we can meet tomorrow or next weekend, but I'm not meeting you alone."

I asked if she was serious.

She said that I haven't told her anything about myself and...

"...it just seems like this could be the beginning of a bad Liftetime movie."

See my previous post. I can't believe the coincidence.

[oldnemesis]

(05-14-2011 08:15 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

I don't assume to know your culture inside and out... so I don't expect you to understand mine. I'm just telling you how it is.

I don't think anyone can claim they know any culture inside and out. But this is irrelevant. Blaming media for spreading paranoia is the same as blaming McDonalds for making people fat. Yes, their food is not healthy, but it is the people who ultimately decide to eat it.

[Chad Daring]

I think the point that Gmac is trying to make is that unlike the fat person at McDonalds who has options, for the most part all American news has the same fear infused vibe. Doesn't matter if its Faux News or CNN, they tell the same stories from a different side.

Its only in recent years that other foreign news stations (BBC, Aljazeera) have become available to your average American.

Growing up exposed only to American news broadcasts, I can see a definite difference in what kind of stories are presented, and how they are presented on these foreign news stations vs American news.

Whats more is that "watching the news" is somewhat of a social proof in this country. I've told people that are my age (early 20s) that I dont watch the news and they almost scoff at me.

[Gmac]

(05-15-2011 08:06 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(05-14-2011 08:15 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

I don't assume to know your culture inside and out... so I don't expect you to understand mine. I'm just telling you how it is.

I don't think anyone can claim they know any culture inside and out. But this is irrelevant. Blaming media for spreading paranoia is the same as blaming McDonalds for making people fat. Yes, their food is not healthy, but it is the people who ultimately decide to eat it.

It's not even close to the same -- you're comparing apples to oranges.

Do I really need to go into all of the reasons why?

[oldnemesis]

@Chad Daring, thanks for detailed explanation, got it now. CNN is actually good, I read it online (hate the "video news" part though), but I read a lot of foreign news, mostly Russian/European though.
A concept of "watching news", however, is something completely foreign for me. Well, maybe they can't read.

[smilingwolf]

The meida as a tool of those in power, provoke, expand, and plant fear into the American psyche, but escpecially into the psyche of the American women who make sheep look fearless.

Our women are so easily cowed and terrorized, they can be manipulated and cajoled into just about any lame brained notion of behavior,including their behaviors and attitudes towards the men folk.

Therse are all signs of a society and a culture on the decline. We live in a fear based, distrustful, terrified society and our women are the supreme symptom of this collective disease.

[Vitriol]

For those of you not from the U.S. this is the kind of garbage we have to compete with:

Notice who is acting the most "manly" in this video.