[Dat ass]

I think strict dads actually make the worst sluts.

The other day i approached a cute girl in the bus terminal, she told me that she was seventeen and her parents don't let her go out. She was there because she ran away from home to some cheap hotels but they didn't left her stay because the underage factor. So she had to call her parents and confess her escape and where she was.

She asked me what i was soing, I said that i just get in and rented a room for vacation. Her eyes got bright and i could see that she would respond well if i offered a place to sleep, but i tought fuck it, bringing to my house a underage girl with posessive parents that i have just met? i can see at least five ways of how can end very bad, lol. I just took her number, she stopped me when i was leaving and asked me to put mine in her phone too. She never answered anyway.

I had a similar experience in a club, one girl is looking at me, i open them, one of them grabs my hand and take me to the dancefloor, we dance, she starts look at the wall and tells me to look at the camel "if you can look at the camel i would let you kiss me", she said. I said i don't see any camel, just to see how far i can go by not doing a shit. She kiss me, she tooks my head and makes me kiss her neck, she is almost having an orgasm there in the dancefloor. I said ok, it's done, tried to take her out of the club but she wouldn't let her friends, she oppened my shirt, touched my penis, rubbed her pussy against my legs, moaned and trlembled while i kissed her neck. but she just wouldn't let the fucking club.

So we finally go out, she tries to sober up as her parents were coming for her and her friends at the club. 2 minutes after they came, i'm talking to one of her friends and i turn back to her, she is making out with another dude, and then a girl. I'm like WTF. Her friends drag her and i said, ok fuck that bitch. I get into my room about 7.am and she calls me right there and starts to apologize by kissing the other people, telling me that she likes me a lot and want to see me again. I'm like uh ok. She text me a couple of days later. I told her to go out and she told me very entusiastic that we should see each other on the weekend, i'm like ok, it's done. But then she tells me she has to go with friends, because her parents don't let her go out alone, and they only let her go out on weekends. She lives in the suburbs and they bring her and take her back in car. Fuck.

My parents where very strict when i was younger too, while my schoolmates where getting drunk and smoking cigarrettes at fifteen, my parents would go frenzy when they saw me get a beer. By nineteen i had already tried more drugs the most degenerated of my schoolmates.

[Frostbite]

(02-03-2015 03:17 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Anyone else having a hard time containing their laughter?

This post represents a fundamental divide in world view.

WIA

Find it strange how there isn't a more united view on this. I think people are confusing the OP's description of a strong male figure with a clueless dictator type.

The former has a deep loving connection with his daughter but she knows very well not to cross him. The latter has a completely disconnected relationship with his daughter where he's seen as the gloom.

I would know. The former is my ex girlfriend's father, who I respect tremendously for the way he raised her. She has nothing but praise for him.

The latter is my own father. All three of my sisters hate him for his behaviour.

[WestIndianArchie]

@Frostbite, those of us who came to the game prior to the mishmash of evo psych and arch conservative politics have banged many a daughter of "good men"

Active game, the preying on a girls natural feelings and instincts, especially the feelings that defy her religion culture and upbringing is what the game is truly about.

The only way a girl doesn't do what is natural to her gender is being physically separated or mentally damaged from physical, sexual, or verbal abuse.

Where I'm from the red pill says that girls love sex, that's what they were designed for especially young college aged girls. Society attempts to hold all of female sexuality in check (as well as male), but has typically failed to do so.

Furthermore, if the ideal man is her father's image, most of us have no problem telling her to clean up her room cause it's a mess.

WIA

[RockHard]

(02-03-2015 03:45 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

@Frostbite, those of us who came to the game prior to the mishmash of evo psych and arch conservative politics have banged many a daughter of "good men"

Active game, the preying on a girls natural feelings and instincts, especially the feelings that defy her religion culture and upbringing is what the game is truly about.

The only way a girl doesn't do what is natural to her gender is being physically separated or mentally damaged from physical, sexual, or verbal abuse.

Where I'm from the red pill says that girls love sex, that's what they were designed for especially young college aged girls. Society attempts to hold all of female sexuality in check (as well as male), but has typically failed to do so.

Furthermore, if the ideal man is her father's image, most of us have no problem telling her to clean up her room cause it's a mess.

WIA

I hear you. Given the way things are the best you can hope for is to keep her N in the low single digits and not end up making ultra stupid decisions that end up with her at age 28 trolling OK Cupid looking for her white knight while her couple of brats stare vacantly at Sponge Bob reruns.

So you give guidance on how to handle girls (avoid sluts, handling bitch game), how to handle boys (tell her when she's getting gamed), teach avoidance (don't go to parties / clubs and get shitfaced, don't put yourself in risky situations). And if you hear one guy ask another for directions to the nearest pet store, run. It's like putting locks on your house. If someone wants to break in bad enough, they will. Even the Louvre's been robbed, but they still lock the doors and turn on the alarm at closing time.

Just like no game works on every girl, no parenting works on every kid. Like I said before, your kids don't read these books. But you got a kid so you gotta try. What's the alternative? C'est la vie, sloots gonna sloot?

[WestIndianArchie]

(02-03-2015 05:03 PM)RockHard Wrote:  

I hear you. Given the way things are the best you can hope for is to keep her N in the low single digits and not end up making ultra stupid decisions that end up with her at age 28 trolling OK Cupid looking for her white knight while her couple of brats stare vacantly at Sponge Bob reruns.

So you give guidance on how to handle girls (avoid sluts, handling bitch game), how to handle boys (tell her when she's getting gamed), teach avoidance (don't go to parties / clubs and get shitfaced, don't put yourself in risky situations). And if you hear one guy ask another for directions to the nearest pet store, run. It's like putting locks on your house. If someone wants to break in bad enough, they will. Even the Louvre's been robbed, but they still lock the doors and turn on the alarm at closing time.

Just like no game works on every girl, no parenting works on every kid. Like I said before, your kids don't read these books. But you got a kid so you gotta try. What's the alternative? C'est la vie, sloots gonna sloot?

I see where you're going, but I still think you're missing me.

The gist of OP's post is that a Good Male Role Model will keep a girl off the cock carousel.

What i'm saying is that sort of Islamic/50's/John Birch Society mentality - that we can use parental/familial/social/cultural means to control deep seated natural desires is foolish.

Guys want to build a fortress to keep cads out.
The reality is that you need to build a prison to keep her contained.

Again, this is one of those fundamental divides in the game.

Guys think that you're putting on an act, that you're putting on some moves, if I memorize the right words, I can basically trick a girl into sex.

The thinking goes -

She doesn't think about sex
She doesn't want sex
She certainly doesn't want sex with me,

So I have to create all these illusions to become some Mystery/James Bond/Suited Down/Entertainment Monkey

And a man's regular life prior to game only convinces him that this theorem is true.

What I'm saying, what many players have come to realize, even banned member stack-on, Is that women love sex.

Not sex with the right guy.
Not sex with a bad boy, or with a wealthy beta provider

But sex.

Indeed, if you google stuff on early childhood behavior , toddlers explore themselves all the time. Most new parents are freaked the fuck out about their perfect angel playing with their naughty bits. It's a parents job to teach them to NOT do that.

So under all that social conditioning, especially with the college age girls that RVF tends to like, they're full of hormones and they want to fuck. Maybe they don't understand those feelings are of lust, so they channel it into teen idols or crushes - but it ain't sugar and spice and everything nice. Its that reptilian brain that seeks pleasure, that mammalian brain that wants to procreate.

She hasn't been taught how to do these things,and largely learns on her own or through friends. And when some clumsy oaf of a HS sophomore, acting on his reptilian brain impulses, paws at her - she's scared and excited at the same time. Chicks float between the sexual desire and what their other duties.

Your real job as a player is to get her to tap into those feelings and help her make sense of them. When they talk about "I need a guy that knows what he's doing" - that's literally what they're talking about even if that's not what they would say if you ask them a direct question. (this is kinda why young girls are "easy", but old girls are "easy" too - the young girl is full of hormones, but the experienced girl knows and likes sex - once you hit certain parts of her unlisted sexual checklist - it's on)

I don't care if Dad is Chris Kyle reincarnated,
deep down..., no not even, just beneath the surface that daughter wants to fuck, as opposed to wanting to be in Daddy's good graces and be a good girl.

Indeed, what evo-psych tell us, what the research says, is that she wants people to think she's a good girl and benefit from that status - but she really she desire to be "bad", "very bad".

So it's not that sloots gone sloot,

They're all sloots. And I mean that in the most honest and gentle way possible.

Sex isn't bad. It's good.

WIA

[TheFinalEpic]

^^^

[dispenser]

(02-03-2015 06:36 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(...)
What i'm saying is that sort of Islamic/50's/John Birch Society mentality - that we can use parental/familial/social/cultural means to control deep seated natural desires is foolish.

Guys want to build a fortress to keep cads out.
The reality is that you need to build a prison to keep her contained.
(...)

That would basically be my tactic if I had a daughter, since I would have no problem with denying her sexual fulfillment.

Country living, no access to feminist media during her uncritical, formative stages (ages 1-12,) playdates with cousins and friends of the family, same-sex boarding schools; college hopefully unnecessary if I have by that time a social circle with enough eligible (rich) young men in it. I would be OK with her marrying someone a decade older (age 30 or less.) She could nab a graduate. I might have to spike the punch personally.
She'd likely lose her virginity during her teens in some curfew-breaking student pissup, but this approach is more about damage limitation than damage prevention. The more isolated the school, the safer her hymen. I wonder if they build them on islands.

If I don't know many men with sons, she might have to be sent off to find her own dick. In which case, maybe work experience in some more-money-than-sense field? A Cordon Bleu course? Art classes somewhere her childhood friends and cousins can breathe down her neck? Charity work? I'll solve the eligible penis problem when the time comes.

[456]

(02-03-2015 10:39 AM)GyopoPlayboy Wrote:  

So I’m having trouble sleeping right now because this flight attendant chick is making me rethink my lifestyle choice.

Not trying to rain on the parade, but isn't flight attendant kind of a suspiciously un-non-slutty job? I've heard they love to party, and they end up crashing at hotels and drinking late into the night constantly. And are rarely home. Sure that's good gf material?

[GyopoPlayboy]

(02-03-2015 06:36 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

The gist of OP's post is that a Good Male Role Model will keep a girl off the cock carousel.

No. She's getting on, and your job as a father is not to prevent that. It's to help her know how to select which ponies to get on.

(02-03-2015 06:36 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

What i'm saying is that sort of Islamic/50's/John Birch Society mentality - that we can use parental/familial/social/cultural means to control deep seated natural desires is foolish.

Islamic? Lol. Please. You exaggerate in order to make your point appear more level-headed by comparison. My point isn’t nearly that extreme, and I think you know it.

When it comes to daughters, it’s hard to find the ideal strategy that would give a father peace at night. Maybe hypocritical is the word you’re going for?

Because it probably is. Is it really so foolish for a father to raise his daughter so her ride on the cock carousel is as short as possible?

(02-03-2015 06:36 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Guys want to build a fortress to keep cads out.
The reality is that you need to build a prison to keep her contained.

That’s what I’m saying. Proper fathering means she will learn to self-contain. She builds her own “prison” because she understands the significance of boundaries because her father taught her about accountability.

A fortress is only going to make her run faster onto the cock carousel.

You misunderstand my fundamental point: father her the right way, and even when she’s experimenting on the cock carousel, she’ll know how to contain herself against 99% of the guys out there. Because her father provided her with the framework to know how to make these decisions for herself.

Again: accountability.

(02-03-2015 06:36 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

Again, this is one of those fundamental divides in the game.

Guys think that you're putting on an act, that you're putting on some moves, if I memorize the right words, I can basically trick a girl into sex.

The thinking goes -

She doesn't think about sex
She doesn't want sex
She certainly doesn't want sex with me,

So I have to create all these illusions to become some Mystery/James Bond/Suited Down/Entertainment Monkey

And a man's regular life prior to game only convinces him that this theorem is true.

What I'm saying, what many players have come to realize, even banned member stack-on, Is that women love sex.

Not sex with the right guy.
Not sex with a bad boy, or with a wealthy beta provider

But sex.

This is typical anti-blue pill ranting. I, and probably everybody else here, don't disagree with this at all. You're preaching to the choir. However, this shows you fundamentally misunderstood my point.

Not trying to control the daughter's natural sexual urges. She's gonna fuck who she wants to fuck. Instead of letting society influence her by telling her justin bieber is hot or boybands are worth ogling, the father should be aware that he is the very FIRST influence she is going to come under. Let your influence as a father be stronger than that of society. Will it always work? Probably not in the short-term, especially in her teen years. But it can down the line.

(02-03-2015 06:36 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

I don't care if Dad is Chris Kyle reincarnated,
deep down..., no not even, just beneath the surface that daughter wants to fuck, as opposed to wanting to be in Daddy's good graces and be a good girl.

Sex isn't bad. It's good.

This is probably the source of your misunderstanding.

You're not trying to create "Daddy's good little girl."

You're trying to create a smart independent woman who knows how to avoid the majority of guys out there and want to seek out the few guys who can make her feel the way her father did with his strong leadership and influence and want to get married/settle down.

Again, not creating a fortress. Influencing her to create her own prison where she's got the lock and key.

[WestIndianArchie]

(02-03-2015 09:35 PM)GyopoPlayboy Wrote:  

You're trying to create a smart independent woman who knows how to avoid the majority of guys out there and want to seek out the few guys who can make her feel the way her father did with his strong leadership and influence and want to get married/settle down.

Again, not creating a fortress. Influencing her to create her own prison where she's got the lock and key.

Like I said above, most of us have pumped and dumped these chicks.

Believe me, I look nothing like the fathers of many of the women I date.

One can play the latent paternal role to get the panties, or one can go completely opposite.

How many times has a chick referred to a player as "fun" to her friends?
How many of us have banged a chick with a serious boyfriend, a "better" man than ourselves?

All the time.

A good dad can lead a chick to the convent, but he can't make her become a nun.

What a lot of pick up theories miss, is the idea that a woman has AGENCY.
She has her own mind
She can make her own decisions.

That's why we have concepts like the "frivorce" (frivolous divorce for the readers)
A woman with kids, a good husband a good life, can meet some Cad at work, and he can ignite those flames.

Despite all the indications that a guy is a bad bet, a chick will throw away her life in a second.

That's the game.
There's no eternal defense for that.

It's not like these women make rational and deliberate decisions on who to fuck.
It's BECAUSE a woman does not make rational nor deliberate decisons on who to fuck that we exist.

The fact that you've got players HERE in this very post saying that these are great girls - only tells you that the daddy line of defense is weak. A dude only needs to put on the act, or tug on those ideals and the panties drop. And it's always better to be the guy that her Mama warned her about.

WIA

[GyopoPlayboy]

(02-03-2015 10:00 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

It's not like these women make rational and deliberate decisions on who to fuck.
It's BECAUSE a woman does not make rational nor deliberate decisons on who to fuck that we exist.

The fact that you've got players HERE in this very post saying that these are great girls - only tells you that the daddy line of defense is weak. A dude only needs to put on the act, or tug on those ideals and the panties drop. And it's always better to be the guy that her Mama warned her about.

preaching to the choir again. no disagreement here at all with anything written above.

but if you had a daughter, Archie, how would you raise her? curious to know. would you do it the way I outlined in my OP? or you just gonna let her be? cuz that's the point i'm trying to make.

I get that you're a big baller player. But from the very beginning, this was a post aimed at guys trying to become dads/are already dads. You're writing from the POV of a player, when this post was really for the guys with daughters/want kids.

How to raise daughters...not, Are "good" girls still sluts on the inside.

[WestIndianArchie]

(02-04-2015 12:06 AM)GyopoPlayboy Wrote:  

preaching to the choir again. no disagreement here at all with anything written above.

but if you had a daughter, Archie, how would you raise her? curious to know. would you do it the way I outlined in my OP? or you just gonna let her be?

I get that you're a big baller player. But from the very beginning, this was a post aimed at guys trying to become dads/are already dads. How to raise daughters...not, Are "good" girls still sluts on the inside.

Big Baller I am now?



Game works because women are not logical.
It works because they are emotional,
because they aren't deliberate,
because they'll make a snap decision and justify it later.

So how does a logical person reason with a person that doesn't adhere to logic?

Especially a pre-teen girl who just had her first period?

"Dad, you really dropped some science on the Game. No way am I gonna fall for the okeydoke. 'Preciate that Pimpin'! "

Let's imagine that you lead by example.

Player shows himself to be a great family man.
- he brings home the bacon
- fixes things around the house
- mows the lawn
- makes the bbq
- teaches the kids to play baseball

But the player also
- fucks his wife regularly
- keeps her in check, and she submits to his will
- has her cooking, cleaning, and caring for the family and the house

If the player's daughter learns by the example that her parents set, she sets herself up to be subservient to a strong man.

A strong man isn't necessarily a good one. And what we know about the game is that chicks will submit to a strong bad man rather than a weak good one.

So if you're gonna bring a girl into this world, all you can do is be the best husband/father that you can, show her the game, and then pray.

She has agency though.
She can make up her own mind.

You've prepared her, but that's all you can do.

(same thing is to be said for your sons)

Being blessed with a daughter is prize after a life of banging chicks.

WIA

[GyopoPlayboy]

(02-04-2015 01:23 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

So if you're gonna bring a girl into this world, all you can do is be the best husband/father that you can, show her the game, and then pray.

She has agency though.
She can make up her own mind.

You've prepared her, but that's all you can do.

Right there.

That's what we're talking about on this thread.

How to prepare her.

So when you say, "You've prepared her, but that's all you can do," I say: Ok, let's break down HOW to prepare her. I think I did just that. I think what I outlined is literally the best way a man can go if he has a daughter.

If you know of a better way, don't hesitate to share. Drop some knowledge. I don't know the truth, I'm only extrapolating from experiences, so I'm never married to my theories.

[Frostbite]

WIA and OP, I think you are misunderstanding each other.

Maybe a more consolidated argument would be what are the differences between a girl with an absent / weak father, and one with a strong (not tyrannical) father?

Are there any?

Is the latter more selective about the character of men she chooses?

Does the former see sex as filling an emotional void / male connection that she lacked as she grew up? (and therefore more promiscuous)

Is the latter more stable / level headed in an LTR? Is the former more clingy / emotionally volatile?

As WIA said, you can't change the inherent nature of a woman to want to bear children / have sex

But as OP states, you can guide her in a direction that will coerce her to make good choices and see through the bullshit of most guys with an obvious pump and dump mentality.

The aim is not to prevent her from having sex..

but that, for example, before she marries, she sleeps with four people who she feels are of good enough character to access her pussy, as opposed to forty plebs who just happen to show her enough attention for her to fill the void created with the lack of a male figure.

People with a player mentality like us (the ability to appear charming on the outside, with a DGAF attitude on the inside) are a force to be reckoned with. That's why we can adapt, and pump and dump these strong character types with no second thought.

But I would go so far as to say, for the majority of guys, there is a huge difference between the easiness and speed of the lay between these two types.

[heavy]

WIA, your post of the day, post #30...I teared up it was so beautiful.

"What I'm saying, what many players have come to realize, even banned member stack-on, Is that women love sex."

Despite the perversion of stack-on, what you said is true.

Edit: The only thing I wondered reading your post...Girls love sex. They're all sloots.

I see what you mean, the they're all sloots. But I see that on a fundamental core personality trait of women, not necessarily in their behavior.

It's not always reflected in their count, ie behavior. If I run into a hot 24 year old who was a virgin until 19 then had 1 serious 5 yr bf, she may be a sloot bc all girls are, but she hasn't behaved that way.

Perhaps that's the difference. That the positives don't make the woman, the lack of negatives makes the woman. Strict dad daughters aren't good, but...

- Low notch count
- No tats
- No piercings
- Not bitter
- Not controlling
- Not mannish

Feminine = lack of masculine traits

Anywho, just some reflections from your post of the day.

[draketton]

How many of you hang out with the dads of the girls you bang on a regular basis?

I sure don't.

I'd feel like an idiot speculating about this subject matter.

[WestIndianArchie]

(02-04-2015 03:16 AM)GyopoPlayboy Wrote:  

(02-04-2015 01:23 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

So if you're gonna bring a girl into this world, all you can do is be the best husband/father that you can, show her the game, and then pray.

She has agency though.
She can make up her own mind.

You've prepared her, but that's all you can do.

Right there.

That's what we're talking about on this thread.

How to prepare her.

So when you say, "You've prepared her, but that's all you can do," I say: Ok, let's break down HOW to prepare her. I think I did just that. I think what I outlined is literally the best way a man can go if he has a daughter.

If you know of a better way, don't hesitate to share. Drop some knowledge. I don't know the truth, I'm only extrapolating from experiences, so I'm never married to my theories.

You're seriously asking how to stop nature.
How do I stop a lion from roaring?

My understanding of the game might be better than the next man, and I can break down how average dudes are going to try to get in her pants, as well as skilled dudes.

I would do this through story, example, and by role playing.
I'd incorporate Mom as well, provided we have a good relationship.

But all i'm doing is delivering my daughter to players. By dropping jewels on our side of the game, I'm not really giving her tools to discern what a "good guy" is.

[WestIndianArchie]

The underlying question is the uncomfortable one.

Who do you want your daughter to fuck?

She's going to ride the cock carousel. Like Gyopo said, you want her to pick the right pony and fewer of them. Less partners is better for her long term outlook

You need to figure out what kind of man are you going to let anal-ize your princess.

So who's it going to be?

Some insufferable engineer in a smart looking suit?
A guy with a heart of gold and no killer instinct when it comes to making his way in the world?
Some douchebag on track to run a hedgefund some day?
God forbid, some foreigner?

Then you design your program with that guy in mind.

WIA

[Downtown]

When I meet girls like you described with 'strong dads' I'm not even attracted to them.

I'm only attracted to girls with "daddy issues"

[Downtown]

As a father though, it all starts when they are babies. I've been super strict with all three of my kids when it comes to manners, cleaning up, being responsible, etc. But when it comes time for ice cream or fun, I definitely spoil them and am "cool dad."

But they won't even touch the ice cream the next day without asking me first and they are around ten years old.

Day after halloween and they still ask me if they can eat some of their candy.

And everyone always compliments me on their behavior and manners.

But if you don't start from day one, its impossible later.

You can have lost them for good by age two from what I've seen.

All this is to say nothing on the subject of how to keep your daughter from being a slut.

[zerocool]

WIA dropping some truth here, for the most part.

To think that there exists a fool proof strategy to raise our daughters to somehow make decisions based on logic and reason defies both the fundamentals of human behavior and evolution. You can however instill good manners, femininity, responsibility, guide them in the right direction, and role model what a good LTR should look like. Rollo's got some good stuff on being a red pill husband/parent.

For the other Dads of daughters read the book Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters. Some valuable insights.

[Suits]

I don't think that strict is the answer -- but authenticity might be.

My two sisters are typical dumb girls. Prone to bitchy behaviour, drama seeking and stupid girl logic.

However, they both married excellent men and are completely committed to them.

I attribute this to my father's consistent stand for loving and taking care of our mom, committing himself to his family like the best of betas, but never being a push over. Once he made a decision, no one could change his mind and my mom would always back him up publicly.

We didn't have a lot of rules set in stone growing up, but we did know what behaviour was expected of us.

To be honest, my childhood was far from something that I look back on fondly, but my sisters turned out to be among the best marriage material I know -- and that's not because either of them are always the most pleasant of people.

But they did learn family values, because it was modelled for them by both of my parent's selfless and sacrificial behaviour on a daily basis.

[Suits]

----

[GyopoPlayboy]

(02-04-2015 01:15 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

The underlying question is the uncomfortable one.

Yes it is.

WestIndianArchie Wrote:

Who do you want your daughter to fuck?

She's going to ride the cock carousel. Like Gyopo said, you want her to pick the right pony and fewer of them. Less partners is better for her long term outlook

Yep.

WestIndianArchie Wrote:

You need to figure out what kind of man are you going to let anal-ize your princess.

Yep.

WestIndianArchie Wrote:

So who's it going to be?

Some insufferable engineer in a smart looking suit?
A guy with a heart of gold and no killer instinct when it comes to making his way in the world?
Some douchebag on track to run a hedgefund some day?
God forbid, some foreigner?

Then you design your program with that guy in mind.

that's the whole point of this thread amigo.

[Pride male]

So is the consensus around here that our daughters should stay away from dark triad alphas and settle down with boring but responsible betas? I would prefer that.