[The Beast1]

(02-28-2015 03:27 PM)dreambig Wrote:  

Sometimes what a super skinny guy needs is to know that he CAN actually gain mass.

Drinking a ton of milk will show him that it's possible.

There are too many hard gainers who believe they are somehow special in their inability to put on weight. They piss me off because I was one of them. I was one of them until I tried GOMAD and packed on a lot of mass in a short time period.

It's not always about the most efficient or healthiest solution, but a method that works for even the skinniest motherfucker. 4 weeks of GOMAD is not going to ruin your health. 6-12 months? That's a different story.

Agreed, Gomad was what taught me that it was possible for me to not only put on mass but gain fat. I had a fat man's chin by the time I started cutting. I was fat, but it felt amazing to be fat and not hungry all of the time.

I did it for 5 months sooo yeah. There was some damage that needed to be undone

[Saladin]

(02-28-2015 02:01 AM)DrewP Wrote:  

I'm one of the most extreme natural ectomorphs you could ever imagine. I've been lifting regularly for years and gained fantastic definition but very little size. My arms are still skinny, but my muscles stick out in a way that people seem to have never seen before- once I had a girl point to my tricep and ask "why does that part of your arm stick out like that?" And someone once told me my bicep looks like a giant tumor jutting out of my arm. I'm THAT level of skinny but defined.

Anyway, I'm wondering what people think about rectifying my situation with ultra dense junk food? Just because I'm pretty sure I'm physically incapable of eating enough healthy food to gain weight.

My only reservation is the possibility that it would all go to my gut and I'd end up skinny-fat. Note that I do NOT currently have a six pack unless I flex my ab muscles (and even then it's pretty faint), so my stomach isn't flab-free as is.

So I guess the ultimate question is this: Can you thicken your arms and build muscle via junk food, or does it all end up as gut flab?

Try counting how much you eat first and see what's going with that.

I don't believe in the junk food bulking idea. Its super unhealthy for you and will result in making you feel like shit. You can get your calories through cleaner methods quite easily.

[DrewP]

Not sure I follow the idea behind excessive milk consumption. I get that it's a way to up my calorie intake, but is a calorie from milk not the same as a calorie from a burger? Maybe the milk has some valuable nutrients, but then can't I just have a glass of milk with my Big Mac?

Also, I don't doubt that I could gain weight with some extreme calorie-dense diet; the issue is whether I'll look more muscular, or end up like one of those pathetic dudes with skinny arms and a nasty beer gut at the same time. At least now I'm in pretty good shape, so I don't want to start something that'll make me worse off.

[Bushido]

(02-28-2015 08:02 PM)DrewP Wrote:  

Not sure I follow the idea behind excessive milk consumption. I get that it's a way to up my calorie intake, but is a calorie from milk not the same as a calorie from a burger? Maybe the milk has some valuable nutrients, but then can't I just have a glass of milk with my Big Mac?

Cheapness, protein and saturated fat are some reasons for milk. But maybe the main one is that it's really easy to consume. Like you said in your OP, you are having trouble eating enough food. Most people can drink a few pints more milk on top of meals, but adding 2 or 3 more full meals is really hard for an ectomorph.

(02-28-2015 08:02 PM)DrewP Wrote:  

Also, I don't doubt that I could gain weight with some extreme calorie-dense diet; the issue is whether I'll look more muscular, or end up like one of those pathetic dudes with skinny arms and a nasty beer gut at the same time. At least now I'm in pretty good shape, so I don't want to start something that'll make me worse off.

If you are training correctly and getting a calorie surplus with sufficient protein then you are going to gain mass, i.e. muscle and some fat. This is the root problem with hardgainers though - you want the muscle without putting on any fat. Ain't gonna happen, especially if you have been training for years like you say.

The simple answer is that you can stop the calorie surplus in its tracks whenever you want. You aren't suddenly getting a beer belly out of nowhere - nobody goes from super-skinny to 25% body fat overnight. So my advice would be to simply gain some mass with whatever method it may be (milk is just one easy way) until you want to cut down again.

[Switch]

Find a way to hit 4 or 5 thousand calories per day every day for a month. Try to do this with as healthy food at possible, but if you need to throw in some ice cream and chocolate to get there, so be it. If you don't put on any weight, see a doctor, you might need something special or have a parasite or something.

[aeroektar]

(02-28-2015 08:02 PM)DrewP Wrote:  

Not sure I follow the idea behind excessive milk consumption. I get that it's a way to up my calorie intake, but is a calorie from milk not the same as a calorie from a burger? Maybe the milk has some valuable nutrients, but then can't I just have a glass of milk with my Big Mac?

Also, I don't doubt that I could gain weight with some extreme calorie-dense diet; the issue is whether I'll look more muscular, or end up like one of those pathetic dudes with skinny arms and a nasty beer gut at the same time. At least now I'm in pretty good shape, so I don't want to start something that'll make me worse off.

So your skinny, but defined and in good shape, and are considering eating junk food but don't want to get fat? You want to get more muscular, or just gain size period (fat and muscle)?

I was a skinny fuck, classic hardgainer, gomad was the most effective solution I found to just plain put on size, but after doing it I realized I didn't want to get fat, which was happening. Once I stopped gomad I leaned out quick.

Honestly, I eat however I want. I make sure I'm getting enough protein and veggies/fruits, I just kinda let the rest fall into place how it will. I have it a little more planned out then that but its pretty simple. I've found that even with eating junk a few times a week (subs, starbucks food, cake and shit), I manage to stay at the same low BF% while gaining muscle.

I think us naturally skinny guys have room for error in our diets that other guys who find it easier to gain fat don't. The thing is, we have to make sure we are getting enough in or we stay skinny.

Its a balancing act, you just have to learn to eat more, and the easiest way to do that is to adapt to eating more in one sitting, and getting used to doing it several times a day. Fuck trying to eat 5 or 6 meals a day, learn to eat 2 or 3 big ass meals a day that meet your protein requirements. It might seem hard at first but after a while you will LOVE eating big meals.

[StrikeBack]

Before we go off on speculations (ah, too late...) let's have some facts:

- Exactly how long have you been lifting?
- What sorts of weights (and sets x reps) are you doing now?
- Your current weight (and BF% if you do know) and height
- Your daily total calorie intake, and macro breakdown (Protein : Carbs : Fats)?

Usually by the time I go through the above with skinny guys who swear they can't gain mass and therefore need to GOMAD like a baby cow, it becomes obvious that they are lifting too light weights, they haven't been lifting for very long and they're not eating enough proteins. They have no idea how much they're eating either (not much), they just tell me "I eat heaps!"

Get the above facts, then devise a strategy. If you have no idea what those things are, you're taking shots in the dark, and any random Internet broscience BS (like: let's eat tons of crappy fast foods!) suddenly becomes your shining beacon of light.

Also, be patient. Quick fixes can bring many big problems down the track. "Gainz muscles fast NOW!" benefits the advertisers, not you.

[Deluge]

Lift heavier. Eat more.

[Fortis]

The point I was making is that the OP should start with small tweaks to his caloric intake and then increase as needed. He might only be 500 calories away from making all kinds of gains. OR 1,000, or 1,250, or 1500. Who knows? I don't think increasing calories by 2,000 off the bat is that smart for a skinny fat guy. He said he doesn't have a six pack, but he's skinny. I'm going to assume he's at least 15% BF and skinny fat.

[DrewP]

(03-01-2015 02:20 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

Before we go off on speculations (ah, too late...) let's have some facts:

- Exactly how long have you been lifting?
- What sorts of weights (and sets x reps) are you doing now?
- Your current weight (and BF% if you do know) and height
- Your daily total calorie intake, and macro breakdown (Protein : Carbs : Fats)?

Usually by the time I go through the above with skinny guys who swear they can't gain mass and therefore need to GOMAD like a baby cow, it becomes obvious that they are lifting too light weights, they haven't been lifting for very long and they're not eating enough proteins. They have no idea how much they're eating either (not much), they just tell me "I eat heaps!"

Get the above facts, then devise a strategy. If you have no idea what those things are, you're taking shots in the dark, and any random Internet broscience BS (like: let's eat tons of crappy fast foods!) suddenly becomes your shining beacon of light.

Also, be patient. Quick fixes can bring many big problems down the track. "Gainz muscles fast NOW!" benefits the advertisers, not you.

1. Been lifting for maybe 8 years now? Don't remember exactly when I started.
2. I vary my exercises all the time, but lately I've been favoring compounds (e.g. pullups, pushups) because I have a pretty demanding career and want to be time efficient. In terms of sets x reps, let's use pullups as an example- I usually do 6 or 7 sets to failure, leading to 50-60 total pullups.
3. 5'11" 160-ish, no idea on body fat %.
4. Don't keep track at all. I pretty much just eat what I want, and then tack on some fruits and veggies for nutrition. I'm pretty positive I get ample protein though; I read nutrition labels now and then, and some single meals I eat are >100% DV of protein.

[Giovonny]

""You are what you eat"

That's all the diet advice that we need!

Junk food produces a junk body!

The only exception is if you are young + great genetics + working out for hours per day.

Edit: A little junk food is okay in moderation

[aeroektar]

(03-01-2015 12:59 PM)DrewP Wrote:  

Been lifting for maybe 8 years now.

I usually do 6 or 7 sets to failure, leading to 50-60 total pullups.

Your not trying hard enough. Not even close. I think this is a classic case of you know what you need to do, but don't do it, because after 8 years, or even 1 year, you should be able to do better then that with your type of body.

[Pestilence]

I know most people are saying bulk.

It's not bad advice but if you truly don't want to get a tummy, cut down heavily. You say you can't see your abs? Make sure you do. Get your body into such a fit state.

Then start bulking. It's easier to bulk and cut when you start at 8% bf.

[DrewP]

(03-01-2015 01:17 PM)aeroektar Wrote:  

(03-01-2015 12:59 PM)DrewP Wrote:  

Been lifting for maybe 8 years now.

I usually do 6 or 7 sets to failure, leading to 50-60 total pullups.

Your not trying hard enough. Not even close. I think this is a classic case of you know what you need to do, but don't do it, because after 8 years, or even 1 year, you should be able to do better then that with your type of body.

Huh?? According to this guy, being able to get 20 in a single set is considered "perfect" in the Marine Corps physical fitness test. I can [barely] get 20 in a single set, therefore, I'm dong quote well even by Marine standards. And before you ask, yes, 20 in the first set does translate to 50-60 over 6-7 sets, because that shit turns your arms to jelly very quickly.

[aeroektar]

(03-01-2015 01:45 PM)DrewP Wrote:  

(03-01-2015 01:17 PM)aeroektar Wrote:  

(03-01-2015 12:59 PM)DrewP Wrote:  

Been lifting for maybe 8 years now.

I usually do 6 or 7 sets to failure, leading to 50-60 total pullups.

Your not trying hard enough. Not even close. I think this is a classic case of you know what you need to do, but don't do it, because after 8 years, or even 1 year, you should be able to do better then that with your type of body.

Huh?? According to this guy, being able to get 20 in a single set is considered "perfect" in the Marine Corps physical fitness test. I can [barely] get 20 in a single set, therefore, I'm dong quote well even by Marine standards. And before you ask, yes, 20 in the first set does translate to 50-60 over 6-7 sets, because that shit turns your arms to jelly very quickly.

Throw some weights in a backpack, start with 25lbs, eventually you will see what I mean. And don't be afraid to give yourself more rest, yes your arms turn to jelly doing pull ups, but unless your training mainly for muscle endurance, there's no sense in jumping back on the bar while your arms are still smoked.

[H1N1]

(03-01-2015 01:45 PM)DrewP Wrote:  

(03-01-2015 01:17 PM)aeroektar Wrote:  

(03-01-2015 12:59 PM)DrewP Wrote:  

Been lifting for maybe 8 years now.

I usually do 6 or 7 sets to failure, leading to 50-60 total pullups.

Your not trying hard enough. Not even close. I think this is a classic case of you know what you need to do, but don't do it, because after 8 years, or even 1 year, you should be able to do better then that with your type of body.

Huh?? According to this guy, being able to get 20 in a single set is considered "perfect" in the Marine Corps physical fitness test. I can [barely] get 20 in a single set, therefore, I'm dong quote well even by Marine standards. And before you ask, yes, 20 in the first set does translate to 50-60 over 6-7 sets, because that shit turns your arms to jelly very quickly.

Ye, this is most likely why you aren't able to put on weight - you're simply not giving yourself sufficient stimulus. 8 years and you can only hit 60 odd pullups in 7 sets, that's not brilliant, given how skinny/light you are. You need to vary the the weight/resistence to stimulate your muscles. Most likely you aren't improving because you are just maintaining a level you reached a long time ago. Buy a weight vest, or put some rocks in a backpack, and do your pushups and pullups with them.

Or, better yet (I say this in most threads), buy a £12 army bergen and fill it with dirt. Now you have an entire gym - presses, rows, squats, carries, deadlifts, shoulders etc. Get to the point where you can press a full sandbag (c.80kg) overhead, and you'll have a hell of an appetite and some big muscles.

[DrewP]

Let me clarify something, since it seems I've led people to believe I'm an Auschwitz survivor: I weigh 160, and according to BMI, am closer to being overweight than underweight. I just have a very wiry look that I'd like to change, but I'm not some freakishly light toothpick.

[mickeyd]

Even if you want to gain mass, I'd advise against heavy calorie intake. Body fat isnt extremely hard to lose, but losing that last bit of fat ( going sub 10% ) is always a difficult process. if youre already at that lean level, stay there, look good year-round, and be patient with muscle gain. keep a proper diet, bump up your carbs some but dont go overboard.

[StrikeBack]

(03-01-2015 12:59 PM)DrewP Wrote:  

1. Been lifting for maybe 8 years now? Don't remember exactly when I started.
2. I vary my exercises all the time, but lately I've been favoring compounds (e.g. pullups, pushups) because I have a pretty demanding career and want to be time efficient. In terms of sets x reps, let's use pullups as an example- I usually do 6 or 7 sets to failure, leading to 50-60 total pullups.
3. 5'11" 160-ish, no idea on body fat %.
4. Don't keep track at all. I pretty much just eat what I want, and then tack on some fruits and veggies for nutrition. I'm pretty positive I get ample protein though; I read nutrition labels now and then, and some single meals I eat are >100% DV of protein.

From your answers, I gather:

- Low volume training, not enough "time under tension". Average 9-10 pullups per set is very low for a skinny guy.
- No idea how much you're lifting either
- No idea how much you're eating, most likely undereating protein. I know you're "pretty sure" but from experience, you most probably are just like other skinny guys (fat guys have the opposite issue).

Let's say if I were to reach out to a lifting/nutrition coach like Layne Norton to figure out why I can't gain weights, I'd answer like this (numbers are not mine):

1: 5 years barbell lifting experience, consistent, never missed a session
2: Best lifts: squat 300lb x5, bench 225lb x5, deadlift 400lb x3
3: 5'10", 160lb, 13.6% BF at last DEXA 4 weeks ago
4: average 2700 daily calories, P / C / F = 220 / 180 / 122

[RichieP]

There's a diff between packing in dense calories, and consuming poisonous substances (sugar, additives, preservatives).

Here's a couple of tips from somehow who was also a pretty hard gainer:

-Smash your big carb meals after a workout. That's the time to pound the sushi buffet. But otherwise dont over-do carbs, and limit them in the morning (prime fat-burning time). IF youy're getting "sleepy" after meals, that means your body's pumping out insulin and shuttling the glucose into fat cells.

-Make heavy shakes. you can get close to 1000 calories in a shake if you blend up oats, protein powder, full fat milk, chuck in some almond butter.

-Eat coconut and dark chocolate. Both very good for you AND mostly healthy saturated fat. Very calorie dense.

-Smash some extra fat with every meal. I like to just eat spoons of salted grass-fed butter (damn tasty), or a spoonful of coconut oil, or dark choc or coconut chunks.
-You dont need humongous amounts of protein... 1g/lb of bodyweight is more than enough. Actually gains peak at around 0.8g/lb. Although it sounds like you might not be hitting this. For reference, that's about 3-4 large servings of meat per day. If you eat less meat, make it up with shakes. Dont count protein from beans or veg.

-SLEEP is key to growth. Also cutting out alcohol.

-dont worry about "eating 6x a day" or other bro-science. Big meals take longer to digest, it's fine to eat big 3x a day. throw in shakes too. Get around 4000+ calories in a day and you cant NOT put weight on. Just need to make sure you're anabolic so that it goes towards muscle mass.

-Work out in a way that builds muscle. I noticed my arms explode after switching to Pavel Tstatsoulines mass protocol.... basically doing 5-6 reps per set, staying well away from failure, at least 6-9 sets, and doing it once every few days. "Getting a pump with heavy weights" is the theme, and do it ~2x a week.

Going a bit less intense and a bit more frequency/volume than most protocols really helps me get big.

-Do the best movements. Weighted bodyweight exercises (chins/dips) deadlifts, dumbell rows. Weighted or leveraged pushups (I love "pseudo-planche" pushups... google em). Lying lateral shoulder raises.

Btw your pullups are fine. A set of 20, overhand, is very solid. Not many lifters can do that. But focus on adding weight to them, not more reps...


Junk food in and of itself is no use. Sugar is just plain poison. Go with dense shakes and healthy fats for the extra calories, and get your protein in (but no need to overdo it).

[DrewP]

I very much appreciate everyone's input (especially RichieP - that is a fantastic and very actionable summary). I'm going food shopping tomorrow, and it looks like I'll have a few new items to add to my list.

I'll also be making a push to do heavier weights/fewer reps in my workouts as has been suggested.

Thanks again those who contributed tips!

[Phoenix]

OP, you're probably one of the few people who can claim to be skinnier than me. Probably.

Yes, food is the prime mover. The rate at which food is going into your stomach is no doubt significantly lower than that of other people. You have to drastically increase calorie intake, and from experience, 'just eating more' will not work. Liquids are the only way to break it. You can pour a 1000calorie shake down your throat much more easily than forcing down a 1000calorie meal.

Then, simultaneously, you must be lifting weights. You should be doing a proper weight-lifting regime around 3 times or more per week, concurrently with your new consumption routine.

Also, for purely scientific understanding reasons, you might want to read about 'ghrelin mimetics'.

(02-28-2015 09:31 AM)alexdagr81 Wrote:  

First, there's really no such thing as an ecto-,meso-, or endomorph.

Complete garbage. These are valid categories corresponding to people's natural 'unforced' bodies. I know men who are stocky muscular tanks, who don't go to the gym. One guy wasn't even familiar with the exercise names I was talking about. I also know men who are tall and thin, and who have always been like that. And I know men who have stayed at the same chubby size since I first met them. It is important to know if you fall into one of these categories, so you know what eating and exercise regime you need to undertake.

[alexdagr81]

(03-03-2015 01:38 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Complete garbage. These are valid categories corresponding to people's natural 'unforced' bodies. I know men who are stocky muscular tanks, who don't go to the gym. One guy wasn't even familiar with the exercise names I was talking about. I also know men who are tall and thin, and who have always been like that. And I know men who have stayed at the same chubby size since I first met them. It is important to know if you fall into one of these categories, so you know what eating and exercise regime you need to undertake.

The terms were based on psychology from the 1940s. The psychologists were trying to associate body with personality; it had nothing to do with bodybuilding and weren't scientific. They have only served as a crutch for people who need to find an excuse on why they aren't getting big as fast as they want to, or why they aren't losing weight as fast as they want to. People who drop these ideas are the ones that get bigger and stronger.

[The Beast1]

Go to myfitnesspal.com and enter in everything you have eaten for 2-3 days. It doesn't matter what you think you're getting. Enter it in on this website as best you can and report back with the findings.

Focus on the deadlift, wide grip bench, squats, and other compound moves. Go for a 5x5 until you build up some strength and muscle.

I find it odd that you've been lifting consistently for 8 years and haven't made any noticeable strength gains. It means your routine, diet, or both suck.

I wasn't far off from you when I started. 6ft tall, 160lbs, and 10% body fat. Very tall and lanky. After a year of using a personal trainer's mass routine he made for me, I went and used this routine to pack on mass:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw46.htm

Ignore the 12,8,8,6 and just do 5 sets of 5 reps until you plateau on everything. Only do back squats and deadlifts on leg day. Do a wide grip bench. It will hit your pecs more if you have long arms.

It wasn't until I tried that with 5x5 was I able to put on noticeable mass and gains. Right now, i've maxed out my newbie gains and had to try a different routine. I've been lifting consistently with 2 week vacations for about 3 years now. I'm 195 lbs at ~13-15% body fat.

[Kieran]

(03-03-2015 10:08 AM)alexdagr81 Wrote:  

(03-03-2015 01:38 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Complete garbage. These are valid categories corresponding to people's natural 'unforced' bodies. I know men who are stocky muscular tanks, who don't go to the gym. One guy wasn't even familiar with the exercise names I was talking about. I also know men who are tall and thin, and who have always been like that. And I know men who have stayed at the same chubby size since I first met them. It is important to know if you fall into one of these categories, so you know what eating and exercise regime you need to undertake.

The terms were based on psychology from the 1940s. The psychologists were trying to associate body with personality; it had nothing to do with bodybuilding and weren't scientific. They have only served as a crutch for people who need to find an excuse on why they aren't getting big as fast as they want to, or why they aren't losing weight as fast as they want to. People who drop these ideas are the ones that get bigger and stronger.

I agree that everyone can make progress and it often doesn't help to place limitations on oneself, but if you're trying to say that there aren't people that are pre-disposed towards being muscular, skinny, or fat, then you must have your eyes closed. I know people with amazing bodies that have never touched a weight in their lives, and I know people that are still pretty skinny despite doing everything right. I also know a kid that I witnessed benching 200 for 4 reps at about 150 on his first ever day in the gym (verified by his cousin who was my training partner at the time), while I know others that have been training for years, have decent training and nutrition and can barely put up 225.

Genetics play a massive part in these things, just like they do in intelligence, speed, punching power, etc.