[Lucky]

I was watching a series of Harvard philosophy lectures and the topic of birth order was raised. Professor Sandel noted that psychologists have found that first-borns tend to be more driven and successful. He then asked the class how many were first-borns and 90% of the students raised their hands; Sandel himself is also a first born.

I did a little reading on the subject, here is a basic overview:

First born are perfectionists, reliable, conscientious, list makers, well-organized, natural leaders, critical, and serious. These qualities are typically attributed to mom or dad unconsciously placing the firstborn into a leader role

Middle child tends to be a mediator, diplomatic, avoids conflict, loyal to peers, has many friends, and is independent.

Last-born typically are manipulative, charming, blames others, attention seekers, natural salesperson, engaging, affectionate, etc.

Since many of us are spending time with family for the holidays I thought this would be an interesting topic.

I'm a middle child, but by the time I came along my older siblings had left. I was basically the oldest in the family with one younger sister.

What about you guys? I suspect there aren't many last-borns on the forum but I could be wrong.

[iop890]

I have one older brother, but he's 19 years older than me and we never lived in the same house. So effectively I'm an only child.

[godfather dust]

I'm the oldest but I've struggled with a bad case of bipolar up until the past couple years when some medication finally clicked. For this reason I do not fit the description of the oldest sibling you described.

And no, I am not faking it. I hear voices in my head when I get in the manic phase and am visibly insane to the outside world.

[bacon]

Birth order theory was brought up before in another thread sans the poll. Its an interesting theory that seems to have some merit.

Quote:

"Only-borns

Positives: Only-borns are the mega-movers of the world. They are task-orientated; tend to be extremely well organised, highly conscientious and dependable. They are keen on facts, ideas and details and feel extremely comfortable with responsibility.

Negatives: The negative characteristics of only-borns can be tough to handle. They are often unforgiving, very demanding, hate to admit they're wrong and usually don't accept criticism well. To others, they seem very sensitive and indeed, their feelings are easily hurt.

First-borns

Positives: They are natural leaders and often high achievers. The majority of politicians, spokespersons and managing directors are first-borns. They frequently live with a sense of entitlement and even superiority. They often come in two flavours: compliant nurturers/caregivers or aggressive movers and shakers.

Both are in control; they just use different methods. As a rule, first-borns are picky, precise people - they pay attention to detail - tend to be punctual, organised, and competent. They want to see things done right the first time. They don't like surprises.

Negatives: They are often moody and occasionally lack sensitivity. They can be intimidating, particularly by pushing people too hard or refusing to take no for an answer.

Sometimes they can be a bit 'know-it-all', and often they are poor at delegating - largely because they don't trust other people as much as they trust themselves. They also tend to be bossy, perfectionists and overly-conscientious.

Middle-Borns

Positives: The classic middle-born is very relational, tends to be a people-pleaser and usually hates confrontation. Their basic need is to keep life smooth and their motto might be 'peace at any price'. They are usually very calm, will roll with the punches and are amiable, down-to-earth and great listeners. They are skilled at seeing both sides of a problem and eager to make everybody happy. That makes them good mediators and negotiators.

Negatives: They tend to be less driven than first-borns, but are much more eager to be liked - or at least be happy with them. They have a difficult time setting boundaries. They can drift into becoming 'co-dependent' as they try to please everybody. They are not good at making decisions that will offend others. They also tend to blame themselves when others fail.

Last-Borns

Positives: Last-borns are the world's cheerleaders. You have strong people skills and love to entertain and talk to others. You make friends easily and immediately make others feel at home. You're an extrovert, energised by the presence of other people and you're probably not afraid to take risks.

Negatives: Last-borns tend to get bored quickly. They have a strong fear of rejection and a short attention span. When the fun stops, they've had enough and want to check out. To some extent they're self-centred. They may harbour unrealistic expectations of finding a relationship that is always fun - and of course, such relationships simply do not last."

[Deluge]

Quote:

First born are perfectionists, reliable, conscientious, list makers, well-organized, natural leaders, critical, and serious.

Sounds like me, but not sure if srs.

[Kickb]

I don't think any those describe me or my older/younger brother.

My older brother is the opposite of the description
I'm in the middle but more like a mix of number 1 and number 2. Just take out 'non confrontational and perfectionist'
My little brother is basically a blue collar version of me.

[DJ-Matt]

(12-26-2014 06:58 PM)Lucky Wrote:  

Last-born typically are manipulative, charming, blames others, attention seekers, natural salesperson, engaging, affectionate, etc.

That's a little bit correct, but I'm a horrible salesperson.

[Nonpareil]

Oldest in my immediate family (I have a sister who is about two years younger than me), oldest in the extended family as well (my oldest cousin is 24).

Indeed a certain amount of privilege comes my way, but at the same time someone needs help or has a problem, who's the first person they call?

[malakaix]

I can see this dynamic perfectly in my cousins (3 brothers). The first born is highly successful and independent, owns two house's and a high paying career. The second born lives with his mother, has quite a good career but often feels like a victim of the world.. argues for attention and feels like no one takes him seriously. The last born is pretty much the epitome of that description.. he seeks out attention, has a crude sense of humour, very social and easily makes friends.. but his jobs have jumped all around the place, he has no discipline when it comes to money.

As for myself.. i'm a 1st born but im not sure i fit the above description entirely.. i wouldn't say im a perfectionist and out of my younger brother and all my cousins.. i'm the only one without a degree or trade qualification, but i am extremely good at money management and interested in business and self employment.. its hard for me to work under authority.

[NorthxNorthwest]

I'm the youngest and I don't fit the description at all, more of a combination of 1st and middle. This is dead on for my older half siblings though.

I'm not sure if it's been replicated recently but IQ is supposedly affected by birth order as well: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/21/scienc...ref=slogin

[Hedonistic Traveler]

(12-26-2014 07:09 PM)bacon Wrote:  

Middle-Borns

Positives: The classic middle-born is very relational, tends to be a people-pleaser and usually hates confrontation. Their basic need is to keep life smooth and their motto might be 'peace at any price'. They are usually very calm, will roll with the punches and are amiable, down-to-earth and great listeners. They are skilled at seeing both sides of a problem and eager to make everybody happy. That makes them good mediators and negotiators.

I'm number 6 of 10. The last in a long-line of oversized Catholic families.

Birth order personality tests are a little-hit-or-miss. I do agree that I have put in a lot of time resolving fights between family members, especially because I was born in the middle of a stretch of six girls. That's not always the case though.

In my experience only-children are about as far from "mega-movers" as you can be. Most are spoiled by helicopter parents and lack the social skills that you get from spending time with siblings. Maybe historically they were more successful, but every only-child I know below the age of 25 is a major fuck-up.

[Lucky]

(12-26-2014 07:04 PM)iop890 Wrote:  

I have one older brother, but he's 19 years older than me and we never lived in the same house. So effectively I'm an only child.

This is similar to my situation; I have 2 much older siblings and was raised as the oldest. The traits for the oldest are more accurate for me. I wonder how much nature/genetics influences one's "birth order personality" or if it is mostly about how you are raised in a family dynamic. The old nature/nurture question.

More interesting findings from Scientific American:

-In 2007 Norwegian epidemiologists found that the more older siblings one has, the lower one’s IQ.

-In 2009 the author of the article found that birth order influences whom we choose as friends and spouses. Firstborns are more likely to associate with firstborns, middle-borns with middle-borns, last-borns with last-borns, and only children with only children.

[britchard]

I agree with Hedonistic Traveller in that only-childs are often spoilt and often not very empathetic.

I'm a first-born, and I can definitely see myself in some of those characteristics listed. I'm driven, like being a leader and trust myself far more than others.

As for second-borns, I can agree that they are the most sociable. They tend to do reasonably well in life.

Last-borns, in my opinion, are far better at 'skilful' sports such as baseball, basketball, soccer and golf. This is usually because they practice more with older brothers and therefore are better at the same age.

[Chaos]

I'm a last born.
There might be more truth in this than what I'm ready to admit

I'm for sure a risktaker and I also get bored quickly.
Won't deny that.

Quote:

Last-Borns

Positives: Last-borns are the world's cheerleaders. You have strong people skills and love to entertain and talk to others. You make friends easily and immediately make others feel at home. You're an extrovert, energised by the presence of other people and you're probably not afraid to take risks.

Negatives: Last-borns tend to get bored quickly. They have a strong fear of rejection and a short attention span. When the fun stops, they've had enough and want to check out. To some extent they're self-centred. They may harbour unrealistic expectations of finding a relationship that is always fun - and of course, such relationships simply do not last."

[Hardy Daytona]

It's......well, to be honest it's a little disconcerting to see my personality and psychology summed up in a few sentences.

I'm the youngest of 4 by 6 years. The elder 3 are only separated by 2, so that says something about my parents motivation, assuming there was one at all.

In the workplace, they are able to read others well
Unquestionably. From just a few encounters I can tell when somebody's lying, uncomfortable, exaggerating or disinterested.
Like Christopher Walken said in True Romance - a guy's got 17 different pantomimes when he lies, girls got 20. If you know them like you know your own face, they beat lie detectors all to hell.
I could even tell when an ex was outright lying to me without even looking at her face because of the inflections in her voice.

Typically are manipulative, charming, blames others, attention seekers, natural salesperson, engaging, affectionate, etc.
Manipulative, sometimes. I don't find myself in situations where I need to exploit another individual very often, but when it arises I'm not above passive-aggresive behaviour or emotional manipulation.
Charming, yes. Arguably due more to nurture than nature, I've been told I'm very polite and can flatter when necessary.
Blames others, yes. I've been trying to reign that in since taking the red pill but it's difficult not to be so conscious of my surroundings and environment.
Attention seeker, yes, especially during my teenage years. Being part of a large family and going to a large school, I did whatever I could to stand out from the crowd. I remember one afternoon when a group of ex-servicemen came to my school to do some drills for ~50/60 of the students for P.E. and being the puny weakling I was at the time I half-assed it. When it came to the end we had to do an 800m jog and I decided to go all-out from the very start as I still had some energy conserved. As soon as that whistle went I was out in front like a bolt and pumping my little legs with everything I had. It lasted for a whopping 30 seconds before fatigue set in and I fell like a rock to the back of the herd, but for that brief period I felt like a king among my peers and wouldn't have traded it for anything, including the taunts and jeers I got afterwards.
Natural salesperson, yes. My work requires it and I like to rabble on while making myself sound knowledgeable so it goes hand-in-hand.
Engaging and affectionate, yes. I wear my heart on my sleeve far too often and need emotional validation more often that can be considered necessary to maintain frame in any kind of interaction.
I wish I could say I'm working on it, but that's be a lie. It feels nice.

Last-borns are the world's cheerleaders. You have strong people skills and love to entertain and talk to others.
Big ol' check. There's nothing quite like the endorphin high I get with the satisfaction of being able to make a room full of people laugh with nothing but the power of my personality.

You make friends easily and immediately make others feel at home.
Also true, but that's steeply on the decline.
I'm wary of people who appeal to my emotions these days since they rarely appeal to my interests. That and the fact that most of the blue-pill men I encounter these days don't share the same values as me means that I form fewer friendships than in the past.

You're an extrovert, energised by the presence of other people and you're probably not afraid to take risks.
Also true. Things that other might balk at, like getting up on stage or having my pictures taken, really excite me. And I deeply enjoy the satisfaction of doing something that other people wouldn't such as abseiling or parachuting.
I won't deny the superiority complex arises from time to time. Also satisfying, if misguided/misplaced.

Last-borns tend to get bored quickly.
True. I usually temper it with pacing but waiting for something beyond my control for an absurd amount of time just sends me round the bend.
I feel like I have to keep moving, working towards a mission goal all the time or I lose all sense of momentum.

They have a strong fear of rejection and a short attention span.
I need a rubber stamp of brobdingnagian size for this one.
It's not a fear so much as terror. I'm trying to overcome it, but damn it all if it isn't a slow process.
As for the short attention span, not so much. If it's an activity or subject that holds my interest then I can be immersed for hours. Otherwise I'll dismiss it in a matter of minutes.

To some extent they're self-centred.
50/50. I'll go out of my way for a friend or a cause, but only if it's something I want to do and really believe in.

They may harbour unrealistic expectations of finding a relationship that is always fun - and of course, such relationships simply do not last.
The relationship equivalent of keeping up with the Jones'.
I'll concede to that one. When I'm being bombarded with information about my peers getting married or having children there is a part of me that laments missing out on the experience.
But then I remember that it's far more likely than not to go south, and when it does I'll be rolling in schadenfreude.


That's enough self-analysis for one day.

[Andreas]

Does the lecture talk about age gaps, mixed siblings (brothers and sisters) and how much they matter?

Looking at the overview it seems more like nurture over nature to me.

[Orion]

Last born

[Roosh]

The descriptions are classic cold reading. They all could apply to you in equal measure if you mix them up.

Statistically there are more first bornes in the world than others, so if you randomly choose any successful person, he's likely to be a first borne.

[Coldfire]

I'm the last of four and The youngest description doesn't match me at all

[Lucky]

(12-27-2014 08:12 PM)Andreas Wrote:  

Does the lecture talk about age gaps, mixed siblings (brothers and sisters) and how much they matter?

Looking at the overview it seems more like nurture over nature to me.

No, it's a philosophy lecture on John Rawls. The professor is talking about the idea of fairness and notes that something one has no control over, their order of birth, alters their odds of success. He also has students debate the idea of fairness and how much one should help others if they happen to be born with an advantage. It's a great series, the Professor allows all sides to weigh-in.

(12-27-2014 09:14 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

The descriptions are classic cold reading. They all could apply to you in equal measure if you mix them up.

Statistically there are more first bornes in the world than others, so if you randomly choose any successful person, he's likely to be a first borne.

True. And if you take a group of siblings, the most successful/intelligent among them tend to be the oldest.

In a study from 1973 where researchers measured the intelligence of Dutch brothers they found older siblings tend to score higher.

-Within each family size (i) firstborns always scored better on the Raven than did later borns; and (ii) with few inconsistencies, there was a gradient of declining scores with rising birth order, so that firstborns scored better than secondborns, who in turn scored better than thirdborns, and so forth.

-In general, as family size increased, there was a decrease in Raven performance within any particular birth order position." For example, a thirdborn born child from a 3-child family would be expected to score higher than a thirdborn child from a 4-child family. A thirdborn child from a 5-child family would be expected to score even lower, and so on.

Another study analyzed 100,000 Norwegian brothers and found that first-borns on average had an IQ 2.3 points higher than their younger brothers (the IQs were all taken when the brothers were 18 or 19, so they compare the older brother’s score at that age to the younger brother’s score when he reached that same age).

[travolta]

(12-26-2014 06:58 PM)Lucky Wrote:  

I was watching a series of Harvard philosophy lectures and the topic of birth order was raised. Professor Sandel noted that psychologists have found that first-borns tend to be more driven and successful. He then asked the class how many were first-borns and 90% of the students raised their hands; Sandel himself is also a first born.

I did a little reading on the subject, here is a basic overview:

First born are perfectionists, reliable, conscientious, list makers, well-organized, natural leaders, critical, and serious. These qualities are typically attributed to mom or dad unconsciously placing the firstborn into a leader role

Middle child tends to be a mediator, diplomatic, avoids conflict, loyal to peers, has many friends, and is independent.

Last-born typically are manipulative, charming, blames others, attention seekers, natural salesperson, engaging, affectionate, etc.

Sounds like some serious broscience

[Libertas]

(12-26-2014 06:58 PM)Lucky Wrote:  

First born are perfectionists, reliable, conscientious, list makers, well-organized, natural leaders, critical, and serious. These qualities are typically attributed to mom or dad unconsciously placing the firstborn into a leader role

Last-born typically are manipulative, charming, blames others, attention seekers, natural salesperson, engaging, affectionate, etc.

Describes me (first born) and my younger brother pretty well.

I don't really attribute this to us being first or last born though.

[Cr33pin]

(12-26-2014 06:58 PM)Lucky Wrote:  

Last-born typically are manipulative, charming, blames others, attention seekers, natural salesperson, engaging, affectionate, etc.

[Radio One]

Last-born, am neither a natural salesperson (though have become more persuasive as I've gotten older) nor do I blame others- I blame myself more than anything or anyone. I show half the qualities of the last-born and half of the first-born.

Strangely enough, my older brothers have some of the qualities of the last-born... but nothing more. We didn't grow up with both parents so I'd guess a lot of this goes out the window in that scenario.

[RockHard]

(12-26-2014 06:58 PM)Lucky Wrote:  

Last-born typically are manipulative, charming, blames others, attention seekers, natural salesperson, engaging, affectionate, etc.

The rap on last borns are that they're more attention seeking. I'm the youngest but I was a serious introvert until my late 30s - basically until I discovered game. OTOH, my whole family are introverts so I come by it honestly.

Like Roosh said, this is excellent cold read stuff. I definitely use the stereotypes: "You're so bossy, you must be the oldest child", "you're so attention-hungry, are you the youngest child?"